[NNC]

 MetHy, on 10 November 2020 - 08:18 AM, said:

Those toilets have oversized doors and they glitch out by crossing other sectors when opened. I don't think those are RT's but I could be wrong. Like I said, there are clues that indicate this map wasn't as polished as the rest.

As for the rest, RT was lead level designer so his influence must have reached beyond the maps he started or worked on. This being said you have a point about the karaoke's aquarium, even the way you reach the backarea is reminiscent to the way you reach the aquarium's control room in Smithsonian, with a semi hidden switch on the side of a wall.

I didn't notice the door glitches, just the one door that rotate anticlockwise, but Travis had this trend of using expansive toilet areas and even connect them with some egg-filled vents. Btw. even the control room with the security screens is so Travis-esque, also the windows that show you the locked room with the key, so for me it's not even a question he made most of this level. In fact this is the map of Caribbean that have strong traces back to his old romanesque (Anslem/Betatwo/DC) style, while the rest of his work looked different, I would never tell if Lost Lagoon or Caribbean Catastrophe are actually Travis levels. He really moved out of his comfort zone with them, while Full House could have been placed in Duke it out in DC without the caribbean art.

[PokeThePower]

 The Watchtower, on 10 November 2020 - 07:52 AM, said:

I think it's Robert Travis. The elevators, the toilets, the underwater segments, the octabrain segments all cry for Travis.

I am 100% certain it was not his originally... at no point would anyone at Sunstorm have considered making a Travis map the secret level. However knowing the degree to which Market Melee improved when he put his spin on my layout (which didn't change)... it stands to reason that the original Full House and the released version are even *more* divergent than Market Melee. Dual credit for it is appropriate.

 The Watchtower, on 10 November 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

Btw. Wieder, why don't you build more maps for Duke?

Most of my overtime hours effort where I would be able to is spent improving whatever my formal gig is focused on. Level design was always my secondary skillset/passion and the last time I put effort into building a fully realized space was a Halo 4 Forge map and we opted not to finish that space versus the primary things I was focused on and have built my career around.

[NNC]

The most I can think of the map it's being a stump before Travis started working on it. Or maybe it was a reject of Duke DC, and that's why it ended up being a secret level. But of course I could be wrong, and someone else did an extraordinary job at copying his style. It's still the most travisesque map in the expansion, and even if compared to stuff like Dread October in DC.

[MetHy]

 The Watchtower, on 10 November 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

I didn't notice the door glitches, just the one door that rotate anticlockwise, but Travis had this trend of using expansive toilet areas and even connect them with some egg-filled vents. Btw. even the control room with the security screens is so Travis-esque, also the windows that show you the locked room with the key, so for me it's not even a question he made most of this level. In fact this is the map of Caribbean that have strong traces back to his old romanesque (Anslem/Betatwo/DC) style, while the rest of his work looked different, I would never tell if Lost Lagoon or Caribbean Catastrophe are actually Travis levels. He really moved out of his comfort zone with them, while Full House could have been placed in Duke it out in DC without the caribbean art.

Funny, when I think of Travis the first thing that comes to my mind isn't the little details but the bigger things like the way his layouts are interconnected and the way he took Romero's concept of "if you can see an unreachable place, it's actually a reachable secret" and expanded it tenfold.

But these are very good point about the details. However! I also think the layout is a bit too simple for a Travis level. If you look at the keypads, you can see one in one side of the map, one on the other side, with forced backtracking between the two and little connections between the areas. To me that looks like the easy way to build a layout, and on a conceptual level, by the time Caribbean was in dev, Travis would have built the layout so that he could make easy connections between the areas. To me fact the fact that they had to add teleporters for Deathmatch to work in that level when none other levels in the ep required that (not that all levels are multiplayer friendly, but some are) is a further testimony to that.
On that topic, the vents that you mentionned and that you think Travis built serve that purpose to connect areas together, and I always thought they felt a bit forced. Now I'm convinced they are Travis' way to patch the layout up

Also, if you look at the (untagged) secret places, they all look like afterthoughts. As in, "where can I add secret places in this already existing levels?" and Travis would have most likely included secret levels directly as part of the layout on a conceptual level. He would have also made sure that the location of whole place was made more obvious by adding outdoor areas somewhere around the start of the map (for the longest time I had no idea where the secret exit to this level was and, despite the outdoor area at the end of the map, always wrongly assumed the casino was supposed to be a floor on Wavemistress. I think this is because of the lack of proper location cues within the map).

In other words I don't think he started this level, unless like you said it was a much older concept, and dual credits with Bill starting the map and RT finishing someone else's map sounds about right. Now if we only we had a beta version of the map to confirm that!
This could also explain the absence of sigs in the map: Bill forgot to include his sig because the map was unfinished, and Travis didn't feel comfortable with adding his sig if Bill's wasn't in it either, because that'd look like claiming the entire map. I'd have included the other person's sig myself

Spoiler

I did that

but he's not me. Would have certainly helped with 20+ years olds detective work though!

[MetHy]

Sorry for the double post, but I've had a closer look at Bill Buchalter's known maps from the Sunstorm era and tried to see if I could find some connections with A Full House (VACASL.map).

I've looked at Old Opera House (CP02.map) and Crypt of Despair (CPBB1.map) from Cryptic Passage as well as Big Bertha's (TRUCKSTP.map) from Route 66, and to me there are some ucanny likeness in the detailing.
I haven't yet searched for potential other maps he may have built outside of these 2 add-ons.

Spoiler

Rounded pillars in CP02:




Rounded pillars in VACASL:








Sloped archway in CP02 and CPBB1:





Sloped archway in VACASL:





Revolving stairs in CP02:



Revolving stairs in VACASL:



Vertical pillar inside horizontal pillar in TRUCKSTP and CPBB1:





The contrary in VACASL:



This pillar thing may not look like much of a clue, however I believe that a lot of level designers wouldn't bother designing them with the extra walls like that and instead would just do it like this:

Now, these are only examples and you can find more of them a bit everywhere. Perhaps it's not much and I'm reading too much into things, Buchalter wouldn't be the only one to use these kind of design cues, however he seemed to easily fall into them, so I am convinced it is something. I am however less convinced about the pillars thing than I am with the other stuff.

As for Big Bertha's, there isn't much to work with in that level, as it's a much more simple level that looks like it was more quickly put together. However, I think the most important aspect of that map (in regards to this guesswork) is that it was made by two mappers, and the sig leaves a clue: it's not Bill's usual sig ("WBB") meaning that the sig was most likely made by the other level designer (Billy Joe), and I think that text next to the sig only further supports that idea. This, with the fact that Billy Joe's name comes first, makes me think that 1) Billy Joe would be the primary mapper there and 2) Since his usual sig is missing, maybe Buchalter would tend to only put his sig in a map towards the end of the map's development cycle; which would at the same time explain the unusual sig here and and the missing sig in A Full House.

In other words I'm more and more convinced the map was indeed started by Bill and finished by Travis.

Upon closer look of A Full House I also spotted a couple of other things, which may be clues, but they're much more smaller details so I'm not as confident about them as the ones I just showed: if you look at the restaurant, the one full of sloped archways and rounded pillars, you'll notice that the doorway leading to the kitchen does not have the sloped archway design. Between this, and the way the switch that unlocks the cabinet is hidden in the washing machine (typical senseless yet sensible switch hunt that Travis would use), I think the kitchen was built by Travis.

