[Radar]

Forge, on 09 October 2023 - 04:04 PM, said:

rednukem - circa 2018
eduke32 addon compilation - circa 2014

I'm guessing your point is that Rednukem wasn't available as an intermediate for DOS era mods when this pack was first released? If so, EDuke32 probably had far greater compatibility in 2014. Also, I don't think DOS era mods are that problematic even today. I've been able to load any classic mod just fine with the latest EDuke32. I think the problem really lies within the source port era from 2003 until now where people write CON code to take advantage of EDuke32 features that have changed over time. If that's the case, just use the version of EDuke32 that works.

[Forge]

Radar, on 09 October 2023 - 04:25 PM, said:

EDuke32 probably had far greater compatibility in 2014.

you'd think that, but such is not the case

i don't know about recent snapshots, but for the last several years, there's never been a 'perfect' eduke32 where everything works as it was supposed to with everything included in the compilation.

This compilation isn't for people like you and purists - it's for people who want the convenience, aren't computer savvy, and aren't after an unfiltered dos environment experience.

While I agree with you about several edits that were unnecessary, I don't think it needs to be extended into the realm of nitpicking for 'zero edits regardless', or 'my way is better' theories that the average person will never attempt on their own.

[Radar]

Forge, on 09 October 2023 - 04:40 PM, said:

you'd think that, but such is not the case

i don't know about recent snapshots, but for the last several years, there's never been a 'perfect' eduke32 where everything works as it was supposed to with everything included in the compilation.

Collecting all addons in this compilation individually, then downloading and trying out every eduke32 since 2005 for each and every tc in this collection one at a time would be a colossal waste of time that would be better spent trying to figure out how to get them all to run in dosbox.

This compilation isn't for people like you and purists - it's for people who want the convenience, aren't computer savvy, and aren't after an unfiltered dos environment experience.


while I agree with you about several edits that were unnecessary, I don't think it needs to be extended into the realm of nitpicking for 'zero edits regardless', or 'my way is better' theories that the average person will never attempt on their own.

You've edited your post so much that at the beginning you're arguing with me but by the end you're agreeing with me. Like you, I'm not saying that no pack should exist. I'm saying, barring some outstanding example that I'm not aware of, that probably only a handful of CON edits were needed across this entire pack to make it compatible with a modern EDuke32 version. The full changelog was unnecessary, and it looks to me like by the last sentence, we agree on that. I'm not sure what else to say. My only other comment is this:

Forge, on 09 October 2023 - 04:40 PM, said:

downloading and trying out every eduke32 since 2005

Use bisection.

[Forge]

Radar, on 09 October 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

Use bisection.

I'm allowed to edit my posts. Deal with it.

I removed that part of my post for a reason. And you didn't respond to my post until after the edits - so stick to what's there.

And your bisection theory isn't going to work for the average user that isn't computer or file-management savvy. Especially trying to find an eduke32 for pre eduke32 tc's. Bisection is still way more inconvenient than having everything already packaged up and working with some minor functional edits.


edit

edit

if i edit my post before it's been responded to, then it doesn't matter how many edits i make. and i'll make as many as i want. it's when people edit after they've been responded to that's when integrity comes into question

[Radar]

Forge, on 09 October 2023 - 08:02 PM, said:

I'm allowed to edit my posts. Deal with it.

I removed that part of my post for a reason. And you didn't respond to my post until after the edits - so stick to what's there.

You're free to edit your post all you like. But if I start writing my post at a certain moment in time, then I'm going to respond to what was there when I started writing. I'm not going to keep re-writing my post to keep up with your edits.

Forge, on 09 October 2023 - 08:02 PM, said:

Especially trying to find an eduke32 for pre eduke32 tc's.

This isn't intended as a gotcha question. I'm genuinely curious, is there a pre EDuke32 mod that doesn't work with EDuke32?

