[t800]

Maybe Romero was at good terms with 3D Realms at that time of Duke3D development, so they sent him some pre-0.99 version only for private use. And later when Duke3D was not so fresh thing anymore (so he wouldnt have to fear possible prosecution) he decided to provide it to studio. Maybe?

[Fox]

gerolf, on 03 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

But there must be a reason why they used those images and videos, and this "archive footage" has appeared nowhere but in that video, a video about Romero's favorite games. I think you're mad because you're underthinking.

I don't think I am mad, because I don't really give importance.

If anything, the only reason is that the overall media and even 3DRealms itself seems to not see any difference (or care about) beetween the final game and a prototype. It's not rare to find websites today using early previews.

[dnskill]

It's not rare, but that video was released after Atomic Edition was released, why the fuck would they use that old of footage for a video like this?

I know that they use old footage for many things, but there has to be more to it, and the footage has to have a source, and somebody probably still has that source. Companies don't usually throw old versions away because they may have features they took out in the final version, but may wish to use them in a future title (possibly due to engine limits or various other reasons). So these builds still exist, and it seems Joe has them (and I think he said he was unable to extract the zip files), but people here in the community would know how to.

I still say someone contact Scott Miller instead of anyone else, he's the only one next to George with the power to release stuff like that.

[Jimmy]

I don't doubt that they use pre-release footage all the time, but this footage is odd, I don't think I've ever seen more footage from around this era.

[Hendricks266]

gerolf, on 03 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

B. The studio didn't want to purchase Duke Nukem 3d, and so 3DR gave them an older version instead? Or maybe again, 3DR made a mistake, and sent the wrong version? (This means the studio had a copy of this version, and somebody played it in order to make the footage).

It's more likely that they went to the publisher (GT Interactive) instead of the developer (3D Realms).

[dnskill]

True, but now GT Interactive is dead.. So if we wanted to contact somebody in this day and age, who would be the person(s) to contact? Joe Siegler is one of them, but he seems to be the one everyone contacts. Richard Grey is around on Facebook, but he didn't have much of a position outside of level design, however this is not to say contacting him over unreleased levels isn't worth it, or even early versions of released levels. There's Lee Jackson, but Hendricks already contacted him over basically the only thing worth contacting him about, the music. There's all the other guys too, but many have left the game scene completely. George Broussard seems to have vanished, so that leads to the person I've mentioned twice already:

Scott Miller.

He'd be the one to contact over anything Duke Nukem 3d, and would probably be the person with the power to release the alphas/betas, or at least discuss them. I have his Facebook page here. I'd contact him myself, but I'm not good with words, so maybe someone who is can talk to him, or someone could think up a great message to send, and I'll do it for you?

[OpenMaw]

gerolf, on 05 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

True, but now GT Interactive is dead.. So if we wanted to contact somebody in this day and age, who would be the person(s) to contact? Joe Siegler is one of them, but he seems to be the one everyone contacts. Richard Grey is around on Facebook, but he didn't have much of a position outside of level design, however this is not to say contacting him over unreleased levels isn't worth it, or even early versions of released levels. There's Lee Jackson, but Hendricks already contacted him over basically the only thing worth contacting him about, the music. There's all the other guys too, but many have left the game scene completely. George Broussard seems to have vanished, so that leads to the person I've mentioned twice already:

Scott Miller.

He'd be the one to contact over anything Duke Nukem 3d, and would probably be the person with the power to release the alphas/betas, or at least discuss them. I have his Facebook page here. I'd contact him myself, but I'm not good with words, so maybe someone who is can talk to him, or someone could think up a great message to send, and I'll do it for you?

It was brought up on the 3D Realms forums many many many many many many many times. Joe had talked with the powers that be at 3DR, they never released anything. They have their reasons. They aren't interested in sharing some things.

Scott's answer would be basically, "No."

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Commando Nukem, on 05 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Scott's answer would be basically, "No."

Has anyone ever bothered to ask "Why not" simply for the sake of closure?

[dnskill]

How do you know Joe asked? Maybe he was answering for himself, and was just saying he asked Scott and George.

