[NightFright]

The step they took was exactly the opposite direction they took in Ep.7, and it was an important one.
Nobody should have expected Luke to one-hit the First Order, as stupid as these guys are in general. They needed to make him important without letting him overshadow Rey, Finn and the other new characters. IMHO they managed that.

I also don't like the way they ended the movie, but I understand why it was done. Maybe it'll take a while to sink in, but eventually I am sure I am able to fully accept it. And others should, too.

Anyway, I am still more curious about the trilogy they wanna do after this one since that's when there is a chance to do something completely new, moving on, away from the Skywalker saga.

[Danukem]

Having now seen the film, I'm sorry to say that it was more bad than good. It did have its moments. The scenes involving force characters (Rey, Luke, Kylo) were for the most part quite good. It's too bad that most of the film was elsewhere. TLJ suffers from trying to do too much and not focusing on what is compelling. It also suffers from some awful plot holes (even worse than other SW films), and ridiculously implausible sequences of events (again, even more than the other films imo). I would be more specific about this but I don't feel like writing a long spoiler post. Perhaps worst of all, the film writes the series into a corner. It seems that there are no interesting character arcs left to explore, and nothing to look forward to but endless, pointless war without much reason for the audience to care about it.

There were precisely two interesting characters in TLJ: Luke and Kylo. Unfortunately, we don't get to see enough of them.

[MusicallyInspired]

Full of spoilers, but another great take on TLJ. It's an hour long, so watch on double speed or something if you have a short attention span.

[Danukem]

An hour long video review?!! I can honestly say I don't have time to watch that. However, the length and title of the video are suggestive of a person who is trying very hard to convince themselves of something they know in their heart to be untrue. I'm not a disappointed fanboy btw, and I actually liked Force Awakens despite its flaws. I'm not saying that TLJ was an awful movie, but for me it certainly had too many flaws to recommend it. I would give it 5/10.

Here is my list of live action SW movies from best to worst:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. A New Hope
4. Rogue One
5. The Last Jedi
6,7,8 The prequels (not sure on the order)

[Fantinaikos]

At least the prequels, enriched with the mini-series (and partially Rogue One even if filmed after Force Awakens) was new stories with new events and arguments, the questions that were there or in original trilogy were answered DURING the episodes for the most. All elements that can interest the viewer intriguing on how it would end until the next.

Some of the questions were not even asked probably, I don't think much SW fans asked to rationalize the Force, I guess they would preferred to keep it "magic" instead of explaining it with bacteria.

And young whining Anakin still more charismatic and bearable than Kylo.

[Danukem]

 Fantinaikos, on 19 December 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

And young whining Anakin still more charismatic and bearable than Kylo.

I have to disagree there. While Kylo is certainly not likeable, I find him to be interesting and not without charisma. The problem I have now is...

Spoiler

In TLJ Kylo had his opportunity to turn to the light and he declined. All indications are that he has resolved his inner conflict and he has embraced full evil and world domination. I'm pretty sure episode 9 will try to re-introduce some tension and probably have him flip-flop again at the end (like Vader) but for me his character arc is done and has ceased to be interesting. We can't even look forward to seeing him confront his mother because of CF's untimely death and Disney has confirmed they will not make new scenes with her using computer animation (thank goodness).

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, I shouldn't use the word "review". It's more of a dumping of his thoughts right after seeing the movie. Wasn't prepared or anything. He raises a lot of points I agree with, though, and is fair to people who disliked it. It's not bad. Watch it for fun anyway.

[Danukem]

I'm not ready to move on yet.

"after reading Rian Johnson’s script for The Last Jedi, Hamill said, “I at one point had to say to Rian, ‘I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision.’ ”

https://www.vanityfa...-star-wars-nerd

Let's review one of those choices for the character, shall we?