Also, if you look at the "startrek" door leading to the restaurant, the one locked by the blue key, and open the door, you'll notice that the trimming on the door sector's ceiling and floor are oriented the wrong way. This is the kind of stuff that happens when you move areas around and rotate them 90° (and in this case, you wouldn't easily notice that the texture is wrongly oriented since you need the door opened for that), this could be a clue that Travis moved the restaurant area so that he could connect it to the shark pools and the floor below. However, it could also mean that only the door was copy pasted and rotated from somewhere else, furthermore the opposite door (yellow keypad) has the same issue, one of the doors is most likely a paste from the other one so maybe it's the outdoor area which was moved and rotated.
And again, yes, I know I'm reaching with those, they're only hypothetical.

P.S: sorry about the different screenshots resolutions

[NNC]

I think it's possible the check the sector and sprite numbers, and some kind of reverse engineering can be done with it. For example in Occupied Territory the very first sector is the large corridor that leads from the opening area to the big red room. These areas were made originally for episode 1 as a boss level, so if you have time, you can check them in Full House as well. If the aquarium part or the restroom or the elevators have larger sector numbers it probably means they were late additions. But that's not as easy as it looks, Travis could have modified the original sectors too. The elevator might be an example of this.

[NNC]

Btw. in Duke DC levels I remember some key placements that needed long backtracking, some of them even without action, Capitol Punishment was the most obvious offender.

[MetHy]

 The Watchtower, on 13 November 2020 - 12:05 AM, said:

Btw. in Duke DC levels I remember some key placements that needed long backtracking, some of them even without action, Capitol Punishment was the most obvious offender.

Good point

 The Watchtower, on 13 November 2020 - 12:01 AM, said:

I think it's possible the check the sector and sprite numbers, and some kind of reverse engineering can be done with it. For example in Occupied Territory the very first sector is the large corridor that leads from the opening area to the big red room. These areas were made originally for episode 1 as a boss level, so if you have time, you can check them in Full House as well. If the aquarium part or the restroom or the elevators have larger sector numbers it probably means they were late additions. But that's not as easy as it looks, Travis could have modified the original sectors too. The elevator might be an example of this.

That is an excellent point and I should have thought about this. As you said though it's not a bulletproof method as sector numbers can vary even during development. When old sectors are deleted, it will change the sectnum of all the sectors after that. Another example would be, let's say an area is made of 2 sectors, sector number 10 and 11, then near the end of dev some work is done on that area and the two sectors are joined, the sector number would now one of the last sector numbers, like 400+.

Still, I believe these can give valuable clues and we can also look at sprite numbers.

Also, now that Gothic Library beta was released, we have a comparison point. It is a map started by another mapper and finished by RT, which we believe is the exact case as A Full House.

Now, just to show how misleading this method can be, we can compare the sectnums in Gothic Library beta vs final: there are about 480sectors in the final version, only 20 more sectors compared to the beta yet we do know for sure that RT filled the west ibrary room and added 2 areas as well (the 2nd floor west library room and the exit). The reason is because a lot of sectors were deleted.

We can however infer that if most sectnums in an area are in a certain range, that range is a hint as to when the area was built.
If sectnums vary a lot within a same area, it can also consolidate our idea of what happened to that area.

For Gothic Library looking at the sectnums from those RT areas do tell us that this method can be trusted to some extent:
- the 1st floor library room shows only sectnums around 310-330 range
- the the 2nd floor library room shows only sectnums around 360
- the outdoor area shows only sectnums from around 380 onwards, to the last existing sectnums being the unreachable area past the EOL copy pasted from the next level.

In other words RT would have filled the 1st floor library first to get himself accomodated with the map, then made the 2nd floor library, then the exit. He actually built things in the same order the player goes through.

Now if we look at an area that Shawn Swift built and that Robert Travis modified: the entrance corridor and the 1st floor west library. Sectnums of adjacent sectors can vary a lot, for instance the corridor floor would be sectnum 80 and the window next to it that we know RT built 293, and some similar cases in the library room where the doorway was deleted and where the blown up wall was turned into a bookshelf. Again, this method can be trusted to some extent.

The window sectnum being 293 also tells us that it's one of the first things RT added, thus we can offer he probably did the cutting and patching work first, deciding on his layout before building any room. That makes sense.

___________________________

Now that we know this method can be trusted to some extent, we can apply it A Full House:

This entire analysis is based on the assumption that Bill Buchalter started the map and that Robert Travis finished it. This assumption could be wrong.

There are a total of 504 sectors.

The very last sectnums are the exit area: the boat, and the sectors around show sectnums around the 490-500. I think RT would done some work on that exit area to wrap the map up:
(see sectnums on the bottom left of screenshots):
https://i.imgur.com/L5o2VaP.png

Remember what I said in my previous post how about BB would build his pillars a certain way and other mappers would do it in a more simple way and wouldn't bother detailing them further? I think this would be even more true in the case of RT if his goal was to get the map done ASAP. I just realized that the other pillars in that area are built in that more simple way, and they show varying sectnums from 266, 288, jumping to 452 , 453 for adjacent sectors of that same pillar construction:
https://i.imgur.com/vm7Rjd6.png

Meanwhile, the "BB pillars" (or so I believe) from that area that I mentionned before show sectnums in the 270-275 range.

Futhermore, just like the pillars which don't have BB's style, this doorway doesn't have BB's trademark sloped archway:
https://i.imgur.com/FaWvTtS.png

Its sectnum is 498 (it would be RT's), yet the adjacent sector is 271. On top of the jump in sectnum and the absence of sloped archway, the misaligned and mishaded floor texture of the doorway is a further clue that RT would have patched things up here and had to wrap things up quickly.

Finally, let's look at the sprite numbers from this area. There are 700 sprites in the level.
The decorative flowers have spritenums 0, 1, and so forth. They are the first sprites inserted in the level. The enemies have spritenums in the early 100, so they were also added early.
The tree on the left is spritenum 229 but the tree on the right 549.
The dukematch spawn and the dm-only shotgun are 606-607.

Conclusion for this area:
- I think this area existed early on and was started by BB; but then RT finished it and used it as the exit area. Just like for Gothic Library, the exit was built last.
- Just like in the case of Gothic Library, some enemy/supplies were already present before RT worked on the map, and were kept as is for the final version.
- Based on this area, but also on what we believe was done by RT in the rest of the map (elements pointed out by The Watchtower as well), I think we can consider sectnum 280 to be the cut-off point. The majority of sectors before sectnum 280 would be BB's, and the ones after would be RT's.

Other interesting points:
- This area with sloped archway and a revolving stairs that I believed to be BB's have sectnums in the 55-65 range:
https://i.imgur.com/7IuhCr2.png

The enemy sprites in that area, including the respawns, also have early spritenums. The touchplate which activates those respawns, which is in the fountain from the starting area when you pick up the red key, also has an early spritrenum.
Most of the fountain has very early sectnums as well, ranging from sector 26 to 41; it would have been one of the first things built by BB; but the key itself has a spritenum of 613 (one of the last sprites placed in); and the south wall sector of the fountain connecting it to the starting area is 436.
The starting area floor is 355, but the elevator is 483.
In other words, just like the exit, the entrance elevator is one of the last things built. We can infer that RT did all that (the elevator, patching up the fountain so it connects better downstairs, placing the keycard) as part of his work on the layout/progression of the level.

- The control room has sectnums which jump from the 100 range to 380-450
https://i.imgur.com/oPWE95G.png
Again, this room would have been started by BB but finished by RT. The two switches have early spritenums (43, 44), but the sectors the first switch is in has a very late sectnum (460-463).
The sector that lowers is 369.
In other words the switches mechanic would have been made by BB but RT improved the setup.