Nobody has asked Scott Miller himself, nobody, and even if he said NO, it's better than not hearing anything back.


In other news...



Are these frames ever actually seen in the game? If so, what are the used for, and if not, what were they meant to be used for?

It looks like he's either looking down, or he's about to kill himself?

[Mike Norvak]

gerolf, on 06 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

It looks like he's either looking down, or he's about to kill himself?

According to the tile name he's feeding, I think they made it as another position when the player faces him, just like the liztroop sitting. It is used only in one of the screens in the buy menu on the shareware version. It would be cool if someone code it in a mod to actually work, at least there's actually a model in the HRP. I don't know if that's something useful though...

[Fox]

gerolf, on 06 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Are these frames ever actually seen in the game?

I checked game.con, and no.

gerolf, on 06 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

If so, what are the used for, and if not, what were they meant to be used for?

The tilenum is labeled "LIZMANFEEDING" so I guess he is eating something. His own feces?

[dnskill]

LOL!! I'm not sure, but those images may come in handy for various things.

[OpenMaw]

 Fox, on 07 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

The tilenum is labeled "LIZMANFEEDING" so I guess he is eating something. His own feces?

Oh. Oh, no...

Please, at least make it babies!

 Achenar, on 06 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Has anyone ever bothered to ask "Why not" simply for the sake of closure?

The discussion is usually closed before that kind of question can be asked. It just won't happen.

[dnskill]

I agree, but I wish someone would interview them and put the question out that way.. Scott has done some interviews for people from YT (So has John Romero, JSJ, and many other guys from that era of FPS history).. Scott's video was well over 7 minutes long I believe, so if done right, I'm sure he'd answer.

Anyways.. Here's some more stuff to add..

This looks like the Battle Lord.. So maybe at one time the Battle Lord was a giant Pig Cop? Just look at the similarities!

Incredibly muscular, giant weapon with many barrels, armor, and the helmet looks almost exactly the same. Maybe the Battle Lord wasn't a Pig Cop at first, but they used this as inspiration to create him.

Maybe.. in time.. this guy will get a sprite set made by yours truly.

[Jimmy]

The helmet isn't similar at all. It's just a riot mask with the glass broken out.

[dnskill]

The way it arches out here is also shown in game.. but looking at it again, you're right, it doesn't look the same, and those might just be ears or spikes.

[Jimmy]

Yep, there are spikes on his back, and his ear is poking out. It's just a broken riot mask.

[Come On And Slam]

gerolf, on 07 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Hm, I noticed that it says "All Duke's guns chained together", and it looks a little bit like Duke's guns included an M16, a flamethrower, and a double barrel shotgun ... but maybe that was just for a generalization of what guns would look like tied up in a chain. Any thoughts?

[Jimmy]

It's concept art from 1994. Chuck probably just drew random weapons.

[OpenMaw]

Slippy_Pig, on 07 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hm, I noticed that it says "All Duke's guns chained together", and it looks a little bit like Duke's guns included an M16, a flamethrower, and a double barrel shotgun ... but maybe that was just for a generalization of what guns would look like tied up in a chain. Any thoughts?

Yes, i'd imagine it was just for the sake of demonstrating the concept. At the time (1994/1995) they were still very much trying to figure out a lot of the games design. (Things like the Snake head, laser chainsaw, plasma gun were on the table.)

[MrFlibble]

gerolf, on 06 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Are these frames ever actually seen in the game? If so, what are the used for, and if not, what were they meant to be used for?

It looks like he's either looking down, or he's about to kill himself?

Norvak, on 07 November 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

According to the tile name he's feeding, I think they made it as another position when the player faces him, just like the liztroop sitting. It is used only in one of the screens in the buy menu on the shareware version. It would be cool if someone code it in a mod to actually work, at least there's actually a model in the HRP. I don't know if that's something useful though...

I also remember thinking how weird these sprites looked when I was checking out the game resources for probably the first time.

Maybe this was something akin to the Pig Cop's animation of hitting the player with the butt of the shotgun?

