[TerminX]

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX. Things should be in motion now.

I understand your frustration, but you also have to understand that sometimes these things happen. It's not like there's any malicious intent here or anybody doesn't care about you as a customer because the platform you purchased the game on hasn't sold as many copies as the others.

I can't say I know anything about any posts made on or removed from 3DR's forums, but if they were anything like your recent posts in this thread I'm not too surprised. I'm much more lenient here and don't plan on deleting your posts but I implore you to chill the fuck out.

[Hank]

^ None of my posts, at 3D Realms were deleted, but no one replied to them either.

Still, my troll post here worked. I now know what happened, thanks for that.

[Forge]

TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX. Things should be in motion now.

Thank you.
We should be getting this from 3dr though. Their indifference to keeping their customers informed and updated is a bit disconcerting.

TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I can't say I know anything about any posts made on or removed from 3DR's forums, but if they were anything like your recent posts in this thread I'm not too surprised. I'm much more lenient here and don't plan on deleting your posts but I implore you to chill the fuck out.

The post in question may not have been Hank's, I'm apparently mistaken about that, but it was pretty innocuous.
It simply asked something along the lines of if the 3dr customers were going to get updates the same as the steam customers, or were we going to have to wait until the final version is released.

[Zaxx]

TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX.

That's such an "indie problem", I love it!

[Zaxx]

Noticed some graphical glitches in the new version and I think these weren't there before:
https://i.imgur.com/nUP4bYa.jpg
My setup:

Win 10 64 bit
i7 2600
GTX 970, latest WHQL drivers

OpenGL renderer of course.

[Shodanbot]

TL;DR, Things I like:

Spoiler

• Keycards are used in sensible and connected places like the office building on the second map. Makes a lot more sense than being used in a subway (well, okay they can use keycards) or a sewer or a skinema. As a result, It was less of a key hunt even when I was on a key hunt.

• Maps are more vertical than horizontal. The maps look like you built them from an architectural perspective first, before adding in the gameplay and the layout is logical as a result. Except for a few secrets, but they are a guilty pleasure worth indulging in, aren't they? The maps have that "recursive linear progression" that existed in the classic games of the genre. Much of the geometry wouldn't look out of place amongst the campaign maps of Quake 2, Half-Life, or Unreal. There are nice little touches on the lighting details throughout and a good use of color lighting too. The parallaxing 3D skyboxes were a real sight to see.

• I really like the Half-Life\Unreal style map transitions. It took me by surprise. It creates a nice sense of progression and continuity throughout, and the world feels alive and not divided up by "Good Job, Player!" screens. I'm guessing this is how you are going to do all maps of each the zone in the game, with only the intermission screens from one zone to the next.

• Fights can be very frantic at times. Especially one ambush near the tail end of the penultimate map. The boss fight was quite a bit better than Duke Nukem's boss fights and seeing it tear up the centerpiece as I fought it was a real treat. Very fun stuff.

• The guns are chunky. I like that the pistol can be fired as fast as I can click the LMB. And the inverted sway of the weapons as I look around is a nice touch too. Additionally, I like the behavior of the weapons with auto-aim disabled. They behave far more predictably without AA here than the weapons in Duke3D, especially the Loverboy pistol which actually let me snipe reliably at a distant target where Duke's pistol doesn't fare as well without AA.

• Enemies are not bullet sponges and feature locational damage. Quake/Duke3D had one too many sponges in comparison.

• I think what sets the classic FPS games apart from the modern shooter is the variety of their enemy sets. And of course, that enemy set had a very utilitarian design behind them. A Quake-like template. Though, it applies to HL 1&2, Doom & Duke3D as well. But regardless of all that, you have an enemy like the Shambler which is easy enough to dispatch if you've got the cover and the ammo. But you throw in a Death Knight, or a Scrag or a Fiend to support that Shambler and now you can sweat a bit. I like your enemy set here, as they appear to follow this template closely. Beyond the standard shooty-bang-bang humanoid enemies, which you can't do without, you've got the Mechsects and the "made-to-be-bull-baited" greater Cultists. They compliment each other quite well. I hope to see more of this kind of design in future enemies because you made me very happy with what you've got as is.