- Another clue that RT worked on the progression/layout would be the sectnums of the keypad, around the 440 range. 434, 439 and 440 respectively.

- The two "startrek doors" located upstairs that I mentionned earlier (locked by blue and yellow keys). The blue key door is sectnum 80, the other one is 297. This sectums after the blue door connecting to the shipwrek lounge are in the 320 range. This consolidates my previous guess that the blue door was moved and rotated, and that the yellow door is a paste of the blue door.

- As I just said the reception area of the shipwreck lounge is in the 320, but most of the restaurant itself is in the early 200.
However, this corridor leading to the kitchen is also a later work while the kitchen itself is a mix between early and later sector work:
https://i.imgur.com/QShAopE.png

Most of the aquarium of the lounge are also very early sectors.
As for the karaoke that is connected to the aquarium on the other side, it is also a mix of early and late sectors. The bar itself is sectnum 1 and the sectors behind it also very early sectors, but the customer side (karoake itself, tables etc) are later sectnums.
As for the back door employee area that allows the player to swin inside the shark tanks: it is also a mix of early and late sectors. However, the switch that opens that area from the bar, that I previously said was RT's trademark, is indeed a late spritenum.

Finally, just like for the corridors that connects this entire restaurant/karaoke area to the rest of the level upstairs, this corridor that connects it downstairs is also a late sectnum:
https://i.imgur.com/VmDEECz.png

My conclusion for this entire shipwreck lounge/aquarium/karaoke area: as stated by The Watchtower, the aquarium and its employee area are very Travis-esque, and he's right as it is very reminiscent of The Smithsonian. However, the very early sectnums show that they would have been built by BB.
What I believe happened here is that RT took already existing areas, and moved/rotated them so that they could be connected by the aquarium. While doing so, he repurposed the room downstairs into a karaoke (more on that just after) and expanded the back door aquarium area giving it the Travis touch. I believe he also made that one shark tank that connects both rooms bigger on the Z axis, again giving it that Travis feel Watchtower mentionned.
He may also have built some of the water tanks himself, as at least one of them is in the 250 range, but that would go against my previously stated cut-off point of 280.

- I stated that the bar of the karaoke was sectnum 1. Sectnum 0 is actually this poker table from the west side downstairs, far from the karaoke bar itself:
https://i.imgur.com/QYAYHN1.png
However, the sectors around it show much higher numbers.
The poker table on the other side to the east is also an early number (77) while the sectors around it don't match at all.

Having sector 0 and sector 1 in two completely different ares hardly makes sense. My hunch tells me that the karaoke room was actually a poker room, maybe with the poker tables in the middle and the bar in the same place it is in the final version. RT would have re-purposed into a karaoke, while turning the entire establishement into a casino rather than a part of it by laying these tables everywhere.

Furthermore, the slot machines on the east sides are early sectnums within the BB range, but the ones on the west side are late sectnums from the RT range. I think this consolidates this idea. This being said, there is not much else to back-up this theory. In fact, these decorative sprite that tell that the areas are supposed to be casino areas, are early spritenums, even the one from the west side which is where I attribute the RT casino work:
https://i.imgur.com/K6v90DO.png
Maybe the concept of having both rooms be casino was already present, as a concept, just not finished, and RT finished that. Most likely, the idea was to only have the slots machines here, on both sides; but RT moved and included the poker table near the slots so he could use the poker room for karaoke.

I could probably go on but I think you get the point and my cat jumped on my keyboard erasing the last third of this post that I had to re-do so I'm a bit tired of it.

Anyway - like I said this is just theory based on the assumption that there are indeed two mappers; but between Wieder saying that this sounds right, and the two different design styles you can find in the map pointed out by The Watchtower and myself; on top of the fact that we know for sure that RT did finish other mapper's levels in other cases, makes me think we're probably not far off at all.
Also, I don't intend to brag, only to say that I am very confident about these theories: a couple of my hunches about Gothic Library turned out to be true with the release of its beta version. On top of this, I have myself been in the same position as RT (for Ion Fury, taking unfinished maps, rethinking the layout/progression, adding rooms and the finishing details and loose ends) so I have already been in a similar state of mind.
This being said I could still be wrong, and hopefully one day we'll find a beta of this map too to confirm all this or not.

[NNC]

Wow, that's a doctoral dissertation MetHy.

[MetHy]

Yes, nothing can stop me when I start to obssess over something

I also love Build level design, the Sunstorm add-ons, and these two maps in particular (Gothic Library and A Full House), and they both contained years old mysteries.

I forgot to mention the toilets and the vents we previously discussed. Continuing the established theory and using the sectnum 280 cut-off point, both things would be started by BB and finished by RT.
Most of the vents would have been made by BB (one of the them is one of the first sectors, too), but RT would have moved them and extended them, also building that one area with the eggs in between two vents (that you attributed to him).
Since some of the rooms were moved, the vents had to be moved and extended as well. Just like for the doors trimming texture, this would explain why the vents have misaligned floor/ceiling textures.

The toilets and the discussion we had about it before: BB would have made the original doors, but RT would have copy pasted that door for the toilet of the opposite gender. He would also have made the extra sectors for the lighting. Thus, BB would be responsible for the odd door sizes, but RT would be responsible for the doors crossing another sector's boundary. This being said, the door to the control room which is also oddly sized seems to be RT's at least according to its sectnum; but like I said I'd rather look at groups of sectors rather than lone sectors to make such conclusions more certain.

[NNC]

 MetHy, on 13 November 2020 - 05:23 AM, said:

Yes, nothing can stop me when I start to obssess over something

I also love Build level design, the Sunstorm add-ons, and these two maps in particular (Gothic Library and A Full House), and they both contained years old mysteries.

I forgot to mention the toilets and the vents we previously discussed. Continuing the established theory and using the sectnum 280 cut-off point, both things would be started by BB and finished by RT.
Most of the vents would have been made by BB (one of the them is one of the first sectors, too), but RT would have moved them and extended them, also building that one area with the eggs in between two vents (that you attributed to him).
Since some of the rooms were moved, the vents had to be moved and extended as well. Just like for the doors trimming texture, this would explain why the vents have misaligned floor/ceiling textures.

The toilets and the discussion we had about it before: BB would have made the original doors, but RT would have copy pasted that door for the toilet of the opposite gender. He would also have made the extra sectors for the lighting. Thus, BB would be responsible for the odd door sizes, but RT would be responsible for the doors crossing another sector's boundary. This being said, the door to the control room which is also oddly sized seems to be RT's at least according to its sectnum; but like I said I'd rather look at groups of sectors rather than lone sectors to make such conclusions more certain.

I have similar sentiments towards Allen Blum's levels, and to a lesser extent, Levelord's too. I love analysing their maps. I love Romero's work too, also the Castle's for Doom, but I never liked Doom Builder, it doesn't give me the same comfort as Mapster does. Sunstorm, I don't know. I remember I was poking Duke DC maps back then to add stuff and better enemy placement, but it doesn't give me the same vibe as the original. I think Travis was to Duke what were the Casalis for Doom. He made a legit spinoff from the same assets.

[MetHy]

Does anyone know of any other Build, or maybe Doom or even Quake, level by Bill Buchalter? I have a hard time to believe he'd be hired by Sunstorm without having released anything before, but my researchs have proven unsuccessful.