[Forge]

Radar, on 10 October 2023 - 04:32 AM, said:

You're free to edit your post all you like. But if I start writing my post at a certain moment in time, then I'm going to respond to what was there when I started writing. I'm not going to keep re-writing my post to keep up with your edits.

i looked at the bottom of the thread before I made my edits (which I do every time I make an edit) and I was the only user on the thread that was logged in.
Not my problem if you're stealth reading it and then log in to reply and it's changed.

as for pre-eduke32 tc's, there are tc's made with 1.3 that don't work with 1.4, let alone a port. I'm not playing the rabbit hole game and hunting them down to give you specific tc's. I ain't got time for that.
The quickest reference point would be to get the original release of this compilation and look at all the edits that were made that fixed game play issues.
I'd hazard a guess that most non-compatible issues stem from either bad mapping that the dos versions 'ignored', or exploiting bugs that eduke32 fixed.

(the downvote was a mistake, i thought i was checking to see who didn't like my freedom of speech and accidently clicked your post - i made up for it elsewhere. Be nice if the forum software allowed for votes to be undone within a certain amount of time)

[Forge]

Radar, on 10 October 2023 - 04:32 AM, said:

This isn't intended as a gotcha question. I'm genuinely curious, is there a pre EDuke32 mod that doesn't work with EDuke32?

wrong question as far as this compilation is concerned.

the correct question is: Is there an Eduke32 snapshot that can run all the tc's in this compilation without game breaking issues?

[NightFright]

That question came up already. As of now, it's unclear. Normally I'd say a snapshot from around 2016 or so should be safe. However, in the meantime some optimizations for newer builds have been made (such as the user maps menu) which will break with such old versions again. Code-heavy mods tend to break faster, but map-related bugs can be introduced at any point as well. It's pretty messy.

[Radar]

Forge, on 10 October 2023 - 07:02 AM, said:

as for pre-eduke32 tc's, there are tc's made with 1.3 that don't work with 1.4, let alone a port. I'm not playing the rabbit hole game and hunting them down to give you specific tc's. I ain't got time for that.

This brings up another question I have out of genuine curiosity: was there ever a tc that got a 1.3d-only release? I figured even back then it would really kill your mod's popularity not to have a 1.5 compatible version.

Either way, this wouldn't be a bug in EDuke32 but rather a categoric issue. Does EDuke32 support 1.3d GRPs and/or CONs? (I haven't tested this to know myself) If so, then 1.3d mods should work fine. If not, then 1.3d mods are not supported categorically. Meaning, this isn't a "bug" that needs to be "fixed". EDuke32 is just doing what it's designed to do.

Forge, on 10 October 2023 - 07:02 AM, said:

The quickest reference point would be to get the original release of this compilation and look at all the edits that were made that fixed game play issues.
I'd hazard a guess that most non-compatible issues stem from either bad mapping that the dos versions 'ignored', or exploiting bugs that eduke32 fixed.

I'd rather things just be left as a product of their time. Also, how many old mods have you played where you actually had a game breaking issue? I've uploaded a handful of playthroughs including The Gate, Secrets of the Acropolis, and Last Reaction, using the original unpatched versions with the latest EDuke32 and never had an issue. Also, part of the fun of playing The Gate in particular is experiencing the final boss which is historically known to be broken.

Forge, on 10 October 2023 - 08:58 AM, said:

wrong question as far as this compilation is concerned.

the correct question is: Is there an Eduke32 snapshot that can run all the tc's in this compilation without game breaking issues?

I wasn't making a point one way or the other. I was literally just asking if you know of a pre EDuke32 mod that doesn't work.

NightFright, on 10 October 2023 - 09:27 AM, said:

That question came up already. As of now, it's unclear. Normally I'd say a snapshot from around 2016 or so should be safe. However, in the meantime some optimizations for newer builds have been made (such as the user maps menu) which will break with such old versions again. Code-heavy mods tend to break faster, but map-related bugs can be introduced at any point as well. It's pretty messy.

