[Sangman]

Tea Monster, on Feb 15 2010, 07:10 PM, said:

I think Sangman is talking about something like Halo 3's 'Sandbox' map.

Huh? Nah that map is pretty lame actually. (before you ask yes I've played it with some friends, then again it's a map intended for more than 4 players)

[Jblade]

Stuff's looking good Rusty!

and Commander sorry but 90% of the time somebody criticises your work you just come up with excuses rather than actually accepting it. What Geoffrey is saying is 100% right.

[The Commander]

James, on Feb 16 2010, 11:48 AM, said:

and Commander sorry but 90% of the time somebody criticises your work you just come up with excuses rather than actually accepting it. What Geoffrey is saying is 100% right.

I'm fine with criticism, but getting it before the person has tried the release it is another thing. Though this could be due to Geoffrey seeing this thread before the other one, I am not sure.
I knew full well that I was going to get this from Geoff, Sang and the usual cast of nitpickers when this came out, it's like clock work. So it's nothing new.

Mapping has never been a strong point of mine but I wouldn't go a far to say this map has no shading or no details.

[Mblackwell]

He's just sharing his prototyping. You should be more worried about the game mechanics in his mod at this point than the map looking super awesome.

[Mblackwell]

Rusty Nails, on Feb 15 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

Getting close to open beta!

Nice. Glad to see that work being put to use. That version was probably the most solid design. Now everyone else gets to see some of it.

[Sangman]

The Commander, on Feb 16 2010, 12:00 AM, said:

the usual cast of nitpickers

Nice.

Quote

He's just sharing his prototyping. You should be more worried about the game mechanics in his mod at this point than the map looking super awesome.

True but that doesn't mean Geoffrey's points are invalid. Even if you deliver a prototype of something you need to at least sugarcoat it a bit. I mean, imagine an AMC TC prototype where all you have is the CON code test map.

[Danukem]

If you show something -- at any stage -- and you don't tell people what the purpose of showing it is, then any flaw is fair game for criticism. That's why, if I were releasing a "prototype" of something, I would make it clear what still needed to be done and what I thought was finished, so that people wouldn't waste their time (and mine) with predictable criticism of things I already knew to be broken.

[Mblackwell]

True enough, but I've done that in the past and people were still rather confused. It doesn't really matter one way or the other, it is what it is. It does say right on his thread title "Tech Demo".

[Tea Monster]

If you post something on a forum, people will crit, that's what it's for.

Saying that, it is the job of the Poster to determine when someone is putting forth a valid crit or is just whining for the sake of hearing their own voice. There is a LOT of people jumping up and down and screaming "It's not quite exactly the right shade of tan!!!!!" on this forum.

[Sebastian]

Mblackwell, on Feb 15 2010, 05:18 PM, said:

Nice. Glad to see that work being put to use. That version was probably the most solid design. Now everyone else gets to see some of it.

Yeah, trying not to get overly ambitious. What's left is mostly just porting old code, the multiplayer invasion code from Amc Tc and presto. Here's a short video:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jo1VdiQRmbY

The terminals you see in the video are the objectives you must download data from in the map. All the while aliens invade. Should be a hectic co-op experience!
edit: Bollocks. Noticed the ceiling sprite light is off.

[Sangman]

Heh that's pretty cool, you should give the aliens different footstep sounds though. Also they should be just a bit faster! Not enough to have them be OOMPH IN YOUR FACE all the time, but just fast enough so you can't outrun them. Also maybe they should break through doors rather than open them.

[Sebastian]

Yeah I forgot to mention the footsteps. Right now they are the same as the players, but I'll replace them with a subtle 'thud' instead. I actually have the sound effects lying around, just haven't coded them in yet..

There was also a plan to do all the doors as sprites so they can all be destroyed but it might complicate things when there's an alien right on the other side when you're close as they can attack right through it. It can be worked around I guess, but I might need more help on the coding for that one. It's definitely something I'd like to see implemented further down the pipe!

I like that they're slow. It shows that they're methodical as their increasing numbers will surely overthrow you over time. Kinda how shambling zombies tend to be way more frightening than running ones. You know that they'll eventually get you in the end. However if an alien gets up close just enough to scratch you, they'll charge at you four times the speed and can only be stopped if you hurt them. This can also happen randomly in their code, as you can see one of them does in the video, but the chances of it occuring randomly are stretched very thin.

[Tea Monster]

Its looking amazing.

To improve it, I'd update the HUD weapons to models and improve the animation on the alien models though.

It's really strange, but really nice, to see all the lighting effects and think "This is EDuke!!!"

