[Hank]

Still no word on 3D Realms ...
Fine!
I don't like to play second fiddle. Especially compared to the massive numbers shown on SteamSpy.
As they say: It's lonely on the top.
I'm used to be lonely, but not playing the second fiddle to the masses (i.e Steam)

Thus, fuck you guys. I got the game code on 3D Realms, and will watch the grass grow. It's time to move on.

Feel free to delete, since it would be deleted at fucking 3D Realms

[Forge]

This is nothing.
Wait until the final version has been out for three days and we are still waiting for 3DR to upload it to their server.

[Zaxx]

 Hank, on 13 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

I don't like to play second fiddle. Especially compared to the massive numbers shown on SteamSpy.

Sorry for being offtopic but man, I'll miss SteamSpy, loved to be able to check out those estimate sales numbers.

[Micky C]

I'll be very disappointed with 3DR if they don't get the update out soon given it's the start of the weekend. It's by far their most successful game since their comeback several years ago, and they're not following through with what should be a very trivial action. I just hope that the majority of the money I spent buying it from the 3DR went to Voidpoint, and not 3DR itself.

[Forge]

 Hank, on 13 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

Feel free to delete, since it would be deleted at fucking 3D Realms

this^

didn't you ask what was taking so long with the last update & they deleted the thread?
Something that should take less than 15 minutes (uploading the file to the server then putting a link on the owned games page).

3DR's web admin updates the site from Yugoslavia every third Tuesday using a 9600 baud dial-up modem.
Now you know.

(obvious disclaimer: voidpoint is not responsible for 3dr, 3dr's behavior, or their inaction)

[Zaxx]

I don't want to play the devil's advocate here but really this stuff is to be expected. Steam has a massive, streamlined platform for this kind of stuff so it will always be easier to just update there first, when it comes to a publisher's own store this kind of thing is always a bit more complicated.

Here's the thing: we don't know what was the idea when April 12th was set as the day the patch drops but chances are they wanted to release it at the same time on all platforms (doing anything else would be stupid really). Voidpoint was a bit late with the patch even on Steam: according to what was posted on the Steam forums there were some last minute problems with the patch and that resulted in a bit of a delay so that could have had an effect on 3DR too.

And anyway I know that waiting for no apparent reason sucks balls but at most it will only be a few days. That's nothing.

[TerminX]

 Hank, on 13 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

Still no word on 3D Realms ...
Fine!
I don't like to play second fiddle. Especially compared to the massive numbers shown on SteamSpy.
As they say: It's lonely on the top.
I'm used to be lonely, but not playing the second fiddle to the masses (i.e Steam)

Thus, fuck you guys. I got the game code on 3D Realms, and will watch the grass grow. It's time to move on.

Feel free to delete, since it would be deleted at fucking 3D Realms

The patch came out on Steam barely 24h ago. What's the point in being rude to us here about something out of our control?

[NightFright]

It was already stated here that Steam would always have the updates first due to its infrastructure. Personally, I have no issues with that. 3DR will have the new version eventually. Just hope that we will be able to actually see it in our libraries.

[TerminX]

Anyone who's not acting like a huge asshole can email their 3DR store receipt to me at richard@voidpoint.com and I'll hook you up with the updated version.

[Player Lin]

QofH mode is really cool, yeah, I suck at that (kinds), and keep failed at stage 2 or 3 because can't found enemies and run out of time then forced get killed, after found saving/loading(after 10 or more try, still can't pasted stage 3, with full of frustrations of "where the **** the last 2 or 3 enemies?!", as the indicator only shows when last one remaining) will count as cheating so I decide I want more fun by enable god mode...and yes, even with cheating, I still have a lot of fun.
(Too bad I can't save my score when cheating but whatever)

Maybe try that later if the "enemy can get stuck problem" fixed...
And sorry about cheating.

[Sanek]

The only update I'm waiting for right now is a WindowsXP/32 bit compatibility. It's ridiculous to have such high system requerments for such a game. Otherwise I have to play the entire game via my laptop.

[Micky C]

Didn’t long term support for XP end years ago? For the sake of security you might want to update your OS, which has the added benefit of playing Ion Maiden.

[Forge]

 TerminX, on 13 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Anyone who's not acting like a huge asshole can email their 3DR store receipt to me at richard@voidpoint.com and I'll hook you up with the updated version.