I think trying to accommodate for every edge case - especially collision detection changes - is a futile effort. I think the best you can do is ensure that every mod launches without crashing in EDuke32 and just wish the rest well.

[Forge]

Radar, on 10 October 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

Does EDuke32 support 1.3d GRPs and/or CONs?

yes.

the point was that altering the code in an exe file can change game behavior.

duke3d.exe 1.3 ignored a lot of bugs and map errors. 1.4/5 still ignored most of the bugs & errors, but not all. Eduke32.exe doesn't ignore much of anything & by 'fixing' the bugs it has created some compatibility issues with older maps. Especially when bugs were exploited, or some sloppy mapping with crossing walls or random SE's are involved.

[Aleks]

As far as the mapping alone goes, the only "game-breaking" bugs I've experienced so far are related to the clipping issues (e.g. not being able to jump into 8192 height vent in Eduke32 after r76xx or something) and not being able to stuff a pipe-bomb issues (e.g. Red 4). I've had one 1996 map (Vega) plainly not launching in Eduke32, but it works just fine in Rednukem. In general, I'd say it's a lot more convenient to just play older maps/TCs under Rednukem right now (along with promoting that port) and not to worry about any possible collisions rather than trying to fix them for newer Eduke revisions. After all, let's face it - we're all nerds here and anyone who's willing to play an obscure 1996, will probably be also willing to invest a bit more time to actually find out the best way to play it, not even being a "purist".

[Forge]

i've encountered all kinds of interesting 'goodness' with old maps.

there was a tc released for 1.3 (no, i don't remember which one for sure, but it might have been Lost Highway) that used teleport/transport se's to go from one underwater sector to another underwater sector - but that behavior changed with 1.4 and it no longer worked (can't recall off the top of my head if it was se7 or se23)

seen several maps that had visual issues due to crossing walls that dos versions kinda ignored - iirc, that penthouse map is one of them - along with the extra water transport se's that screwed up the ability to surface from the underwater area at the start of the map in later versions of eduke32 (i don't know about more recent versions)

seen several maps that had some kind of corruption in a child sector that dos versions ignored, they looked fine, but switches and nuke buttons wouldn't function in them.

billy boy made transparent submersible water in a map or two by using some exploit - and those haven't worked in eduke32 in quite some time (again - i haven't tried more recent snapshots)

I haven't really used rednukem, but from what the majority of people post, it'd probably be a better option to try to run a huge compilation of tc's - especially the pre-ion maiden era stuff.

[Radar]

Conversationally this is all covered ground. Still shouldn't edit them. Let things be a product of their time. Just use classic renderer and/or Rednukem. I think Aleks's approach is well balanced.

[Reaper_Man]

Radar, on 10 October 2023 - 10:59 AM, said:

This brings up another question I have out of genuine curiosity: was there ever a tc that got a 1.3d-only release? I figured even back then it would really kill your mod's popularity not to have a 1.5 compatible version.

Nothing immediately comes to mind, but remember that it was only 8 months in between Duke3D's release in April 1996 and Plutonium Pak's release later that December. Dukeworld has some CON mods from 1996 but at a glance, none of them are what I'd call extensive. The earliest TCs didn't start coming out until 1997, and access to useractor alone made 1.5 extremely useful for mods and TCs.

[Ninety-Six]

Reaper_Man, on 11 October 2023 - 09:08 AM, said:

The earliest TCs didn't start coming out until 1997, and access to useractor alone made 1.5 extremely useful for mods and TCs.

A lot of them still used 1.3d because nobody was sure how many people actually had Plutonium/Atomic

[NightFright]

I did a few 1.3D to 1.5 conversions for the compilation. One of them was the Wolfenstein TC,
IIRC. Probably something that wasn't necessary... again. But well, it's done.

[Phredreeke]

Nah, it is necessary given Rednukem only supports 1.4/1.5. Assuming that is what the compilation is gonna target now.

[NightFright]

Still using a lot of EDuke32 code in general. Some of the simpler addons are easy to convert, but it wouldn't work for all of them.