[Mblackwell]

Rusty Nails, on Feb 16 2010, 03:22 PM, said:

Yeah, trying not to get overly ambitious. What's left is mostly just porting old code, the multiplayer invasion code from Amc Tc and presto. Here's a short video:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jo1VdiQRmbY

The terminals you see in the video are the objectives you must download data from in the map. All the while aliens invade. Should be a hectic co-op experience!
edit: Bollocks. Noticed the ceiling sprite light is off.

Bah, the guys above me are wrong, don't change a thing. It's simple but clean. It looks exactly like (and seems to play like) Aliens Online which can only be a good thing.

[Danukem]

I would make their running animation a little faster, but without actually increasing their movement speed (reduce the delay in the action definition). Right now it looks odd, like they slowly tip-toeing (I think that's what Tea Monster was noticing when he suggested changing their animation). Also, the standard Duke SQUISHED sound is used too much -- every time one of them dies. I suggest having several different alien death sounds and playing them randomly.

[Sobek]

Conversely, I would increase their running speed dramatically. From watching that video, you seemed entirely safe... Shoot their face for a bit, run across the room, carelessly shoot them in the face some more, then just walk away and do as you please.

It all looked far too easy. I would definitely make them faster but weaker, do more damage and make your gun a tad more powerful. That way, they come at you really fast in little swarms but you can mow through them just like in the movies... In this case, with their increased damage and speed, it reinforces a sense of mortality upon the player and makes fast reactions all the more important.

Otherwise I just don't see any chance of building tension. I'd have a hard time being scared of encountering more of them because it seems I could just walk away and take my time knocking the crap out of them from afar. I can't comment on the sounds - no speakers here at present.

Loved the video though, the level design (lighting in particular) look excellent

[Danukem]

Sobek, on Feb 16 2010, 11:05 PM, said:

Conversely, I would increase their running speed dramatically. From watching that video, you seemed entirely safe... Shoot their face for a bit, run across the room, carelessly shoot them in the face some more, then just walk away and do as you please.

It all looked far too easy. I would definitely make them faster but weaker, do more damage and make your gun a tad more powerful. That way, they come at you really fast in little swarms but you can mow through them just like in the movies... In this case, with their increased damage and speed, it reinforces a sense of mortality upon the player and makes fast reactions all the more important.

Otherwise I just don't see any chance of building tension. I'd have a hard time being scared of encountering more of them because it seems I could just walk away and take my time knocking the crap out of them from afar.

Making them faster and weaker would be a legit choice, but there is also merit to the slow zombie style of gameplay that Rusty wants. As he was saying, the aliens do sometimes have a burst of speed, and that makes them all dangerous. Also, you can run out of ammo, and you can have difficulty holding them off when they are coming at you from different directions. Depending on the map design, there may be situations where the player can get cornered and simply can't shoot them fast enough. Having said that, there is some question as to whether the slow zombie style of gameplay will be acceptable to players for this particular type of alien, which people are used to seeing move very fast. One thing that would really harm the gameplay is if Duke's jumping is unmodified, because then the player can jump on their heads and run right over them. I would suggest lowering the player's jumping height to a more realistic level and also decreasing his running speed from the absurdly fast default speed (if that hasn't been done already).

[Sobek]

Excellent points. I suppose one of the biggest factors is, as you mentioned, people's expectations of how such aliens are meant to behave. You see them, and you expect fast moving swarms as opposed to Resident Evil-style slow moving zombies.

Since this is how Rusty wants it to be, I'd definitely go with your suggestion of decreasing Duke's running speed and jump height (the standard DukeJump™ is just insanely 'overpowered' ). Whatever it takes to balance things out...

[VinsaneOne]

Shit, that place is so dark with black aliens in every corner, I'd be glad they don't move any faster!

[Sebastian]

DeeperThought, on Feb 17 2010, 12:43 AM, said:

Making them faster and weaker would be a legit choice, but there is also merit to the slow zombie style of gameplay that Rusty wants. As he was saying, the aliens do sometimes have a burst of speed, and that makes them all dangerous. Also, you can run out of ammo, and you can have difficulty holding them off when they are coming at you from different directions. Depending on the map design, there may be situations where the player can get cornered and simply can't shoot them fast enough. Having said that, there is some question as to whether the slow zombie style of gameplay will be acceptable to players for this particular type of alien, which people are used to seeing move very fast. One thing that would really harm the gameplay is if Duke's jumping is unmodified, because then the player can jump on their heads and run right over them. I would suggest lowering the player's jumping height to a more realistic level and also decreasing his running speed from the absurdly fast default speed (if that hasn't been done already).

I want to remove the jumping entirely actually, don't really see any point in keeping it in! All you have to do is build the levels around that fact. In fact it only makes it easier for the level designer to frame off certain areas of the map where you don't want the player to go, but want things to come out of, like vents and barriers (as is seen at the start of the video).
Also, the movement speed you see in the video is actually the running. Will have to do some tinkering and see what works best if I'll need to decrease it or what not. You still haven't seen how fast the facehuggers are!

