[MYHOUSE.MAP]

Lunick, on 02 November 2020 - 07:00 PM, said:

You mean this?

I was thinking of those, but didn't want to jump to conclusions. The wording is vague enough that it's hard to determine if graphics of Duke flailing around were displayed for sure.

[MetHy]

Looks more like a workout gone wrong

[ck3D]

Or:



Sound DSCREM04.VOC (#245) not found!

[MetHy]

In Redneck Rampage Rides Again E2L3 Lumockston, there is an unreachable untagged secret place located on the far north west corner of the map.

It's a small underwater area, and there is a SE7 transport teleporter; however it is not linked to anything; there is no corresponding SE7 anywhere overwater in the map. Furthermore, the shape of the sector that would teleport the player overwater doesn't seem to match anything in the level.

This is probably a hint that the level had another unfinished area that got scrapped, and someone forgot to delete that secret place with it. There are two places in the map that uses the same texture as in that place: the construction site, and the flooded area with the car dealership.

[MetHy]

Among my research regarding Sunstorm level designers and levels, I stumbled upon this (among other things):

Truck in DC's Dread October (DUKEDC8.map):





Truck in Duke Xtreme's Final Destination (FINLDEST.map):

I upped the shading values here to see it more clearly because the map is very dark





The two trucks next to each others in 2D mode (I didn't rotate any of them):



The only difference are the shading values and the palette; and of course the truck in Dread October has a switch inside.

The first one is by Robert Travis, the 2nd one by Shawn Swift. Both add-ons made by Sunstorm. Duke Xtreme was made after DC, and it's probably the add-on that was the most quickly put together; so it's very likely that SCS copied pasted the truck from Dread October.
This being said, it's also possible that Final Destination and its truck existed before DC and that RT used it for Dread October, after all I always thought that this truck looked "user-mapish" for expansion material. DC comes with new art so they could have made new more fitting textures for it.

Edit:
It's also worth noting that the same map, Final Destination from SCS, also has this control room:



Which looks a lot like this control room from SCS's DC map Brown Water ((DUKEDC7.map):



Notice that even the crate is there and the vent too. The DC looks better however, like an updated version (more details, fixed sloped near the screens, better scale for the room), which again makes me think that Final Destination could have been made before. I need to find out if perhaps, Duke Xtreme was a compilation of older maps from these mappers.

Notice also that the pillar in the middle is VERY reminiscent of RT's own pillars from another Xtreme level, Dirge, further linking both authors together:




Edit 2:

Here is another similar one:

DC's Smithsonian (DUKEDC4):


Xtreme's Opaka:


Both next to the each other's in mapster 2D mode (Opaka on the left):



They're not identical. The DC coffin is a bit bigger and the cross too. They're not textured the same either, the side texture is different, however the floor texture ( the coffin lid) is the same despite being aligned differently. The similarity is uncanny.
Both were made by RT; and just like for the control room to me the DC one looks better.

[MetHy]

A few more things on the subject of elements from the Sunstorm add-ons that were based on elements from previous maps of the authors, either inspired by or directly copy pasted from their pre add-on maps:

- As stated in this thread, the aquarium in The Smithsonian, as well as a couple of elements from Metro Mayhem, were based on elements from RT's usermap Beta One.
I'm sorry this discussion is scattered among several threads but while they're related, the threads are different topics.

- This area from Caribbean Life's Lost Lagoon:



is based on this area from RT's previous level Aztec:



I took the area from Aztec, copy pasted it next to the one from Lost Lagoon and rotated it. Here is how it looks in 2D mode, with Aztec's on the right:



It's nearly identical, a direct copy paste that was rotated and improved. Not pictured here, but even the door tiles and the ambient sound used are the same, in fact, the placement of the ambient sound hasn't moved an inch.

As you all know, Aztec was re-used as part of the secret level of Duke It Out In DC, but only less than half of it was re-used (and slightly modified) and that didn't include this area.