• I didn't like the bowling bombs initially, but I get how they work now. I guess homing bowling bombs is a bit of a mouthful. Useful for those corner shots, especially after collecting the yellow keycard.

• The Duke outfit on the mannequin. You know the one I'm talking about. Nice.

TL;DR, Things I don't like:

Spoiler

• Ladders. These things are awkward. The tricky part is getting and staying on them from above the ladders. Or staying on them while transitioning to an area below them. And getting off them when you hit the bottom without walking backward is an issue you appear to have compensated for with walls that would block a player from accidentally falling to his doom. I'm grateful for that last one. Caught that one in playtesting, eh?


• Armor shards that are hidden in trashcans. Ah crap, my OCD kills me. It compels me to smash each and every bin I find to get the little buggers that may or may not be inside them. Reminds me of Black Mesa. The mappers of that mod got a kick out of dropping down crates every-bloody-where: does it contain a goodie that I'd like or will it waste my frigging time? Have fun finding out! I think distinct "supply crates" would be preferable such as those used in Deus Ex & Half-Life 2. They can be very useful to a mapper for leading the player's eyes to where he needs to go or might like to go. They are a bit more sensible than floating armor shards hidden in trashcans which have their own functional use outside of armor drops.

• A separate counter for the ammo in the magazine\chamber of the guns. I read somewhere that I should just count them like Archer, but I'm OCD not autistic. I'm switching out the weapons just the hit the reload button to make sure I reloaded. First world problems.

TL;DR, Things I would like to see:

Spoiler

• The physics are amusing, especially the head gibs, but instead of awkwardly pushing\pulling an object I'd like to be able to pick up, drop, and throw props à la Deus Ex, Thief, or HL2. This would need extra time to test and I did notice that objects can be pushed through corners which could cause fun bugs. And some don't clip with sprite-based walkways and stairways either. So I guess it might be too much of an ask to add this mechanic.

• Mirrors. I'm guessing you don't have the player sprites finalized yet, so that could explain their absence in various undamaged areas like the subway ladies' room. Haven't snooped through the tiles to verify that, because I cant reliably open the ART file with the available tools that I could find.

• It would be nice if all the guns spawned projectiles of finite speed instead of hitscan. This is used extensively throughout the mods Quake: Arcane Dimensions, Half-Payne, Duke Forces, and Brutal Doom. Though the latter mod used hitscan for player weapons, which probably works better for MP. Still, I do like that I can still dodge IM's hitscan projectiles while circle strafing.

• The SMG could fire one shot per mouse click instead of two shot burst firing.

• AI is good, in fact much better than Duke 3D. But sometimes they get stuck or refuse to jump over the odd sprite in their way or they have difficulty navigating around the map. Improvement here would be welcome, but it doesn't hurt the gameplay as is.

• AI could use greater variety in their barks. Though I could hear a bit less of them too. They're a bit too chatty as is and very fond of saying "Fan out." and "Over here!" I noticed that their barks are contextual to their current condition, such as grenade warnings. I'd like more of these contextual barks like casualty reports, reload reports, grenade throws, and so forth.

• AI could use multiple "more-real-than-real" dramatic pain flinching animations. Right now, they just have the electro-prod pain anim and the standard pain anim which recycles a few frames from the death animation. The latter has caused me a bit of confusion every now and then on whether I killed the cultist or not. A few more death animations wouldn't be unwelcome either. Perhaps even distinctive anims based on the weapon used against them? See Requiem: Avenging Angel for neat examples of pain stun\flinching animation.

• The boss is a walking tank and its attack pattern, as well as the arena layout, is balanced well enough that I can ignore it as the exception rather than the rule as far as bullet sponges enemies are concerned, but I think it could do with an interrupt condition with the appropriate animation frames if explosives are used against it. It could do with some gibs and/or a corpse too.