Spoiler

Luke Skywalker, the jedi who saw good in Vader when literally no one else in the universe could and actually managed to turn him, the jedi who started an academy to train and nurture young force users, actually considers murdering his nephew in his sleep and even goes as far as turning on his lightsaber to do the deed before changing his mind. All because Luke had sensed a darkness in his nephew which had been growing for some time and which Luke had certainly been aware of for quite a while. This is completely out of character for Luke. Also, it doesn't make sense that Luke, as a teacher and leader, would not have already separated Ben from his other students for their safety. There's no mention in the film of anything that had been done regarding Ben before it reached this point (counseling? private lessons?) so the audience is left to conclude that Luke was not only out of character, but completely incompetent.

[Fox]

(Do we need to use spoilers for every single post? If someone is reading this thread, they know what they are getting at.)

Luke tried to kill Vader. The same dude who cut off his father's arm out of rage had a passing thought of killing his nephew.

[MusicallyInspired]

He described it as an instinct for which he also said he rightly felt shame. Everyone's weak. Evryone's human. Even the Jedi Master "legend" Luke Skywalker. Can't you see this is the entire point of the film?

Everyone uses the Hamill quote, but he's not a storyteller. He's an actor. And he also came around in the end and thanked Rian for "quelling my fears" in a recent tweet.

[MusicallyInspired]

[Danukem]

 MusicallyInspired, on 21 December 2017 - 04:56 AM, said:

He described it as an instinct for which he also said he rightly felt shame. Everyone's weak. Evryone's human. Even the Jedi Master "legend" Luke Skywalker. Can't you see this is the entire point of the film?

Everyone uses the Hamill quote, but he's not a storyteller. He's an actor. And he also came around in the end and thanked Rian for "quelling my fears" in a recent tweet.

I don't have a problem with Luke's overall arc of becoming a bitter old cynic and then ultimately being brought back into the fold. On the whole, I think the character's arc was fine, but the one pivotal action in question is still very problematic. I do have a problem that in a movie which has enough time to bore the fuck out of me on a stupid casino planet, that it can't spend a few more minutes giving context to what happened between Luke and Ben/Kylo. It's not plausible that Luke would

Spoiler

almost murder his nephew in his sleep "on instict",

but even more importantly we are given no reason to believe that anything had been done about the growing problem up to this point, which is even worse (see my earlier post).

Yes, the movie has themes and points. Everyone is weak and human, that's true. Doesn't excuse questionable writing, bad storytelling choices and apparently terrible editing (for example we got to see almost nothing of Rey's training, despite this being the longest SW film). Another big theme in the movie is letting old things die, and this movie does a lot of that.

[MusicallyInspired]

You don't think that just maybe an unexpected plot turn might simply only be a little jarring and take a bit to get used to (after decades of seeing Luke in a certain light) rather than straight up being questionable writing? And we saw every one of the "three lessons" Luke taught Rey. He wasn't "training" her.


By the way, I'm just sharing the justifications that I ended up at with these plot points. I'm not necessarily trying to convince you one way or the other, and I wouldn't mind or blame you if you held your ground on your opinion. This movie is jarring and I needed two viewings to take it all in properly. The big thing about it for me was I already decided before watching it that if it didn't just copy ESB and did something different I'd at least give it a benefit of a doubt. I also wasn't on board with all the Snoke and Rey theories and wanted them to be nobodies. But anyway, I'm not trying to tell you your opinion is "wrong." This is the first time I can see both sides of the argument on a Star Wars film because I was on the fence initially. And that's not coming from a place of giving it a free pass just because I want to like it.

[Danukem]

LIke I said, the movie does have its strong points but it has many flaws, and overall I would give it a 5 out of 10. The Luke / Kylo incident is very problematic for reasons I have already said, and yes I maintain that it is out of character (I explained and defended this already in sufficient detail). But there are many, many flaws in this film which have nothing to do with that. To be fair, every SW film, with the arguable exception of ESB has had some pretty serious flaws. For me, the flaws in this film were enough to bring it down and make it the worst SW film since the prequels.