I apologize if it appeared as if I were being rude. Frustrated and facetious was my intent; and directed at 3dr, not voidpoint.
(i also accidentally hit the '-', so i hit the '+' elsewhere to make up for it, that reputation thing needs a timer to retract mistaken clicks).

I purchased it through 3dr to maximize your profits from the sale, but I'm disappointed in the lackadaisical attitude 3dr has taken.

As pointed out, if we post our questions about delays (or anything else that may have unfavorable annotations) at the 3dr forum, they ignore them, then delete them. Your house is the only place we can vent. It's not directed at you. Sorry 'bout that.

[Forge]

 NightFright, on 13 April 2018 - 10:24 PM, said:

Just hope that we will be able to actually see it in our libraries.

right-click the ion maiden game box & choose 'inspect element'
scroll down to the line that high-lights the download box (& has the purplish border)
 Untitled.jpg (138.9K)
Number of downloads: 13

click where the crappily drawn red arrow points
it'll show everything available in the download box (as shown)
 Untitled1.jpg (137.91K)
Number of downloads: 12

 TerminX, on 13 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Anyone who's not acting like a huge asshole

and I'm not sending you an email request. My apology is to apologize for any bad intent you may have picked up from my posts, not to suck ass just so I can get the update.

[TerminX]

 Forge, on 14 April 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

I apologize if it appeared as if I were being rude. Frustrated and facetious was my intent; and directed at 3dr, not voidpoint.
(i also accidentally hit the '-', so i hit the '+' elsewhere to make up for it, that reputation thing needs a timer to retract mistaken clicks).

I purchased it through 3dr to maximize your profits from the sale, but I'm disappointed in the lackadaisical attitude 3dr has taken.

As pointed out, if we post our questions about delays (or anything else that may have unfavorable annotations) at the 3dr forum, they ignore them, then delete them. Your house is the only place we can vent. It's not directed at you. Sorry 'bout that.

Oh, my reply wasn't directed at you... I didn't think your post was out of line. I understand your irritation. I just don't care for Hank's reply, because I don't feel that we at Voidpoint personally did anything to warrant that kind of reaction.

[Hank]

 TerminX, on 13 April 2018 - 10:20 PM, said:

The patch came out on Steam barely 24h ago. What's the point in being rude to us here about something out of our control?

Oh, easy!
First off, the post describes my sentiments towards 3D Realms.

I asked for better interaction there two times. I won’t ask a third time

As for you, and Voidpoint; I am a fan of Mapster since it was version 0.4 . After years and years and years of struggling, you guys created a winning game. And I wanted to be part of this excitement, as a fan. Thanks to 3D Realms’ information distribution methods, I’m second fiddle.

And as before, delete my post(s) or send it to the Outhouse.

[TerminX]

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX. Things should be in motion now.

I understand your frustration, but you also have to understand that sometimes these things happen. It's not like there's any malicious intent here or anybody doesn't care about you as a customer because the platform you purchased the game on hasn't sold as many copies as the others.

I can't say I know anything about any posts made on or removed from 3DR's forums, but if they were anything like your recent posts in this thread I'm not too surprised. I'm much more lenient here and don't plan on deleting your posts but I implore you to chill the fuck out.

[Hank]

^ None of my posts, at 3D Realms were deleted, but no one replied to them either.

Still, my troll post here worked. I now know what happened, thanks for that.

[Forge]

 TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX. Things should be in motion now.

Thank you.
We should be getting this from 3dr though. Their indifference to keeping their customers informed and updated is a bit disconcerting.

 TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I can't say I know anything about any posts made on or removed from 3DR's forums, but if they were anything like your recent posts in this thread I'm not too surprised. I'm much more lenient here and don't plan on deleting your posts but I implore you to chill the fuck out.

The post in question may not have been Hank's, I'm apparently mistaken about that, but it was pretty innocuous.
It simply asked something along the lines of if the 3dr customers were going to get updates the same as the steam customers, or were we going to have to wait until the final version is released.

[Zaxx]

 TerminX, on 14 April 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK, so it looks like the guy responsible for sending the updates to GOG and packaging them up for the 3DR store caught the flu or other ailment when promoting the game at PAX.

That's such an "indie problem", I love it!