• The bowling bombs have a habit of going toward another bowling bomb when an enemy is within its reach. Perhaps they should favour threats to the player over each other, if it can reach the threat anyway.

• An option to disable the auto-save at map start would be nice. I disabled this feature in the options, which should be renamed "Autosave Setup" to avoid confusion, but it doesn't appear to work for map change auto-saves. Must be a hard-coded thing.

• Performance could be improved. I'm an ATI user on an ancient-at-this-point HD 5870 and a long time player of The Dark Mod, so I don't blame you. ATI performance with OpenGL software has always been a bit sketchy. I played the boss fight in classic renderer vs OpenGL for testing and the speeds were quite a bit better on CPU rendering than on GPU rendering, so I'll stick with classic.

• I really hope the original art assets used to create the enemy sprites will be released someday. Editing them from the original images would be great, before downscaling them.

• A volume control slider for Shelly's voice. Maybe a slider for how often she'll interject as well.

And I'm running out of things to whinge about. I just like a good moan more than anything. But allow me one question if you can answer it:

• Since this is built on eDuke32 and Mapster32 -- both licensed under GNU GPL v2 -- will you be releasing your changes to the engine and editor after you push them out of the Cathedral? A stupid question, but I have to ask.

[Micky C]

To put everyone's mind to ease, my thoughts on mirrors in the game;

I'm 99% sure there are no mirrors because they're not compatible with the skybox feature. It's a technical limitation of the engine. Sure, there'd be some underground areas where they could have mirrors, but they'd need to be consistent across the levels.

Quote

Since this is built on eDuke32 and Mapster32 -- both licensed under GNU GPL v2 -- will you be releasing your changes to the engine and editor after you push them out of the Cathedral? A stupid question, but I have to ask.

The changes are coming out in eduke32 as they're implemented in Ion Maiden. There's no real difference between the executables.

[TerminX]

Nah, it's the player sprite thing.

Thanks for the lengthy post, Shodanbot. I read all of it, though it's quite a bit more than I have time to comment on at the moment. You have some good suggestions and a few of them are already on our to-do lists.

[Micky C]

Hmm the skybox doesn't seem to be compatible with mirrors in the AMC TC anyway.

[Shodanbot]

The damaged mirror make sense in the unisex of the GPD building. It's why I only pointed out the ladies/disabled toilets in the subway in my previous post. Though, it's forgivable there too since it is adjacent to a badly damaged men's room. I bought it a few days ago on Steam -- sorry -- so I've been playing it (and abusing it to find bugs) since Friday.

Here are just a few minor bugs in the log:

Spoiler

Found lonely Sector Effector (log 0) at (11598,-38566)

Once on E3L3, I think.

Line 3615, getactorvar: invalid sprite -46080

Multiple instances on E3L4.

Line 1662, setplayer: posxv[0] invalid for player -1
Line 1663, setplayer: posyv[0] invalid for player -1
Line 1664, setplayer: poszv[0] invalid for player -1

Just once on E3L4.

No issues were apparent. Playing in the classic renderer.

And a one serious:

Spoiler

g_errorLineNum: 2416, g_tw: 124

Crash when switching from OpenGL back to Classic renderer.

And here are a few non-serious map errors (with images!):

Spoiler

E3L2 - Door leading into kitchen wash-up of GPD building should have its texture mirrored on this side:



E3L5 - Entities + bullets don't clip with this tree:



E3L5 - First instance of floating sprite next to traffic lights:



E3L5 - Second instance of floating sprite next to traffic lights:

Not a bug, but I was snooping through the scripts and couldn't resist when I found this cute detail in the weapons CON. I added comments.