[MetHy]

I swore to myself I'd stop here, so I'll try to keep this short and to the point.
I couldn't stop thinking about what The Watchtower said:

 The Watchtower, on 10 November 2020 - 07:52 AM, said:

I think it's Robert Travis. The elevators, the toilets, the underwater segments, the octabrain segments all cry for Travis.

Really, just compare the karaoke bar segment with the aquariums on the side to Smithsonian's Living ocean. They are totally similar in style, even the keycard colour is the same in the pool.

 The Watchtower, on 11 November 2020 - 11:53 PM, said:

The most I can think of the map it's being a stump before Travis started working on it. Or maybe it was a reject of Duke DC, and that's why it ended up being a secret level. But of course I could be wrong, and someone else did an extraordinary job at copying his style. It's still the most travisesque map in the expansion, and even if compared to stuff like Dread October in DC.

So I had a look through the entirety of RT's Build work, from Beta One to Route 66's Oddity Museum, his last known released Build maps; but also the Xtreme levels some of which may predate Beta One (some of the DM levels, at least).

I now believe that The Watchtower is right, A Full House would be 100% by Robert Travis, and that I was wrong to attribute the first half of A Full House to WBB. Everything else I said about the development of A Full House still stands, but instead of RT finishing a WBB map, RT would have taken an older map of his, re-purposed it and finished it.

I dismissed the idea of the level being 100% RT very quickly based on:
A ) what Wieder said: there is no way Sunstorm would consider making a Travis map a secret level, dual credit sounding right, the fact that the credits couldn't have two mappers with no work to show for
B ) my own experience on RT's levels and some of the some flaws of A Full House that, which I refused to attribute to RT
C ) The design cues that I found in WBB's other levels that can also be found in A Full House. Therefore attributing these design cues to WBB and not RT.

Now, time to debunk all of this:

A ) For Wieder, I'm very sorry to say this and there is no hard feelings, but first he attributed the level to Shawn Swift and himself said he stopped working with Sunstorm before Caribbean Life was made, so that was taken out of the question. Wieder himself then said his memory could be faulty.
Remains the possibility that RT would have taken an older unfinished map by Swift and finished it (replacing SCS by WBB in this hypothesis also works) but the last part of my post will explain why I believe this is not the case.

As for having not one by TWO level designers listed in the credits with NO work to show for? I have no real explanation, only a couple of hypothesis with nothing whatsoever to back them up:
- Maybe there was a confusion between who worked on which add-on.
- Maybe WBB was supposed to work on Caribbean Life but didn't, maybe he did start a map but it didn't make it (Caribbean Life does have less maps than any of the other Sunstorm add-ons)
- As shown in this thread, it is possible that very small contrustctions by other mappers (in that example, the truck) were used in RT's maps. Maybe that's what the credits are for, although a thanks would have probably been enough

B ) My own thoughts on RT's work was incomplete: when I thought of RT, I mainly thought of his later works, his masterpieces, and tend to forget about his older works, that I didn't know as well.
Furthermore, the flaws that I refused to attribute to RT can in fact be found in many of RT's level: the toilets and their big doors for instance. RT tends to build his toilet stalls very large, larger than in Hollywood Holocaust, and because he never adds small walls next to the toilet doors that would cover a part of the stall's width, the doors cover the entire size of the stall and thus they're wider than they should be. This is true of the vast majority of his toilets and you check his DC maps, you'll find it easily.
As for the doors crossing another sector, this is also a flaw that can be found in several of his DC maps.

However, both these things, the door sizes specifically, are very common flaws, so they do not make proof of a map's author. The point is, these things can be attributed to him, unlike I previously stated.

C ) The design cues that I attributed to WBB are: the horizontal/vertical pillars, the decorative semi-rounded pillars in the corner of rooms, the sloped archway for doors ways, the revolving staircases.
The horizontal/vertical pillar design isn't even similar between WBB's levels and A Full house. The revolving staircases are something RT's always loved, you can find many, even going back to Beta One.

As for the rest? They're actually design cues that RT used to detail his usermaps, before he turned pro. This is where the theory by The Watchtower that A Full House was based on an older work of his makes sense, and how you can apply by previous analysis on sectnums and spritenums to know which part of the map are older.
My theory is that as soon as he turned pro, RT didn't detail his levels as much because the point was to get maps done asap. He did have an INCREDIBLY prolific period at Sunstorm between 1996 and 1997, building I don't know how many levels, on top of being Lead on some of the projects, so I think it makes sense.

Case in my point with some of his most notable maps before the Sunstorm era, Anslem and Aztec: sloped archways (whether they're doorways or not) and rounded pillars absolutely everywhere the eye can see, and that last screenshot with the sloped archway leading to a revolving staircase is golden considering since you can find the exact same thing at the start of A Full House:











These are only examples, you can find more in Guilt, and you can even find a couple of sloped achway in The Smithsonian.

But there is more. When looking through his maps I spotted more RT design cues:

- This texture for the lights (from DC maps):







RT favored this light texture among all light textures, and you can easily check in the tile browser in his DC maps, in most of his maps this tile will be the most used light texture. This can not be said for other mappers.

Now, in A Full House, this is also the case:







They're absolutely everywhere, and the important thing is that SOME of these are very early sectors (the karaoke bar area for instance), and SOME of them are late sectors; meaning that he'd have made both.

Now, check those screenshots again and look at the side of those lights (when they're lowered frorm the ceiling): notice how they're not properly textured. This is true in some of the DC maps (Dread October) and this is also true in A Full House whether it's an early or late sectnum. What happened is that he didn't bother to texture the side of the lights and kept whatever texture was there to begin with, this is proven by the fact that if you build and lower a sector in the kitchen, you get the same side texture as the light there:



But, if you check other maps, the side of the lights are properly textured, unlike in Dread October and A Full House, whether they use that same light texture or not. However, Dread October and A Full House have another thing in common: both have no tagged secret places (the secret count is 0), I think both maps were made more quickly, not as polished, and that he'd polish the lights later on during dev if he had time. Again, efficiency with his work ethics during the Sunstorm era, going straight to the point and not caring about the little details so much (unless he had time). Not only I think this shows those lights are his, even the early one, but this helps explaining why he dropped some of the above design cues during the Sunstorm era, as he'd only bother with the finer details if he had time.
Also, if you still believe someone else started the map, RT could have changed the lights texture to his for consistency, but since he didn't bother texturing the sides, I don't think he'd bother doing that either.

Now, the elevators. 99% of RT's elevator are all shaped the same way, see the elevator 5 screenshots ago. It's not just shape, but also size, which always seems to be about the same. This goes back to Beta One, too; can be found a lot in his DC maps, etc.
Elevator in A Full House:



Of course it's an early sectnum.
Again, if you still believe the map could have been started by someone else, you could say RT could have changed the shape and size of this elevator, after all unlike for sectors and sprite, one can't tell at one point a wall was added. But again, considering how quickly the maps seems to have been made, I don't believe he'd bother doing that, even if the elevator wasn't functional.

Now, the textures. RT was absolutely in love with the brown and blue marble textures, you can find it everywhere in his work though most notably in Anslem/Aztec (see the pics above). A Full House also uses these 2 marble textures a lot, even in the early sectnums areas.

Then, the round shapes. Build has a special key to automatically build semi-circles, but during his early work it's pretty obvious by the shapes that RT used to draw his round shapes himself. As time went on, he started doing this less and less and using the C key more (until the Monastery map in WD, his "c-key masterpiece").
Some of the round shapes in A Full House seem to have been drawn by hand, some seems to use the c-key. Not going to share pictures for all this but you can check for yourself (check Beta One for hand drawn, Monastery for c-key).