[Zaxx]

Noticed some graphical glitches in the new version and I think these weren't there before:
https://i.imgur.com/nUP4bYa.jpg
My setup:

Win 10 64 bit
i7 2600
GTX 970, latest WHQL drivers

OpenGL renderer of course.

[Shodanbot]

TL;DR, Things I like:

Spoiler

• Keycards are used in sensible and connected places like the office building on the second map. Makes a lot more sense than being used in a subway (well, okay they can use keycards) or a sewer or a skinema. As a result, It was less of a key hunt even when I was on a key hunt.

• Maps are more vertical than horizontal. The maps look like you built them from an architectural perspective first, before adding in the gameplay and the layout is logical as a result. Except for a few secrets, but they are a guilty pleasure worth indulging in, aren't they? The maps have that "recursive linear progression" that existed in the classic games of the genre. Much of the geometry wouldn't look out of place amongst the campaign maps of Quake 2, Half-Life, or Unreal. There are nice little touches on the lighting details throughout and a good use of color lighting too. The parallaxing 3D skyboxes were a real sight to see.

• I really like the Half-Life\Unreal style map transitions. It took me by surprise. It creates a nice sense of progression and continuity throughout, and the world feels alive and not divided up by "Good Job, Player!" screens. I'm guessing this is how you are going to do all maps of each the zone in the game, with only the intermission screens from one zone to the next.

• Fights can be very frantic at times. Especially one ambush near the tail end of the penultimate map. The boss fight was quite a bit better than Duke Nukem's boss fights and seeing it tear up the centerpiece as I fought it was a real treat. Very fun stuff.

• The guns are chunky. I like that the pistol can be fired as fast as I can click the LMB. And the inverted sway of the weapons as I look around is a nice touch too. Additionally, I like the behavior of the weapons with auto-aim disabled. They behave far more predictably without AA here than the weapons in Duke3D, especially the Loverboy pistol which actually let me snipe reliably at a distant target where Duke's pistol doesn't fare as well without AA.

• Enemies are not bullet sponges and feature locational damage. Quake/Duke3D had one too many sponges in comparison.

• I think what sets the classic FPS games apart from the modern shooter is the variety of their enemy sets. And of course, that enemy set had a very utilitarian design behind them. A Quake-like template. Though, it applies to HL 1&2, Doom & Duke3D as well. But regardless of all that, you have an enemy like the Shambler which is easy enough to dispatch if you've got the cover and the ammo. But you throw in a Death Knight, or a Scrag or a Fiend to support that Shambler and now you can sweat a bit. I like your enemy set here, as they appear to follow this template closely. Beyond the standard shooty-bang-bang humanoid enemies, which you can't do without, you've got the Mechsects and the "made-to-be-bull-baited" greater Cultists. They compliment each other quite well. I hope to see more of this kind of design in future enemies because you made me very happy with what you've got as is.

• I didn't like the bowling bombs initially, but I get how they work now. I guess homing bowling bombs is a bit of a mouthful. Useful for those corner shots, especially after collecting the yellow keycard.

• The Duke outfit on the mannequin. You know the one I'm talking about. Nice.

TL;DR, Things I don't like:

Spoiler

• Ladders. These things are awkward. The tricky part is getting and staying on them from above the ladders. Or staying on them while transitioning to an area below them. And getting off them when you hit the bottom without walking backward is an issue you appear to have compensated for with walls that would block a player from accidentally falling to his doom. I'm grateful for that last one. Caught that one in playtesting, eh?


• Armor shards that are hidden in trashcans. Ah crap, my OCD kills me. It compels me to smash each and every bin I find to get the little buggers that may or may not be inside them. Reminds me of Black Mesa. The mappers of that mod got a kick out of dropping down crates every-bloody-where: does it contain a goodie that I'd like or will it waste my frigging time? Have fun finding out! I think distinct "supply crates" would be preferable such as those used in Deus Ex & Half-Life 2. They can be very useful to a mapper for leading the player's eyes to where he needs to go or might like to go. They are a bit more sensible than floating armor shards hidden in trashcans which have their own functional use outside of armor drops.

• A separate counter for the ammo in the magazine\chamber of the guns. I read somewhere that I should just count them like Archer, but I'm OCD not autistic. I'm switching out the weapons just the hit the reload button to make sure I reloaded. First world problems.