Spoiler

    geta[].htextra temp
    cstat 256 // Make shell casing abusable...
    strength 0
    ifhitweapon // And if it's hit by a weapon...
    {
        geta[].htang temp2
        seta[].ang temp2
        seta[].xvel temp
        ifg temp 0
            inv temp
        mul temp 2
        seta[].zvel temp
        action AC_SHELL_TUMBLE // Then do angle+speed math and give it a tumble animation.
    }

[Zaxx]

Micky C, on 15 April 2018 - 01:22 AM, said:

Hmm the skybox doesn't seem to be compatible with mirrors in the AMC TC anyway.

As far as I can see Ion Maiden is using the same kind of skyboxes the original Build games had. Sure, there are 3D buildings in the background but those are part of the map geometry, the skybox is just a 2D image without any kind of 3D "skyboxing", you don't have anything above you (no texture), you just think you do because it's supposed to be a black sky.

I've never played AMC TC but I don't see how IM's "skybox" could be different from the original Build stuff.

[Jblade]

Zaxx, on 15 April 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

As far as I can see Ion Maiden is using the same kind of skyboxes the original Build games had. Sure, there are 3D buildings in the background but those are part of the map geometry, the skybox is just a 2D image without any kind of 3D "skyboxing", you don't have anything above you (no texture), you just think you do because it's supposed to be a black sky.

I've never played AMC TC but I don't see how IM's "skybox" could be different from the original Build stuff.

I think terminology is getting mixed here, IM definitely has Unreal-style Skyboxes which the city resides in. You can see for yourself with the full map cheat and no clipping. No previous Build game had that.

We do it with a hack involving showview whereas I'm sure Voidpoint have got a more elegant solution that'll let it work with mirrors and stuff.

[oasiz]

It's a scale model that is 1:1 tied to player movement. More like something that Source engine did.

[Shodanbot]

Three more bugs in the log on E3L5. No crashes or apparent issues caused:

Spoiler

Map E7L64 not defined!
WARNING: invalid sound #213
Line 7775, setactorvar: invalid sprite -1

Not sure if this applies in Build but in QE, gldsrc, and Source, when I want to display distant objects that the player will never get to I typically make simple "cards" (with collision off) of the thing I want to display. It might be a distant radio mast or a few trees, but it could be anything really. I don't know if it applies here, but unless I'm mistaken would simplifying the objects and removing their collision -- such as the traffic lights -- outside the arena on E3L5 be of any benefit to performance? I really should learn how to use the editor for Build.

EDIT: My performance at 1080p during the arena fight drops to 40 or so once the mech start taking bits out of the arena, but it's usually 90+ in this area. Unless I put my nostalgia goggles on and play it at 480p on classic renderer. At that point, no noticeable hitching.

[oasiz]

You will want to split sectors in order for the game to know better what to render and what not to as all the visibility is calculated in real time, along with the game having no clue what is actually occluding the skybox when viewed from play area. Sprites are always present (cut outs in this case) as long as you see the sector they're in, it's generally more economical to just do actual sectors due to this.

[Shodanbot]

TerminX, on 15 April 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

Thanks for the lengthy post, Shodanbot. I read all of it, though it's quite a bit more than I have time to comment on at the moment. You have some good suggestions and a few of them are already on our to-do lists.

I didn't anticipate a full response to my lengthy post, but I appreciate that you read it. I cant give you, Micky C, and oasiz a vote up -- must be a new user anti-abuse thing -- but I appreciate your responses and patience.

Now then, time for another suggestion:

• I'm not sure if you will be adding a Duke3D punch/kick/stock equivalent to Ion Maiden in the future, but if you do perhaps a system based on Newton's third law couldn't hurt. A cartoon execution of it, of course.


I.e. If the player throws a right hook at an enemy from a stationary position or less than max acceleration, apply hook damage and give the enemy a random chance of a small flinch. Otherwise, if the player is running toward the enemy at max acceleration and player throws a connecting hook, then apply the same damage as a stationary hook but give it a full chance of a knockdown of humanoid and bump player a little in the opposite direction. Maybe from a jump or fall too.

I suppose distance traveled would be less abusable than max acceleration.

[Forge]

Apparently GoG now has the latest update, did anybody from 3dr get it yet, or is it just me that doesn't have it available on their game page?