Finally, remains the question of the absence of sig:
- if the map was based on an earlier unfinished map, it makes sense it had no sig then. If he had to finish the map quickly, which seems to be the case (none of the secrets are tagged, lack of polish for the lights and other things) he could simply have forgotten about adding the sig.
- There is also the question of the map "Library", a DM map with no sig. That map however to me has always been Travis, and looking at it now I'm even more convinced of that even if the elevator and the lights do not match his preffered designs, you should be able to see many RT design cues there (plus it's an excellent DM map and RT made a lot of excellent DM maps, from Mohave to Anslem X which he won a contest with).
In short, I believe Library is also RT and it doesn't have a sig either, but again, this is just another hypothesis.

Remains also the hypothesis that WBB would have copied RT's style, but if he did that, to the point he'd even copy RT's flaws, he's the best mimic ever.

Conclusion: I now believe A Full House is indeed 100% RT, a first half built during the same time period as Anslem/Aztec, then repurposed for Caribbean and finished some time near the end of dev of the add-on.
I'm going to stop now, for real, before the next thing we find out is that it was Wieder's map all along

[William Beavis]

Would anybody recommend the expansion for the single player?

[MetHy]

Damn it, I think you got the point by now but I forgot to mention the fountains, how RT loved buildings fountains and how he'd almost always build them made of at two areas of different heights, most often with a waterfall connecting the two water areas (Anslem, Beta Two, Caribbean Catastrophe). Of course the fountain in A Full House is similar and it's made of early sectnums.

Edit:

and to conclude, the "A Living Ocean" aquarium in The Smithsonian is actually a remake of the "'A Living Ocean" aquarium from Beta One.
Beta One also has a subway area, which contains not only a broken non working wagon, but also a secret place found directly from the subway tracks: a dark, abandoned area roaming with slimers. Both of these concepts can also be found in Metro Mayhem.
This shows that RT wasn't a stranger to taking older concepts from his pre Sunstorm era in order to re-purpose them for the add-ons.

Beta One screenshots:





Broken wagon (but bad screenshot):



BTW - if anyone knows of any more maps made by WBB, I'm still interested.

[NNC]

Sometimes it's just the vibes. Every single map has a something that we call atmosphere. And the style and the author often can be seen behind the map even if you don't go deep into details. For example, to me, XXX Stacy always cried fucking loudly that it was made by Levelord, like 99% of the map. I always had a weird feeling that the map was a Shrapnel City reject, even as a kid, when I knew shit about Build engine, and never thought about Keith Schuler as somebody who did relevant job with it. I actually want to write about this later, but not ITT.

In the case of Full House, it gave me more Travis vibes in Caribbean, than any other maps of his in the pack. Travis had a very unique, but somewhat flawed style (which I called romanesque, because of the simple but massive, functional buildings, which as a flaw, can't come alive as much as a map should in Duke) before he started working on these Sunstorm addons. Anslem, Aztec, Betatwo, and to a lesser extent, Betaone all had a Travis vibe. This vibe was carried on with his DC maps, Smithsonian was the greatest homage to his own previous works, the map was like an ultra polished Anslem/Betaone mix. But the first four maps were all like this, and the last as well, Capitol and Metro tried a few new things, but still were Travis, only Dread October felt something I wouldn't really expect from Travis due to many things, but mostly the cramped indoors in the sub.

In the case of Caribbean, Full House was like Anslem, Smithsonian etc., the oldest, most notable Travis styled map, except much more polished. The rest however were something else. While minor things were kept, Caribbean Catastrophe, the godawful Mr. Splashy's (I always skip this one when I play Caribbean) and especially Lost Lagoon all showed something new from him. Since this caribbean style was totally different to his old romanesque style, he had to expand his boundaries, and a map like Lost Lagoon can be a result. Also Monatery of Wanton Destruction showed Travis's own improvements during this time (I'm not really familiar with Cryptic Passage though, I can't say anything about that).

[NNC]

Btw. does anyone have a contact to Travis? He is even more obscure than Blum.

[MetHy]

Vibes are nice and indeed your vibes were very helpful here, but I like evidence better.

One of my biggest oldest "vibe" regarding RT's Sunstorm level is that Metro Mayhem was also an usermap he started before the Sunstorm era and that he dug up and finished for Duke It Out In DC, it would be a VERY early map of his perhaps even before Anslem, but I have no real evidence to back this up other than the following:
- the subway theme was a very common usermap theme in 1996
- the subway theme isn't really a "DC" theme per se
- the map doesn't use any new custom texture outside of signs and posters
- the way the progression of the map is more senseless than ever, the backtracking, the crack you have to find and blow up in order to progress
- a friend also pointed out to me that in his opinion the texturing, texture choices, repeat and alignement, are more refined in Metro Mayhem than in the first maps of the EP. This goes with the idea of RT paying more attention to the finer details before the Sunstorm era.

None of this is real proof however and I could be completely wrong.

 The Watchtower, on 14 November 2020 - 01:02 PM, said:

In the case of Caribbean, Full House was like Anslem, Smithsonian etc., the oldest, most notable Travis styled map, except much more polished.

Yes, I believe this is true, and kudos to you for pointing that out and pointing me on this track.

Quote

The rest however were something else. While minor things were kept, Caribbean Catastrophe, the godawful Mr. Splashy's (I always skip this one when I play Caribbean) and especially Lost Lagoon all showed something new from him. Since this caribbean style was totally different to his old romanesque style, he had to expand his boundaries, and a map like Lost Lagoon can be a result. Also Monatery of Wanton Destruction showed Travis's own improvements during this time (I'm not really familiar with Cryptic Passage though, I can't say anything about that).

Yes, this is also why I dismissed A Full House to be RT's from the start and would have never thought of it on my own, since it's so different from his later style which is what I associate RT with the most. But the idea that the map would have been started before, more precisely during the Anslem/Aztec period, makes a lot of sense now.
As for his work on CP, he also took more risk and stepped out of his comfort zone, just like in Caribbean. You should check it out again.

As for his improvements during this time period, it is indeed astonishing. In just one year and a half he was incredibly prolific, and his learning cuve was ASTONISHING; and since he made so many maps we are all witness of that and there is really no comparison with any other mapper in that regard.

BTW I love Mr Splashy.

[NNC]

 MetHy, on 14 November 2020 - 01:57 PM, said:

Vibes are nice and indeed your vibes were very helpful here, but I like evidence better.

One of my biggest oldest "vibe" regarding RT's Sunstorm level is that Metro Mayhem was also an usermap he started before the Sunstorm era and that he dug up and finished for Duke It Out In DC, it would be a VERY early map of his perhaps even before Anslem, but I have no real evidence to back this up other than the following:
- the subway theme was a very common usermap theme in 1996
- the subway theme isn't really a "DC" theme per se
- the map doesn't use any new custom texture outside of signs and posters
- the way the progression of the map is more senseless than ever, the backtracking, the crack you have to find and blow up in order to progress
- a friend also pointed out to me that in his opinion the texturing, texture choices, repeat and alignement, are more refined in Metro Mayhem than in the first maps of the EP. This goes with the idea of RT paying more attention to the finer details before the Sunstorm era.

None of this is real proof however and I could be completely wrong.



Yes, I believe this is true, and kudos to you for pointing that out and pointing me on this track.



Yes, this is also why I dismissed A Full House to be RT's from the start and would have never thought of it on my own, since it's so different from his later style which is what I associate RT with the most. But the idea that the map would have been started before, more precisely during the Anslem/Aztec period, makes a lot of sense now.
As for his work on CP, he also took more risk and stepped out of his comfort zone, just like in Caribbean. You should check it out again.