- Much smaller things now, which are more to do with RT's style than anything: on top of the design elements which I already listed in that other thread (the two-level fountains, sloped archway, rounded pillars, marble textures etc), here are a few more that help define his style::
This area from RT's map Shakaar (Duke Xtreme), is also very reminiscent of Lost Lagoon, the reason is that texture used for the walls:



is the same in this room of Lost Lagoon:



That texture is supposed to be a sewer trimming texture, not meant to use for tall walls like this and I've never seen it used as such anywhere else.

- Embedding lights with odd shapes into the ceiling:

Beta Two:





Memorial Service:



Nuke Proof:



Was there supposed to be one here in Hail To The Chief?



Please note that these are only examples, it's everywhere, and that it also applies to natural lights, as seen in Anslem/Anslem X:



- Small rounded versions of that concept:

In Nuked Files:



The Smithsonian:



Caribbean Catastrophe:



- Finally, using the red palette with Octobrain and eggs insfested areas, most often than not combined with alien textures:

Beta Two:



The Smithsonian:



Capitol Punishment:



Dread October:



Nuke Proof:



Edit: and just for the sake of this, here are some small embedded rounded ceiling lights from Wanton Destruction's Monastery, even the trimming looks the same despite being a different game; also there are other design elements in that map like the kind of small underwater area with vertical pillars you can also find in Caribbean Catastrophe and Mr Splashy:

[MetHy]

More Robert Travis stuff. Some differences between the demo and final version of Monastery for Wanton Destruction.
You can find the demo thread there:
https://forums.duke4...of-build-games/
but since I already started posting related material here, might as well continue.

- First of all, the mapfile name is "garden", vs "$tank.map" in final version. "$tank.map" is the mapfile name of the 2nd level in the registered episode, but "$garden.map" is the 4th level of the episode. This suggest a different planned map order, but maybe "garden" and "$garden" aren't related.

- the DM multiplayer starts seem to be absent (despite the demo being released with a DM map also)

- The unreachable place at the start of the level, showing a part of the previous map, is absent:

Demo:


Final:



- The alt-exit to the secret level is also absent:

Demo:


Final:


So far nothing to wet your pants about, but what about things present in the demo version but gone in the final version?

- Bigger unreachable place:

Demo:





Final:





- Extra/Missing decorative sprite:

Demo:


Final:



That's all I was able to spot.
The demos of Duke It Out In DC and Cryptic Passage seem to be identical to the released version; but for both these addons the official screenshots that come with all show some beta level design in places.
Fun fact: outside of the added DM map for the Wanton Destruction demo I mentionned, all the demo levels from Sunstorm are Robert Travis maps.

Edit: forgot to mention but the demo DM map by Wieder seems to be identical to the final version, outside of the filename difference

[MetHy]

Quintuple post yo!

As you all know, Xatrix has a history of never revealing individual level credits (whether that was an intentional dev policy or not remains to be proven).

I'm also a big fan Xatrix and Redneck Rampage: Rides Again specifically. There are only two level designer credited for RR:RA: Rhett Baldwin and Aaron Barber, two devs with incredible carreers still working with big names companies these days.

For the longest time I've been trying to guess who built what level, and it only hit just earlier today that we could get some answers through a very simple google search.

Again, we do not know if the absence of individual level credits was a company policy or not, and both devs are still working with big name companies so I really hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here, if I am I apologize and I'll get this post deleted if asked to.
Please do consider that:
- the following infos can be available to anyone from a quick and simple google search (one just needs to put 2 and 2 together from it)
- those games are 22 years old
- this approach is of good of heart, I only mean to help get facts straight to help a small part of Build Engine history


____________________

I have stumbled on Rhett Baldwin's portfolio: it is mentionned that he built all the levels in Redneck Deer Huntin', which so far is information we all had (one level designer credited). For Redneck Rampage Rides Again he mentionned, and I quote, "having made half of the game", under a Level Designer credit; which again coincides with the game having only 2 level designer credits.

The Rides Again page of the portfolio is where things get real. There are 16 screenshots on that page. Nobody would put a screenshot on their personal portfolio of a level area they didn't build.