[MusicallyInspired]

It's definitely not updated for the Bombshell Digital Deluxe extra yet. It still says build 19934.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 16 April 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

It's definitely not updated for the Bombshell Digital Deluxe extra yet. It still says build 19934.

Okay.
The people in the gog forum are confusing me then.
A few hours ago someone posted the change log as if update 2 had been distributed.

[NightFright]

I wrote to TerminX and he got me a copy just like he said he would. A man of his word! If you can't wait, do the same. Even though it's probably soon available from 3DR directly, too.

[Micky C]

It's still not available on 3DR? They really need to streamline their system.

[Zaxx]

Anyone managed to complete Queen of the Hill? I'm literally unable to do so: the last wave is so fucking over the top that the game just shits itself and I start getting fps below 10. There is one thing you can't do with that performance: aim.

Well, at least I could try the minigun, now let's never play this again.

[oasiz]

qoth perf fixes for round15 are on the way.
For the time being, try disabling sound effects to see if that changes your perf. For some reason it's locking the game quite a bit with some users (being worked on).

[Zaxx]

oasiz, on 17 April 2018 - 02:18 AM, said:

qoth perf fixes for round15 are on the way.
For the time being, try disabling sound effects to see if that changes your perf. For some reason it's locking the game quite a bit with some users (being worked on).

Interesting, I thought it was simply the combination of one of the more demanding maps of the game and having 100 spiders on screen.

[Player Lin]

Zaxx, on 17 April 2018 - 01:47 AM, said:

Anyone managed to complete Queen of the Hill?

I do but sadly that run counts as cheated after I save and load my game to get rid the other problem caused me timed out and dead.

Some enemies tends like stuck on their spawn point(s) or some terrains on the map, since there is time limit so it's big problem(early stages just worse than later as enemies just not many on early stages) because I have to run the whole map to find out where are they just stuck.

I just hope that stuck problem also will be fixed too...

[oasiz]

It is demanding, but a lot of the additional FX got removed/redone that existed in the original one in order to make it run smoother.
However it does require a bit of smarter trickling with the spiders than just having all at one go
You should see how over engineered the setup is (nobody except me really dares to touch it)

Spoilers: if you noclip out of bounds (with map cheat), you will find some hints on how the game mode was done.

Player Lin: unstucking enemies is something that's being worked on, I think the current test build works without issues.

[DavoX]

MusicallyInspired, on 16 April 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

It's definitely not updated for the Bombshell Digital Deluxe extra yet. It still says build 19934.

If I recall correctly, Digital deluxe buyers won't even get the first update even. Just the first version that came out on feb 28.

[Forge]

The most upsetting part of the situation is that 3dr can't be bothered to keep their customers informed.
Five days and not one word.

If they came out and explained that there would be a delay, I would be okay with it. Instead we have to hear it from somebody else at a different forum.
I don't do twitter, facebook, or whatever either. I don't know what they're talking about there. 3dr has a website with a forum. They should use it.


I can't afford to spend money on games very often. I saved up a gift-card I had received for Christmas just for the sole purpose of buying Ion Maiden, and this poor customer relations experience is leaving a bitter taste over my purchase.

I'm going back to DOS solitaire and Duke3d user maps from 1997 after this.

[MusicallyInspired]

DavoX, on 17 April 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

If I recall correctly, Digital deluxe buyers won't even get the first update even. Just the first version that came out on feb 28.

Incorrect. I definitely have the first update already. As well, the initial release was 80MB and now it's 70MB. A definite change there.

[Player Lin]

MusicallyInspired, on 17 April 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Incorrect. I definitely have the first update already. As well, the initial release was 80MB and now it's 70MB. A definite change there.

Check the IM (version of eduke32)'s maiden.log file, seem the first two line:

Ion Maiden Preview Campaign r6825
Built Apr 12 2018 13:07:45, GCC 7.3.0, 64-bit 

This is the PCU2 build, if yours not this then it's old version(PCU1)... I guess.