As for his improvements during this time period, it is indeed astonishing. In just one year and a half he was incredibly prolific, and his learning cuve was ASTONISHING; and since he made so many maps we are all witness of that and there is really no comparison with any other mapper in that regard.

BTW I love Mr Splashy.

And what's your opinion on Wieder's Alien Remains? IMHO that map looks like something even George Broussard would take without much modifications barring the final area with the coloured stuff. I'm not surprised Wieder was taken to the DNF team. His style is pretty close to the classic style how 3DRealms imagined the game. Travis is a different beast, as I said earlier, he was more like the Casalis: made a legit spinoff.

[MetHy]

Yeah Alien Remains is more reminiscent of Duke's 3 first episodes than Duke's own ep4 is, even if you count the older maps used in ep4.

It looks a lot like Blum and Levelord and the only thing that would perhaps have been different had it been made by them is some of the layout and progression elements.
For instance the "2 keycards required" for progression is Wieder's sig, like in The Wavemistress.

[Jimmy]

 MetHy, on 14 November 2020 - 08:22 AM, said:

As for having not one by TWO level designers listed in the credits with NO work to show for?

Just an assumption here with nothing to back it up, but it could have been a favor to some friends, even if they didn't work on it, it was something good to put on the resume. Considering what we know about the game industry, I wouldn't put it past someone to do this. I'm sure it happens a lot.

 MetHy, on 14 November 2020 - 08:22 AM, said:

My theory is that as soon as he turned pro, RT didn't detail his levels as much because the point was to get maps done asap. He did have an INCREDIBLY prolific period at Sunstorm between 1996 and 1997, building I don't know how many levels, on top of being Lead on some of the projects, so I think it makes sense.
....
Again, efficiency with his work ethics during the Sunstorm era, going straight to the point and not caring about the little details so much (unless he had time). Not only I think this shows those lights are his, even the early one, but this helps explaining why he dropped some of the above design cues during the Sunstorm era, as he'd only bother with the finer details if he had time.

I think the "rough sketch" nature of the Xtreme levels back this theory up. A lot of them are quite good concepts, but obviously rushed and unfinished. Some even feel like they might be rejected DC concepts, Dim Park feels much like Dread October to me for reasons I can't really explain. Maybe those street lamps. It's actually a shame because while I've written them off for many years, some are cool. Others like the Convention, Toys, or Helicopter feel like early, unreleased usermaps that got finished up quickly and thrown in. They have very distinct 1996/1997 usermap vibes that I can't explain but veterans should understand. Just odd design cues that never caught on past those first few years. But in a few you really get the sense that the bones are all there and there just wasn't the time to add flesh.

 MetHy, on 14 November 2020 - 01:57 PM, said:

- the subway theme isn't really a "DC" theme per se

A subway might be kind of dull and overdone, all your other points could be right but actually adding a Metro level is pretty clever (especially if he already had a half finished map laying around.) Because it's a type of level Duke is really well suited toward (and Rabid Transit is a good map but has many flaws begging to be bested. Metro Mayhem doesn't best it, but gives it a good run for it's money. Not sure if any map has bested it yet.) While it doesn't present a grand monument or something you might think about in DC, it fits the theme nicely because most people don't drive in DC. Traffic is a nightmare and there's nowhere to park. Most tourists pay to park in a deck and walk/use the metro for the rest of the day. Again, kind of boring but does actually fit. One thing that makes DC and Caribbean so fun is in many ways they feel like a vacation, you hit the spots you would actually hit if you took a vacation. Nuclear Winter falls a little flat in this "grandness." Route66, Wanton Destruction, and Cryptic Passage actually do this pretty well too, but not as much. My guess is somebody or multiple people who worked on the game had gone to DC before, it would be a memorable part of the trip because you'd be going in and out of it a lot.

[MetHy]

 Jimmy, on 15 November 2020 - 02:35 AM, said:

Just an assumption here with nothing to back it up, but it could have been a favor to some friends, even if they didn't work on it, it was something good to put on the resume. Considering what we know about the game industry, I wouldn't put it past someone to do this. I'm sure it happens a lot.

Actually, I'm onto something here, I think there are elements from both SCS and WBB in Caribbean and we just don't know it (yet). Between Wieder's words and Shawn's words, I have a very strong theory about something, but this time I'll wait further proof to make more allegations.
Finding out what WBB did however is pretty much impossible at the moment however.

Quote

A subway might be kind of dull and overdone, all your other points could be right but actually adding a Metro level is pretty clever (especially if he already had a half finished map laying around.) Because it's a type of level Duke is really well suited toward (and Rabid Transit is a good map but has many flaws begging to be bested. Metro Mayhem doesn't best it, but gives it a good run for it's money. Not sure if any map has bested it yet.) While it doesn't present a grand monument or something you might think about in DC, it fits the theme nicely because most people don't drive in DC. Traffic is a nightmare and there's nowhere to park. Most tourists pay to park in a deck and walk/use the metro for the rest of the day. Again, kind of boring but does actually fit. One thing that makes DC and Caribbean so fun is in many ways they feel like a vacation, you hit the spots you would actually hit if you took a vacation. Nuclear Winter falls a little flat in this "grandness." Route66, Wanton Destruction, and Cryptic Passage actually do this pretty well too, but not as much. My guess is somebody or multiple people who worked on the game had gone to DC before, it would be a memorable part of the trip because you'd be going in and out of it a lot.

That's an excellent point, I've only taken the subway a few times myself when going to Paris, so I don't reall think about these things.

[NNC]

It's kinda amazing how Metro Mayhem lacked any new art besides the various (and mostly not necessary) banners. The map actually looks like one with new assets like the rest of the episode, it's the white domination that might be misleading. Duke DC is a very white episode. In comparison, Caribbean has lots of brown and grey. The original maps (particularly episode 1 and 2) are also dark grey with lots of green and then a little exposure of brown in episode 3. Episode 4 is rather funky, with Derelict being classic in its colours.

[MetHy]

I think I finally have an explanation for this quote by Wieder from 3 years ago ITT:

 InnervateInna, on 18 July 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Is never a bother.



My memory says that map was Shawn Swift's, with some minor adjustments by myself, and Robert Travis doing a lighting/texturing improvement pass similar to but not as extensive as he did to Market Melee (MM changed the style away from a low tech wooden/dirt island style to more modern buildings/concrete tourist area). However my memory of what exactly happened with Full House could be faulty.

When checking the credits to make sure I wasn't crazy about Shawn being part of the project I was reminded of Bill Buchalter. I can't for the life of me remember what his involvement was.

Here are a few more Q&A between me and Shawn Swift (a few more on top of the ones about Gothic Library and Brown Water posted inthe other thread), I have his permission to share it:

Quote

C: You've previously stated that you stopped working with Sunstorm before Caribbean Life. Do you know why you're credited for it?

SCS: I left Sunstorm shortly after work on Life's a Beach began. So I'd probably provided them with some ideas, though I can't recall any I might have been responsible for. I'd also begun work on a map which if I recall correctly, was to feature some kind of caribbean jail or fort. I don't know if that ever made it into the final game as I never played it, but I didn't get very far on that map. I think I'd only made one cell at that point.

Quote

C: Do you still have that map? Did it look anything like the jail cell at the start of Market Melee (2nd map in Caribbean, made by Wieder and finished by Travis), see the joined pics

SCS: No, the maps I shared with you were all I have, part of my old resume. As for whether Charlie's map is based on the one I created, I remember very little about the map, though the hole in the cell looks vaguely familiar, so it's possible I built that small portion of the map.