The screenshots are:

E1L1: Area 69 (3 screenshots)
E1L2: Camino Del Diablo (1 screenshot)
E1L3: El Peso (1 screenshot)
E1L4: Jack-O-Lope Farm (5 screenshots)
E1L5: Waco (3 screenshots)
E2L7: Back To Hickston (2 screenshots)
DM MAP E3L1: Pipe Dreams (1 screenshot)

Now keep in mind, dual credits are still possible. However, I find it unlikely, except perhaps in the case of E1L6: El Peso Again (because half of that level is a re-use of E1L3 El Peso).
Based on levels style consistency however, my personal opinion is that dual credits are very unlikely.

Finally, that would make 6 confirmed SP levels he made out of 14, so we're missing one. I believe that one to be E1L6, for the reasons mentionned above, but also for this reason:
if we include E1L6, RB would have made every level in episode 1 outside of the last level of the episode. Which would also mean that AB made all levels in episode 2, except for the last level (which Rhett has 2 screenshots of on his portfolio), and that he would also have made E1L7: Refinery.
Therefore each designer would have made an entire episode, minus the last level of each episode being made by the other designer.

As for the rest of the DM levels, I'll reserve judgement for now. Since a good half of them are based on existing levels, it would be easy to credit them to the same author; however the industry proves this train of thought wrong in many instances (example: in HL Opposing Forces, there are CTF maps which were based on pre-existing DM maps; however the CTF maps weren't made by the DM maps designers).

P.S: I've always thought AB did Moto Madness and the swamp boats levels. It seems to be logical for me to go from these excellent vehicule levels (Moto Madness specifically) to what we know he designed in Half Life 2; and this would confirm it. However, my hunch has also always told me he made E1L7: Refinery, but it was more of a hunch than anything, and maybe that's this personal opinion speaking when I say that RB would have E1L6 (and thus, not E1L7), which I have no confirmation of outside of the one E1L3 screenshot (again, E1L3 is reused in E1L6).

Edit: forgot to mention, but we also get explanations on what he did for The Reckoning (Quake II add-on): one DM map. I don't recognize the screenshots though as I never even checked those DM maps, I think it's either of these two:
https://quake.fandom...eadly_Reckoning
https://quake.fandom...servoir_Stroggs

[NNC]

It seems to be a rather frequent thing that a different person ends an episode what was made by another one. Ie. Doom episode 1, Duke episode 1, 3. Maybe the boss levels should look different to the rest, but it was probably just a coincidence.

I really enjoyed Aaron Barber's work for the Gate in Duke. As for RRRA, I never finished it, but the swamp levels are kinda fine. Also RRRA had a better level design than RR.

[MetHy]

I've had a look at AB's maps from The Gate to try and confirm some of that above.

Turns out they're a gold mine of similar design cues. I'll just post the more obvious ones, which should help confirm the identity of the author of some of the maps.

Pillars with slopes from both directions from The Gate's E4M1:



From RR:RA's Refiney (E1L7):



It's not just an example, these pillars are verywhere.

Cross shaped beams for ceiling decoration from The Gate's E4M1:


From Refiney:



On top of these, AB had a particular style for ceilings which involved a lot of slopes and a lot of beams. This can be found everywhere both in The Gate but also in RA's levels such as Gamblin' Boat, but also the end of Brothel to a smaller extent.

Big chimney with a rectangle shape at the bottom, and at the top, a round floor aligned sprite:

The Gate:



Gamblin' Boat:



Finally, at the start of AB's E3M6 in The Gate, there is a round elevator going up, and the elevator door are these 2 huge sectors rotating to the side:



You can find the EXACT same elevator/rotating door setup in Gamblin' Boat, the elevator leading to the casino room.

There is more of course, for instance AB's use of extreme slope values in a lot of his work (to the point you can see the slopes display HOM when viewed from specific angles, Build engine thing), but these things are not as "tangible" as the above examples.