TL;DR, Things I would like to see:

Spoiler

• The physics are amusing, especially the head gibs, but instead of awkwardly pushing\pulling an object I'd like to be able to pick up, drop, and throw props à la Deus Ex, Thief, or HL2. This would need extra time to test and I did notice that objects can be pushed through corners which could cause fun bugs. And some don't clip with sprite-based walkways and stairways either. So I guess it might be too much of an ask to add this mechanic.

• Mirrors. I'm guessing you don't have the player sprites finalized yet, so that could explain their absence in various undamaged areas like the subway ladies' room. Haven't snooped through the tiles to verify that, because I cant reliably open the ART file with the available tools that I could find.

• It would be nice if all the guns spawned projectiles of finite speed instead of hitscan. This is used extensively throughout the mods Quake: Arcane Dimensions, Half-Payne, Duke Forces, and Brutal Doom. Though the latter mod used hitscan for player weapons, which probably works better for MP. Still, I do like that I can still dodge IM's hitscan projectiles while circle strafing.

• The SMG could fire one shot per mouse click instead of two shot burst firing.

• AI is good, in fact much better than Duke 3D. But sometimes they get stuck or refuse to jump over the odd sprite in their way or they have difficulty navigating around the map. Improvement here would be welcome, but it doesn't hurt the gameplay as is.

• AI could use greater variety in their barks. Though I could hear a bit less of them too. They're a bit too chatty as is and very fond of saying "Fan out." and "Over here!" I noticed that their barks are contextual to their current condition, such as grenade warnings. I'd like more of these contextual barks like casualty reports, reload reports, grenade throws, and so forth.

• AI could use multiple "more-real-than-real" dramatic pain flinching animations. Right now, they just have the electro-prod pain anim and the standard pain anim which recycles a few frames from the death animation. The latter has caused me a bit of confusion every now and then on whether I killed the cultist or not. A few more death animations wouldn't be unwelcome either. Perhaps even distinctive anims based on the weapon used against them? See Requiem: Avenging Angel for neat examples of pain stun\flinching animation.

• The boss is a walking tank and its attack pattern, as well as the arena layout, is balanced well enough that I can ignore it as the exception rather than the rule as far as bullet sponges enemies are concerned, but I think it could do with an interrupt condition with the appropriate animation frames if explosives are used against it. It could do with some gibs and/or a corpse too.

• The bowling bombs have a habit of going toward another bowling bomb when an enemy is within its reach. Perhaps they should favour threats to the player over each other, if it can reach the threat anyway.

• An option to disable the auto-save at map start would be nice. I disabled this feature in the options, which should be renamed "Autosave Setup" to avoid confusion, but it doesn't appear to work for map change auto-saves. Must be a hard-coded thing.

• Performance could be improved. I'm an ATI user on an ancient-at-this-point HD 5870 and a long time player of The Dark Mod, so I don't blame you. ATI performance with OpenGL software has always been a bit sketchy. I played the boss fight in classic renderer vs OpenGL for testing and the speeds were quite a bit better on CPU rendering than on GPU rendering, so I'll stick with classic.

• I really hope the original art assets used to create the enemy sprites will be released someday. Editing them from the original images would be great, before downscaling them.

• A volume control slider for Shelly's voice. Maybe a slider for how often she'll interject as well.

And I'm running out of things to whinge about. I just like a good moan more than anything. But allow me one question if you can answer it:

• Since this is built on eDuke32 and Mapster32 -- both licensed under GNU GPL v2 -- will you be releasing your changes to the engine and editor after you push them out of the Cathedral? A stupid question, but I have to ask.

[Micky C]

To put everyone's mind to ease, my thoughts on mirrors in the game;

I'm 99% sure there are no mirrors because they're not compatible with the skybox feature. It's a technical limitation of the engine. Sure, there'd be some underground areas where they could have mirrors, but they'd need to be consistent across the levels.

Quote

Since this is built on eDuke32 and Mapster32 -- both licensed under GNU GPL v2 -- will you be releasing your changes to the engine and editor after you push them out of the Cathedral? A stupid question, but I have to ask.

The changes are coming out in eduke32 as they're implemented in Ion Maiden. There's no real difference between the executables.

[TerminX]

Nah, it's the player sprite thing.

Thanks for the lengthy post, Shodanbot. I read all of it, though it's quite a bit more than I have time to comment on at the moment. You have some good suggestions and a few of them are already on our to-do lists.