Also, slimers may eat corpses of other enemies (although this does not actually serve any purpose IIRC), could it be that the Enforcer would have a similar function?

[Fox]

Possible, it would make some sense in eating toasted corpses (since the Enforced used a flamethrower).

[Micky C]

MrFlibble, on 10 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Also, slimers may eat corpses of other enemies (although this does not actually serve any purpose IIRC)\

It does serve a purpose.

1) It's kinda cool.
2) On Damn I'm Good mode, having the slimers eat the dead corpses of bodies stops them from coming back to life and is a great way to make playing the game easier.

[MrFlibble]

Micky C, on 10 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

2) On Damn I'm Good mode, having the slimers eat the dead corpses of bodies stops them from coming back to life and is a great way to make playing the game easier.

You're right, I didn't think about it.

I meant that there's no purpose from the slimer's point of view - e.g. if a wounded monster would eat a corpse to regain health that would be kind of logical, right? But slimers have only 1 HP. For example, enemies in Blake Stone may pick up ammo clips dropped by downed guards and such, to replenish their ammo (or at least, they were advertised to be able to do that; I don't remember clearly if I ever encountered such a situation, since something that may have looked like a guard running away to pick up an ammo clip could have been just the AI trying to strafe or retreat).

[Fox]

Slimers also eat living enemies...

[t800]

It seems that to this moment we know at least two different beta versions of pigcop that predate current one from Duke3D.



I am interested more in older variant of pigcop from left picture. Do we have more screenshots with him? So far I have never seen any other, so I would be grateful for more.
There are two interesting things that got attention of my curiosity in left shot:
1) Their weapons look like combination of smg and double barrel shotgun. Was it intention of graphic artist (something like fully automatic shotgun -
for example Daewoo USAS 12) or was it just not enough refined art?
2) It looks like they have batons. Maybe they used them for melee attack? I heard that our current version of pigcop was also supposed to have melee attack. I dont understand why they removed it. Nuclear Showdown and AMC TC brought it back (and it fits well in game) and IMO making pigcops use bigger variety of attacks brings new tactic in fighting them.

[MrFlibble]

Good question, I wonder why they removed the bulletproof vest - would have made sense considering that Pig Cops sometimes drop used armour. The early version generally looks a lot better IMO.

[Fox]

The Pigcops still wear vests, however in the sprites they aren't of a distinct color.

[dnskill]

I'm late There are a few screenshots of the one on the left, and there's a few for the one on the right, it is even shown moving around in a video.

Hey, what do you all think PIGWRN.VOC is saying? To me it sounds like the Pig Cop is being possessed by an alien (example, in Blood's intro cinematic where the cultist is used to speak for the dark god). It sounds like it's saying "Prepare to die... Human!" I reversed it and there wasn't a reversed message to it IMO.

Also, do you think it's possible that a lot of these undefined sounds were just copies of other sounds at some point? There's a lot of unused sounds for the Sentry Drone that probably were for the Snake Head (which possible had art at one point). I think some of the exclusive sounds in DNTM were originally DN3D recordings perhaps (maybe not all of them)? I think DNZH too has DN3D sounds in it, not actually used in DN3D. Though it is JSJ doing the voice everytime, DN3D and DNZH voice sounds slightly different than what we had in DNMP, TTK, LOTB, and DNF.

[High Treason]

t800, on 11 November 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

I am interested more in older variant of pigcop from left picture. Do we have more screenshots with him?

Try Computer Gaming World 132, Page 86, 88; http://img205.images.../6109/cgw86.png http://img824.images.../4945/cgw88.png

I think there are some more out there too. Those particular ones are from this post.

I was thinking of compiling all the beta shots from this thread into one archive and uploading it, probably along with the few Shadow Warrior and Blood ones I have (if I can find them).

By coincidence, if you like Blood and Shadow Warrior, look at these;
Blood:
http://www.oldgames....libur53-012.jpg
http://www.oldgames....e/016/blood.png
http://www.oldgames....Score32-023.jpg
http://www.oldgames..../riki28-046.jpg

Shadow Warrior:
http://www.oldgames....1996/52/009.jpg