If we go by these things it's pretty clear to me that the list given in my previous post is more or less correct. But then, there are the things which could contradict it, most notably the design of the unreachable places:
If you look at unreachable places in AB's Secret Of The Acropolis level (e1l1), as well as in RA, you'll notice two things:
- unreachable architecture built on a smaller scale to make it feel like the unreachable place is farther away than it really is
- when there is a gated road, the road either "shrinks" (similar as miniature), or slopes up, or makes a sudden turn so that you can't see what's behind.

These methods of building unreachable places are actually NOT that common, and if we take SOTA into account we could credit them to AB. However, they're all over RA, even in levels attributed to RB according to his portfolio screenshots. However, none of his screenshots show any of these unreachable places specifically, but who knows if that's intentional or not.

One last thing to consider, which I think is very important, this quote from RB's portfolio regarding RA:

Quote

working closely with the other designer to maintain a consistent level of quality.

I believe this is why, outside of the obvious cases I showed above, it is so hard to guess who made what in the case of this game. This makes me believe that the unreachable places were most likely made the same way by the two designers exactly to keep a level of consistency for the whole game.
Due to that, there could a lot of dual credit maps also and it's near impossible to tell. I believe for instance that the outdoor area at the start of Refinery could be RB's, and the start of Brothel could be RB's also, so the maps would both be dual credits, but I have nothing tangible to fall back to... except this last thing:

The case of the portraits.
In El Peso /El Peso Again: in the jail you can find wanted posters of the devs. "Rhett the rat" would be RB, but there doesn't seem to be any wanted poster for AB.
However, Refinery has a "worker of the month" poster in the small employee break room, and that looks to be AB. That portrait would be in Refinery (E1L7) as a kind of "signature" for the map. This portrait isn't used anywhere else in the game.
However, the "Rhett the rat" wanted poster is ALSO used at the very start of Brothel (E2L6), but by itself, without the other devs posters. Could it also be a "signature"?

 The Watchtower, on 18 November 2020 - 02:03 PM, said:

I really enjoyed Aaron Barber's work for the Gate in Duke. As for RRRA, I never finished it, but the swamp levels are kinda fine. Also RRRA had a better level design than RR.

For the most part the swamp boat levels have a similar design as Downtown (original RR's E2L1) in that they're about huge places to explore where you go looking for keys from building to building. However, Camino Del Diablo, Moto Madness and Brothel are like proto-Half Life 2 vehicule maps; at least in that the player has to alternate between vehicular and on-foot sections to explore buildings and to clear a path (most often so you can continue with the vehicules).
I think the main issue with the swamp boat levels aren't so much the levels but the vehicule itself. The boat has a different driving feedback whether you use keyboard or mouse (it's a lot more slippery with the mouse) and the shooting is awkward, as the upward angle of the shells does not fit well with enemies which are half sinked into water. As a result, they had to make the shots count even when you shoot above enemies, so effectively the explosions trigger a meter above enemies heads more often than not, but they also do less damage that way.

[Phredreeke]

 MetHy, on 20 November 2020 - 06:36 AM, said:

Gamblin' Boat:

Spoiler

Ewww, Polymost skies

[MetHy]

Yeah I had to switch to polymost there to get a better view of the whole chimney.

[Phredreeke]

Nuke fixed that last year though

[MetHy]

Looks like I forgot to update Rednukem in my RA folder also then.

[MetHy]

MetHy, on 30 September 2020 - 12:26 AM, said:

Anyone has more Build engine and Build engine related (console ports etc) ads?

Here is what I got

Couple more ads but all I got are lousy ebay pictures and not proper scans

Gotta love the bullet points on the 2nd one

Spoiler

[oasiz]

SE_19_EXPLOSION_LOWERS_CEILING: //Battlestar galactia shields

It's documented already but I don't see places mentioning the side effect seen in the 95 videos, which is that it can control rotating lights when in sealing mode.
This is meant to be combined with the vacuum fx, both of these effects already exist in LD but they weren't combined at that point yet.