The squishing sound is old code I experimented with in order to implement headshots. I become so used to hearing that sound that I forgot completely it was there!

VinsaneOne, on Feb 17 2010, 01:04 AM, said:

Shit, that place is so dark with black aliens in every corner, I'd be glad they don't move any faster!

Sorry, side-effect from video compression! Look at the above image to get a better idea of the lighting. Besides, you'll see alot better if you play in fullscreen too.

About the aliens -- I wanted their behaviour to be a throwback to the first Alien, hence why they're not racing all across the map and will only take so much damage. To me, a resilient and slow moving alien is more interesting since we've all been exposed to the fast ones so much already in the video games. This is more, like Jonathan said, more akin to the old Aliens Online or Alien Trilogy if you wish. The good old days.

(+ it's less buggy!)

[MetHy]

Rusty Nails, on Feb 17 2010, 04:35 PM, said:

About the aliens -- I wanted their behaviour to be a throwback to the first Alien, hence why they're not racing all across the map and will only take so much damage. To me, a resilient and slow moving alien is more interesting since we've all been exposed to the fast ones so much already in the video games. This is more, like Jonathan said, more akin to the old Aliens Online or Alien Trilogy if you wish. The good old days.

In this case I think you should make them extremely powerful, more resistant than they are in the video, and have very few of them in my opinion. Perhaps even make the player move slowler. Give only a bit more ammo than necessary. Have a smart play on sounds, for example use the same sounds the player will hear when an Alien appears but also sometimes when nothing will come (without overdoing it)


In this type of scenario, having a somewhat randomized enemy spawn system would be even better. For example, make it so that an Alien has 3 spawn points possible, and has a chance of 33% to spawn in each of those three. If you die and load a save, the Alien that killed me might not appear on the same spot. The player will never be able to learn enemy placement, image the replay value.

That should build the tension a lot. Those are just suggestions, at least that's how I would do it, but perhaps I missed your point and your view on things is very different.

[Headless_Horseman]

An excellente suggestion, Methy. And why don't use two tipes of aliens, one slow and tough thart comes alone and another fast and slim that comes in packs ?

[Sangman]

Careful, soon you'll end up making the mod more complex than it really has to be which stalled development in the first place.

(not that I'm saying "stop offering good suggestions", but I don't know about adding enemy types and randomizing spawn points.. it sounds cool as hell but if it takes too much time then I'd say don't bother)

[Daedolon]

I really love the level design with the texture choices and lighting, it just looks like the aliens pose no kind of threat at all, they're either too slow or you are too fast.

[Mblackwell]

Sangman, on Feb 18 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

Careful, soon you'll end up making the mod more complex than it really has to be which stalled development in the first place.

(not that I'm saying "stop offering good suggestions", but I don't know about adding enemy types and randomizing spawn points.. it sounds cool as hell but if it takes too much time then I'd say don't bother)

He's basically taken the original design for the mod and massively simplified it so he can do it himself and in not that much time. I agree there's no point in adding a ton of stuff. Just get'er done.

[Geoffrey]

That was the idea with zombie crisis as well. It can always get patched up later!

[MetHy]

Geoffrey, on Feb 19 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

That was the idea with zombie crisis as well. It can always get patched up later!

And Zombie Crisis is the biggest waste of potential I've ever seen in a Duke mod. Even just very simple coding like having different style of zombies, like some faster but less resistant, some slower but stronger (etc) would have made the mod twice as good as what we got. Even if those different zombies would have had the same design or just had some palette swap.
But instead, Zombie Crisis gets boring in 5 minutes.

The comparaison with Zombie Crisis is perfect here, because the gameplay we see in this latest video is very similar. The only difference is that from times to times the enemies get some speed boost and that the player is limited in ammo.

[Daedolon]

MetHy, on Feb 19 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

Even just very simple coding like having different style of zombies, like some faster but less resistant, some slower but stronger (etc) would have made the mod twice as good as what we got. Even if those different zombies would have had the same design or just had some palette swap.
But instead, Zombie Crisis gets boring in 5 minutes.

That's what I said originally and would be working on right now if I wasn't so damn busy with other stuff.

[Mblackwell]

Once a mod is released, more things can be added. It's better to stick to a feature set in the beginning and get it done and release it than to just keep adding. Then you can get feedback on what works and what doesn't.

[Sangman]

Well yeah but it's better to release something impressive and fun the first time around. Though I don't see why what Rusty currently has wouldn' t be fun. Sure, it wouldn't be able to hold up for hours but it doesn't have to. I liked Zombie Crisis too, it's just ~45 minutes of quick fun.