Screenshots of the jail cell at the start of Market Melee that I shared, with this comment:

Quote

About that cell, it may help kick start your memory: the sectors are all early sector numbers, including the bed, the lockers, the crates, and that small outdoor area that cast light.
The sectnums of the blown-up walls are also early sectnums.

However the sprites (toilet, poster, light) are late sprite numbers, so they would have been added later on.

Then, I joined a few more screenshots, which I will also post here so everyone can understand where I'm getting at:

Quote

C: Joined are a few more screenshots of MM which, based on sector numbers searching for early sector numbers, but also based on style (your style, and what one would expect from a prison/fort). I believe could be yours also. This being said Wieder could have continued on building that fort before the whole thing turned into a Market, and it's very hard to guesstimate a cut-off point where your sector numbers would stop and where Wieder's would start.
That last picture for instance is a hotel reception, but it looks more like a guard's room to me. Please tell me if any of this rings a bell

SCS: None of that looks familiar to me. I really don't think I did any work on the map aside from starting on the jail cell.

Conclusion:
- Wieder mentionned that he worked on a map started by Shawn
- he believes that map to be A Full House, but also mentionned Market Melee which Robert Travis worked on after he did

- Shawn says he worked on a fort/prison map
- He says the jailcell, which are the first sectors of that map according to sectnums, are reminiscent; but not anything else I showed which have early sectnums and which could have been made by him or could have been built for a fort/prison

And finally, he also says this about A Full House, although he said stated he's never played Caribbean Life so he probably hasn't seen the map:

Quote

C: Do you know anything about A Full House, the secret level of Caribbean Life? I believe (though I could be wrong) that it was made by Robert Travis, but that he used an old (pre-Sunstorm era) map of his that he repurposed and finished for Caribbean. Perhaps you might have seen the original version of the unfinished map, before its repurpose?

SCS: I have no idea, though if I had to guess, a casino seems like the sort of thing Robert would like to do. I never saw any of Robert's pre-Sunstorm maps, so I have no idea if it would have been re-purposed, but aside from my re-use of that truck, I don;t know of any re-pourposing of old maps which took place.

Frankly I realize now that my question is biaised and the first thing I should have asked is if he worked on the map, without mentionning my personal guesses; but since he already stated that he didn't build anything other than the fort/prison I can probably be pardonned.

With all this considered, I believe that when Wieder says he worked on a map started by Shawn, that map is actually Market Melee, not A Full House.
Then, at some point the theme of the map got changed from a map which included a fort/prison (which Wieder refers to as "a low tech wooden/dirt island") to the market. Wieder may have continued working on the fort/prison (that 2nd batch of screenshot I shared) before the theme swap.

I hope this can help Wieder to remember more and that he'll be able to confirm, or on the contrary deny, some of that!

P.S: Again, big thanks to Shawn for his time and answers! I do have more interesting Q&A with him that I do intend to share but when I get the time to do it properly, just bare with me.

P.P.S: among other things I have confirmation by Shawn that Library from Xtreme, which I believe to be RT's, isn't Shawn's. But he also says many mappers were involved for Xtreme, mappers they never even met.
Also, I'll spare you the long explanation for now, but I've had a look at uncredited maps from Route 66, and I am highly confident in saying that Mystery Dino Cave (coffin.map) is pure 100% Robert Travis working within his comfort zone. Like, I'm more confident about this one than I am about Library, it's so obvious it's not even funny; and just like A Full House the map has no sig. I'd love to get a second (or third, as many as I can get) opinion however on both Library and Mystery Dino Cave.

[NNC]

You should try to find Keith Schuler and ask about his contributions in SW. I would love to know for example what parts did he make for Dark Woods or Floating Fortress.

And on topic, Travis really disappeared from the internet? I hope he is okay.

[PokeThePower]

It looks like Bill works for AAW Games... you might be able to get a hold of him somehow along those threads to see if he has any memory for sure of what he did.
https://rpggeek.com/.../pleasing-queen

MM was built from scratch and I am confident it didn't pull anything from whichever fort SS started to build. The moment of the bus crashing into the cell to free you was the seed "reason" for the map. The area outside the cell becoming a market evolved out of "so where would a bus be coming from then?" Based on your interaction with Shawn I'm guessing I never even saw the fort, it possibly was just been between he and Robert before being abandoned.

Robert's influence on MM can most heavily be seen in modernizing much of the look for the various markets... my original approach was far more wood and stone and dirt floors. He converted a good amount of the interiors and the exteriors of the two main streets to be closer to convenience store markets (which having now visited the Caribbean was more appropriate) and he added the entire second floor of the building to your left as you come out of the jail cell. He also added much better vistas and details for the areas you can't go but can see into around the edges of the map.

The hotel was mostly unchanged other than Robert increasing the lighting contrast (something he did across most of the map, similar to the pass he did for Top Secret in DC). The changes were also minimal to spaces such as the concert area, the final area with the Kobayashi, the secret area with the docks, etc. The various ceiling detail work, sloped roofs, all the box stacking/rotating/overhangs were part of my original focus for the look and feel I was going for. RT actually flattened out some details in the course of making some of the spaces more mundane convenience stores (beating a dead horse but again... it was the right call... some of my original detail was detail just for the sake of detail).

Based on everything you managed to put together thus far here is what is looking pretty clear to me.

• I'm even more convinced Full House was originally a BB map and Robert did a heavy iteration with only minor technical tweaks by me.
  
• Nothing Shawn worked on for Carib wound up being used, but he was still given credit for the time he did spend.
  
• My original guess of SS for FH was because until I had looked that day and was reminded of him... I had forgotten about BB entirely. SS was my brain's default assumption because I had just worked with him on so much other stuff while RT was always the main contact for BB's work.
  
• If BB *didn't* start Full House then his credit makes even less sense as all the other maps have much clearer ownership histories.
  
• Robert was nice but would not have tolerated a map he designed being a secret level. He was appropriately egotistical about making sure his work was showcased.

 The Watchtower, on 16 November 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

And on topic, Travis really disappeared from the internet? I hope he is okay.

I used to be able to dig him up every year or two to say hello but haven't found him in a long time. You can still find a defunct link to his old GooglePlus page via Radaris which has one entry in archive.org. That GooglePlus page was how I had gotten a hold of him the last time we spoke but haven't come across anything reliable since... and since I don't have Facebook or any other social media can't really try to find him via those avenues.

 The Watchtower, on 14 November 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

I'm not surprised Wieder was taken to the DNF team. His style is pretty close to the classic style how 3DRealms imagined the game.

Almost entirely due to Airplane from WD, SiN, and George's desire to steal someone from Ritual haha. I don't think they remembered any Carib levels much less that I had worked on it by the time I arrived at 3DR. However Keith and Cole remembered the Airplane and it came up specifically when they were asked by George if I should be considered for hire.

 The Watchtower, on 14 November 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

Travis is a different beast, as I said earlier, he was more like the Casalis: made a legit spinoff.

Yup, he managed to carve out his own style genre. It was a relief to see him do such great work from a completely different foundation in Manhattan Project though. We had talked while I was still there and he was mildly stressed he wouldn't transition to other style games/engines beyond Build and dreaded knowing he'd eventually have to switch to Quake or similar mapping. When I was working on my applications to 3DR and Ritual while still at Sunstorm I'd talk to him about what I was learning and he hated almost everything I described about working in those engines heh.