[dnskill]

The leaked V0.99 beta version of DN3D has a different version of GLASHEVY.VOC compared to the final version of the game. This video demonstrates why they likely made the change: https://www.youtube....h?v=FddnJXOUB1w

[oasiz]

Is it the same sample but the samplerate was changed? (Making pitch higher and speed quicker)

[dnskill]

Top is from the beta, bottom is from the final game. Seems you're right about it being the same sample, but the final version has not only a different sample rate, but it seems to be edited in general to be shorter in length overall. Less sounds coming towards the end of the audio.

[ck3D]

To this day I keep regularly discovering new stuff about this old game; I was just watching someone's playthrough of Lunar Apocalypse and spotted something I never realized was there before, which is an instance of tile #0 (the default shitty brick texture) in at least one of the base maps. It's obviously accidental (forgotten texturing on some double walls) and I'm sure the renderer the streamer was using makes the problem even more visible than it might have been back in the day - where off the top of my head, on default settings darkness would sometimes look just pitch black. But it's kind of blowing my mind for what it is still, I don't think I've seen that brought up before, is it a known thing? At least I never knew.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 09 May 2021 - 03:02 AM, said:

To this day I keep regularly discovering new stuff about this old game; I was just watching someone's playthrough of Lunar Apocalypse and spotted something I never realized was there before, which is an instance of tile #0 (the default shitty brick texture) in at least one of the base maps. It's obviously accidental (forgotten texturing on some double walls) and I'm sure the renderer the streamer was using makes the problem even more visible than it might have been back in the day - where off the top of my head, on default settings darkness would sometimes look just pitch black. But it's kind of blowing my mind for what it is still, I don't think I've seen that brought up before, is it a known thing? At least I never knew.

Hmmm just checked these tunnels in Dark Side out of curiosity in Mapster and there isn't any texture 0 there - maybe the guy was just using some bugged out version of the map/missed some arts/renderer problems?

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 09 May 2021 - 03:29 AM, said:

Hmmm just checked these tunnels in Dark Side out of curiosity in Mapster and there isn't any texture 0 there - maybe the guy was just using some bugged out version of the map/missed some arts/renderer problems?

That's so weird! From what I gathered, he was using basic ass Megaton. Everything else in his playthrough of the entire episode (and of the game from what I've watched thus far) looked fine to me.

[dnskill]

EDIT: If you saw this post I had to redo it all...
It seems it can happen in DOS Atomic, WT, Total Meltdown, and Megaton. It looks the way it should on N64 and through EDuke32. The Saturn version replaces this area with teleporters.

So I wonder if it happens in V1.3D?

The weird thing is some videos showing this level on youtube using these various versions (excluding N64 and Saturn), some show the right tile while others don't.. so wtf is the deal here?!! Is it a bug? Sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't? Regional GRP difference? IDK.

[High Treason]

Dark Side sure seems more prone to this than any other level. I'm still trying to find the cause and, as I have done several times before, would ask anyone who encounters it to save their game, type DNDEBUG to dump the map (as DEBUG.MAP) and upload the resulting files. You know how the world is, where now that I've wanted the game to do this, it never seems to happen.

Still, at least I have another spot to look at now, though it's weird that it happens on multiple walls at once. It's also interesting that they're window/forcefield walls, because the one outside the crater airlock that seems most prone to it used to be a window at one time in development.

[Jimmy]

There's definitely some kind of corruption to the map. I wonder if this is present on some or all of the pre-release versions.

[oasiz]

My wild guess is that since these specific walls are maskwalled with BIGFORCE, there are some oddities that can happen.
I tried blowing it with rockets and I tried checking by blowing the reactor to see it it triggers it (as these have a tendency to trigger more than needed) but no luck. I even tried tagging the BIGFORCE to be disabled but it didn't throw me tile0.
Duke code has some remnants that apply to BIGFORCE specifically, like the vacuum shield windows, which actually let you destroy the force field!
Curiously the other end of these forcefield things do have tilenum0.

I wonder if something is simply triggering the "channel 0" of these shields and things go haywire?
Just pure speculation at this point.

[High Treason]

The thing is, I'm not sure the mask is still set on the one near the airlock, but I'd have to go back and check again. I've been playing the level whilst logging all of the values of things for those walls in EDuke, have just played 'abusively' in the DOS original, but annoyingly I can't get it to go off at all any more. Will keep trying.