[Aleks]

Forge, on 11 October 2023 - 04:53 AM, said:

i've encountered all kinds of interesting 'goodness' with old maps.

there was a tc released for 1.3 (no, i don't remember which one for sure, but it might have been Lost Highway) that used teleport/transport se's to go from one underwater sector to another underwater sector - but that behavior changed with 1.4 and it no longer worked (can't recall off the top of my head if it was se7 or se23)

seen several maps that had visual issues due to crossing walls that dos versions kinda ignored - iirc, that penthouse map is one of them - along with the extra water transport se's that screwed up the ability to surface from the underwater area at the start of the map in later versions of eduke32 (i don't know about more recent versions)

seen several maps that had some kind of corruption in a child sector that dos versions ignored, they looked fine, but switches and nuke buttons wouldn't function in them.

billy boy made transparent submersible water in a map or two by using some exploit - and those haven't worked in eduke32 in quite some time (again - i haven't tried more recent snapshots)

I haven't really used rednukem, but from what the majority of people post, it'd probably be a better option to try to run a huge compilation of tc's - especially the pre-ion maiden era stuff.

Problems with submersible water broke somewhere along the way, but I think there were discrepancies even between 1.3d and 1.4/1.5. Particular map that I remember being broken in Eduke due to this was the 5th level of first episode of The Gate (Antarctica). I remember this not working in Eduke some time ago, but seems it works now as Radar posted.

Another particular change that I now recall after reading your post is with the touchplates pointing upward or downward which changes their behaviour. LEM II has some teleporters with touchplates in the same sector as SE7, which I guess worked in regular Duke, but didn't in Eduke because the player would get teleported before triggering the touchplate.

[ETPC]

Shaky Grounds works flawlessly on r10494!

[Phredreeke]

Was there ever an issue with Shaky Grounds on EDuke32? I thought it was just Rednukem due to the blocking cstat bit on the switch in the vent

[ETPC]

honestly, you never know what will be broken or not, so at least Shaky Grounds can be crossed off the list

[alexhob123]

moonbase accident starts up normal then goes really slow anyway to fix this

got it working running in software mode instead of opengl

nope still not working

[NightFright]

Didn't we have a similar issue with A.Dream before, back in April? IIRC some EDuke32-specific issue with invalid offsets introduced in newer builds spammed the log like crazy and led to slowdowns (and eventually crashes). Maybe a look at your local log file could provide some insights.

[alexhob123]

where is my local log file

[alexhob123]

i can't post it for some reason

also game crashes on MSSP Episode when reactor get's destroyed

[Reaper_Man]

NightFright, on 01 November 2023 - 03:44 PM, said:

Didn't we have a similar issue with A.Dream before, back in April? IIRC some EDuke32-specific issue with invalid offsets introduced in newer builds spammed the log like crazy and led to slowdowns (and eventually crashes). Maybe a look at your local log file could provide some insights.

Two separate things - The log spamming was from trying to play a sound that didn't exist every gametic, and the log entries were complaining about the sound file not existing. The offset issue was related to trying to access art tile IDs that were illegal / out of bounds in CON.

[alexhob123]

Reaper_Man, on 06 November 2023 - 04:05 PM, said:

Two separate things - The log spamming was from trying to play a sound that didn't exist every gametic, and the log entries were complaining about the sound file not existing. The offset issue was related to trying to access art tile IDs that were illegal / out of bounds in CON.

so is there a fix

[Nacho]

I will say that I noticed older iterations of eDuke32 (for me at least) feel nd look very sluggish if you have V-Sync on, where I just don't run into that with newer builds. Not this issue people are probably describing here, but some random two cents for anyone running into a similar problem with the Add-On Compilation.

[Reaper_Man]

alexhob123, on 07 November 2023 - 07:51 AM, said:

so is there a fix

No clue, no idea what your problem is. Upload your log to pastebin or something if you can't add it as an attachment here.