[MetHy]

 InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 12:07 AM, said:

It looks like Bill works for AAW Games... you might be able to get a hold of him somehow along those threads to see if he has any memory for sure of what he did.
https://rpggeek.com/.../pleasing-queen

Thank you, I'll give it a shot!

Quote

MM was built from scratch and I am confident it didn't pull anything from whichever fort SS started to build. The moment of the bus crashing into the cell to free you was the seed "reason" for the map. The area outside the cell becoming a market evolved out of "so where would a bus be coming from then?" Based on your interaction with Shawn I'm guessing I never even saw the fort, it would have just been between he and Robert before being abandoned.

Well, are you absolutely positive you built the jailcell? Shawn is almost positive he built that cell despite not remembering anything else I showed him; and is also almost positive that's the only thing he had built; it sounds like the fort never made it out of idea stage except maybe a jail cell.
Maybe Robert and you were left with that jailcell, wondering what to do with it and the hole in its wall, thus being the kickstart for the map you mentionned?
The sector numbers do indicate the cell was the first thing built (all 30 or so first sectnums are that cell, the bed being sector0). If Shawn was going to be credited anyway, might as well use his jail cell right?

This being said, I could be reading too much into it; and a jail cell in Duke is a jail cell in Duke. What I mean by that is that as proven by all his Build maps, Shawn loved using grey walls, but I suppose everyone would build a jail cell with grey walls in Duke (using Death Row as a subconscious inspiration, for instance usermap Jailbird 2 from 1997).

As for the rest of the map, thinking some other areas could have belonged to a fort, I'm probably reading too much into it indeed. My main thought were centered on using bars for windows and on the hotel reception. "Who would use bars for windows of a small convenience store? But if it was a fort previously, it makes sense" I thought, however, it also makes sense to have used bars (versus glass) for the windows if the map used to be a low-tech area, and the smaller details like the windows could have remained as such during the theme swap.
The same thing could be said about the hotel reception and using porn for it. I thought the high number of TV screens and the fact there is porn everywhere could be from a guards room; but it's also a trope (in movies etc) that small motels have receptionnists who'd rather watch the TV on their desk than take care of the customers coming in; as for the porn, it could be there because it's literally one of the only thing mappers can put on a TV screen in Duke, but also at least one other thing suggest the place could be used as a love hotel.

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Robert's influence on MM can most heavily be seen in modernizing much of the look for the various markets... my original approach was far more wood and stone and dirt floors. He converted a good amount of the interiors and the exteriors of the two main streets to be closer to convenience store markets (which having now visited the Caribbean was more appropriate) and he added the entire second floor of the building to your left as you come out of the jail cell.

The hotel was mostly unchanged other than Robert increasing the lighting contrast (something he did across most of the map, similar to the pass he did for Top Secret in DC). The changes were also minimal to spaces such as the concert area, the final area with the Kobayashi, the secret area with the docks, etc. The various ceiling detail work, sloped roofs, all the box stacking/rotating/overhangs were part of my original focus for the look and feel I was going for. RT actually flattened out some details in the course of making some of the spaces more mundane convenience stores (beating a dead horse but again... it was the right call... some of my original detail was detail just for the sake of detail).

Interesting, do you remember who built this secret apartment in the 2nd street ? (which I had no idea existed until a couple of days ago so it's probably a spoilers to some other people also!)





The place looks so simple that it could be anyone's, right? But, I believe it to be RT's.

On that subject, do you know/remember anything about Library for Duke Xtreme, or any of the uncredited maps for Route 66? Without checking on the dates precisely, I think you weren't working with Sunstorm anymore during dev of Route 66, but you may have seen things nonetheless.

As for A Full House, I guess that my theory that it would be 100% RT is at least wrong in the sense that you're sure you've done some "minor technical tweaks" on it. I could indeed also be wrong about who started the map; the thing is, outside of his work on Cryptic Passage and Route 66, I couldn't find anything else by WBB so making a comparison is hard. Meanwhile, RT was so prolific one is more likely to find common points.

One of the things that I didn't mention in my analysis is how I always thought it was odd that the fish tanks don't use PAL 1: the blue palette which would make it look like "underwater area", even when looking at it from overwater, through the glass. RT used the blue palette for all his fish tanks, from day one (Beta One); so at first before I changed my mind I thought it could a clue that they are indeed WBB's; but frankly it doesn't mean anything, maybe RT did build them and he simply forgot about the blue palette, maybe the lack of it can be attributed to a (relative) lack of polish for the smaller details in the map.

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I used to be able to dig him up every year or two to say hello but haven't found him in a long time. You can still find a defunct link to his old GooglePlus page via Radaris which has one entry in archive.org. That GooglePlus page was how I had gotten a hold of him the last time we spoke but haven't come across anything reliable since... and since I don't have Facebook or any other social media can't really try to find him via those avenues.

I've tried to find him but with no success. I don't intend to push it any further personally, because when I see that someone isn't a public person, I take as a sign that they probably don't want to be found and be bothered by strangers, which is perfectly understandable, and I think I should respect that. Unlike you, it's not like I know the guy.

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Almost entirely due to Airplane from WD, SiN, and George's desire to steal someone from Ritual haha. I don't think they remembered any Carib levels much less that I had worked on it by the time I arrived at 3DR. However Keith and Cole remembered the Airplane and it came up specifically when they were asked by George if I should be considered for hire.

The Airplane level is indeed worth being remembered and noted by Keith and Cole... but in the name of god why didn't you make the curtains seperating each area semi-transparent

[Phredreeke]

 InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 12:07 AM, said:

• Robert was nice but would not have tolerated a map he designed being a secret level. He was appropriately egotistical about making sure his work was showcased.

What about Cryptic Passage? RT did the secret level in that.

[PokeThePower]

 Phredreeke, on 17 November 2020 - 07:39 AM, said:

What about Cryptic Passage? RT did the secret level in that.

I was hoping someone would mention that... I left the bait dangling pretty flagrantly. You can consider Cryptic Passage a "Robert Travis Game" from beginning to end. So look at the way all the levels are connected as another level design layer and more importantly compare the ease of access to Boggy Creek vs Full House. Both require a drop down you can't return from (afaik, there might be a secret return path I'm not aware of)... but in Cryptic Passage it's damn near the more natural move to follow the path down the fireplace to the secret level (thinking you're just finding a normal secret) vs MM to FH which is possibly the most convoluted and obscured secret level access paths in anything Sunstorm did.

[MetHy]

That's true, the main issue with the secret exit in MM isn't even that it's a secret within a secret, it's that it's not even tagged as a secret place. It took me forever to find it (I'd use DNSCOTTY to play A Full House every time though), and I only did after 15 years of replaying the episode, because a Pigcop was eventually dumb enough to fall through the fake floor.

I thought the secret exit in CP was also hard to find though, I only found it after several playthroughs; but yeah at least it's tagged so you know there is still something to look out for.

Gotta love how in both cases as you said you can't back up, no choice but to play the level now! Even if that means skipping 90% of MM (the alt exit is near the start) !



Edit: btw I hope you're not pissed at me if it sounded like I was trying to refute you built some of the things you built, I didn't mean it like that but now I see that it could be interpretated the wrong way. As I've said I've been in a similar situation with several mappers involved in working on the same levels and I know that in those scenarios sometimes it's not easy to remember precisely who built what. Hell, a few weeks ago someone asked something about that regarding IF in another thread and everyone, myself included, had forgotten that I did a bit of work on the secret level; and it's been far less than 25 years ago.