Rockets don't work, nor do drone explosions (I've no idea why those would be different aside from, maybe, the owner value or something). Reactors, yeah, I had issues when using them in maps - I know I have a map out there with some weird tags going on to work around a reactor mysteriously setting off every explosion in said level - and I'd almost wondered about really obscure things like the reactor's explosions 'hitting' the forcefield windows behind it.

Not really related, but I once had items in a map move towards a single point like the vacuum effect and could never figure out how or why it happened. Unfortunately I think the grainy recording of it was lost around 2007 to drive failures and I feel more like that was corruption of memory, as I don't think the effect itself is in the game's code any more.

I do think tag 0 likely has something to do with it, somewhere, but can't really rule out other things, like the wall array being corrupted somewhere.

[ck3D]

@High Treason IIRC reactors have always been coded to do that, their destruction will trigger any Masterswitch in the level that doesn't have a Hitag (or more exactly has one of zero) - and Masterswitches will trigger any C9 in their sector regardless of their channel values - that's why mine always come with a Hitag of at least 1 'just in case' since I know the function just exists - even if there's no reactor in the level, I'd always rather be safe than sorry. That's brought up a few times in the Infosuite so my apologies if that's already common knowledge to you, but unless I missed something more specific that you meant there is nothing 'mysterious' about that behavior.

[dnskill]

I was reading this TCRF page as well as this thread, and it had me thinking about a few things that I wanted to bring up here:

It's likely well known by now that hlminhal and hlmexhal have been found in Duke Nukem Total Meltdown's sound data. They were used for the airtank likely when it had the goggles (before V0.99), and it would've likely interchanged between the two sounds for as long as Duke had the item activated. It could've also been for the spacesuit.

Quote

definesound DUKE_BREATHING hlminhal.voc 0 0 255 4 0
definesound DUKE_EXHALING hlmexhal.voc 0 0 255 4 0

Comparing the technical parameters of those, as well as practically every Duke (himself) sound's technical parameters, plus the obvious hint here with it being included in "Duke Movement Sounds", we can infer that this is an unused Duke line:

Quote

definesound DUKE_YES yes.voc 0 0 255 4 0

Perhaps this was a nod towards ROTT, as one of the character's says "Yes!" when certain things take place in the game. Since there's a few others like DUKE_PASSWIND, DUKE_GLAD, DUKE_HEHE, and DUKE_SHUCK, we can assume these are also unused Duke lines, but these are not defined, only labeled, so I can't compare the bit parameters. PASSWIND is obviously meant to be a fart or a reaction to such a thing. No idea what the others could be, but my guess is HEHE and SHUCK could've been taunts, while GLAD may have been a line used for something specific to a level or use of an item. There's another sound that has a definition but is missing the sound file:

Quote

definesound GENERIC_AMBIENCE22 vpiss2.voc 0 0 255 4 0

The parameters are the same as the other GENERIC_AMBIENCE sounds that are Duke lines (as well as most of his other sounds). So this is likely also another cut line.

If vpiss2.voc is an unused Duke sound, then that would mean there are 8 cut Duke related sounds that are mentioned in the CON files, and they existed in V0.99 and onward. If we include the 2 sounds that were removed after V0.99 (think06.voc and seen01.voc), that would be 10 cut Duke sounds, 11 if you count the sound from the beta's RTS file that was replaced with Duke's scream in the final release.

With all that considered, and not including audio that exists in the GRP but is unreferenced/unused, I'd guess there's likely around 12-15 lines total that may have been cut from the game, but only 11 of them do we have any leftovers of. As I said, DUKE_BREATHING/DUKE_EXHALING have been found, and of course the beta contains 3 lines that were not found in later versions, but as for the rest - I don't think there's any sound files around for those. Maybe a few made their way into DNTM and DNZH, but I'm unsure.

[Jimmy]

Total Meltdown and Zero Hour had their own unique recording sessions, so it's unlikely.