[Micky C]

Hmm the skybox doesn't seem to be compatible with mirrors in the AMC TC anyway.

[Shodanbot]

The damaged mirror make sense in the unisex of the GPD building. It's why I only pointed out the ladies/disabled toilets in the subway in my previous post. Though, it's forgivable there too since it is adjacent to a badly damaged men's room. I bought it a few days ago on Steam -- sorry -- so I've been playing it (and abusing it to find bugs) since Friday.

Here are just a few minor bugs in the log:

Spoiler

Found lonely Sector Effector (log 0) at (11598,-38566)

Once on E3L3, I think.

Line 3615, getactorvar: invalid sprite -46080

Multiple instances on E3L4.

Line 1662, setplayer: posxv[0] invalid for player -1
Line 1663, setplayer: posyv[0] invalid for player -1
Line 1664, setplayer: poszv[0] invalid for player -1

Just once on E3L4.

No issues were apparent. Playing in the classic renderer.

And a one serious:

Spoiler

g_errorLineNum: 2416, g_tw: 124

Crash when switching from OpenGL back to Classic renderer.

And here are a few non-serious map errors (with images!):

Spoiler

E3L2 - Door leading into kitchen wash-up of GPD building should have its texture mirrored on this side:



E3L5 - Entities + bullets don't clip with this tree:



E3L5 - First instance of floating sprite next to traffic lights:



E3L5 - Second instance of floating sprite next to traffic lights:

Not a bug, but I was snooping through the scripts and couldn't resist when I found this cute detail in the weapons CON. I added comments.

Spoiler

    geta[].htextra temp
    cstat 256 // Make shell casing abusable...
    strength 0
    ifhitweapon // And if it's hit by a weapon...
    {
        geta[].htang temp2
        seta[].ang temp2
        seta[].xvel temp
        ifg temp 0
            inv temp
        mul temp 2
        seta[].zvel temp
        action AC_SHELL_TUMBLE // Then do angle+speed math and give it a tumble animation.
    }

[Zaxx]

 Micky C, on 15 April 2018 - 01:22 AM, said:

Hmm the skybox doesn't seem to be compatible with mirrors in the AMC TC anyway.

As far as I can see Ion Maiden is using the same kind of skyboxes the original Build games had. Sure, there are 3D buildings in the background but those are part of the map geometry, the skybox is just a 2D image without any kind of 3D "skyboxing", you don't have anything above you (no texture), you just think you do because it's supposed to be a black sky.

I've never played AMC TC but I don't see how IM's "skybox" could be different from the original Build stuff.

[Jblade]

 Zaxx, on 15 April 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

As far as I can see Ion Maiden is using the same kind of skyboxes the original Build games had. Sure, there are 3D buildings in the background but those are part of the map geometry, the skybox is just a 2D image without any kind of 3D "skyboxing", you don't have anything above you (no texture), you just think you do because it's supposed to be a black sky.

I've never played AMC TC but I don't see how IM's "skybox" could be different from the original Build stuff.

I think terminology is getting mixed here, IM definitely has Unreal-style Skyboxes which the city resides in. You can see for yourself with the full map cheat and no clipping. No previous Build game had that.

We do it with a hack involving showview whereas I'm sure Voidpoint have got a more elegant solution that'll let it work with mirrors and stuff.

[oasiz]

It's a scale model that is 1:1 tied to player movement. More like something that Source engine did.

[Shodanbot]

Three more bugs in the log on E3L5. No crashes or apparent issues caused:

Spoiler

Map E7L64 not defined!
WARNING: invalid sound #213
Line 7775, setactorvar: invalid sprite -1

Not sure if this applies in Build but in QE, gldsrc, and Source, when I want to display distant objects that the player will never get to I typically make simple "cards" (with collision off) of the thing I want to display. It might be a distant radio mast or a few trees, but it could be anything really. I don't know if it applies here, but unless I'm mistaken would simplifying the objects and removing their collision -- such as the traffic lights -- outside the arena on E3L5 be of any benefit to performance? I really should learn how to use the editor for Build.

EDIT: My performance at 1080p during the arena fight drops to 40 or so once the mech start taking bits out of the arena, but it's usually 90+ in this area. Unless I put my nostalgia goggles on and play it at 480p on classic renderer. At that point, no noticeable hitching.