The reason this is so dispiriting is that TFA, despite its shortcomings, seemed like a good restart to build on, but instead the series has taken a step backwards. LIke many people my age, I revered the original trilogy but then gave up on SW after Phantom Menace. TFA rekindled hope for many of us, but this latest film does a lot ot dash that hope. Let the old things die indeed.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yep. This is indeed a make or break film for everybody. And it seems to split the fandom straight down the middle in a strong way. This is definitely different from the OT, but I don't see it the same way as the PT (except for Casino Planet I guess). This is a third kind and I just think (so far) it's better and more exciting than the PT.

[MusicallyInspired]

This is the best Twitter thread ever.

[NightFright]

Basically most people are (again) like: Everything except for Ep.4-6 sucks (except for Rogue One because it works with the old movies without changing anything about characters that existed before/after). Why do they even bother watching any new Star Wars movies still?

Maybe Disney should only do spinoff movies in the future. I accept that people think Disney didn't continue the Skywalker saga the way they wanted. But then these guys should also accept if I believe that fans got too much carried away with the Timothy Zahn novels. Did they expect Disney to follow those stories, simply visualizing what had already been told? I am glad they didn't, or else I wouldn't be sitting at the edge of my seat, eager to see what's gonna happen. Admittedly, when watching those movies more than once, the effect will be different.

[Forge]

I thought it was a jedi tradition to turn into a cynical hermit after one gets old - ala Yoda & Obi Wan.

I've only read reviews & watched some trailers, so story lines are still a bit out of my reach for comment, but I do find the "new" jedi powers to be stupid. Mind links (beyond immediate local influence, e.g. these are not the droids you're looking for), projecting half-way across the galaxy, & space walking, to name a few.

If those were always "things" then maybe old obi wan is still alive - he just projected himself onto the death star & that's what vader "killed". And his "ghost" is just him projecting himself. He's actually been sitting at a bar getting lit the whole time.

Jedi apparently don't need spaceships either when they do decide to physically move - they can levitate their ass off a planet and travel through space.

[Fox]

This twitter lol



"No, this isn’t a screenshot from a 1998 PC game that came in a cereal box. This shit was what I had to sit through. You get beautiful, imaginative fight sequences on salt sprinkled red planets. I got space diner. Go fuck yourself."

[NightFright]

If you get enraged about such scenes, then the prequel trilogy is going to get you institutionalized. It's full of such stuff, e.g. that guy in the bar trying to sell "Death Sticks" or something to Obi Wan. I think the Twitter guy also refers to that.

It's amazing how TLJ makes all the Star Wars haters come forward. Almost looks like they just buy the movie ticket to find flaws and get enraged about them. Guess the times when you were just sitting in a movie theater and enjoyed the show belong to the past.

[Forge]

 NightFright, on 22 December 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

If you get enraged about such scenes, then the prequel trilogy is going to get you institutionalized. It's full of such stuff, e.g. that guy in the bar trying to sell "Death Sticks" or something to Obi Wan. I think the Twitter guy also refers to that.

It's amazing how TLJ makes all the Star Wars haters come forward. Almost looks like they just buy the movie ticket to find flaws and get enraged about them. Guess the times when you were just sitting in a movie theater and enjoyed the show belong to the past.

The A/C has to be turned up to it's max setting for the snowflakes; otherwise they get offended and melt.
"Mah victimhud complecks haz ben triggahd!"

[Fox]

 Forge, on 22 December 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

projecting half-way across the galaxy

The movies never implied that there's a range which the Force can be used.

Rather the opposite, Force users can instantly sense the death of someone through light-years of distance.

A more obvious example:

[Forge]

Yeah. Don't mind the plot holes these fluid abilities create with their morphing ranges and capabilities.
If these powers are so great, how come Leah can space-walk, but pussy Ani, who allegedly had way more training, caught on fire and burned up like he was made of dry twigs. Seems like a pretty fatal flaw for a mentally controlled enviro suit.

[Danukem]

 NightFright, on 22 December 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

Basically most people are (again) like: Everything except for Ep.4-6 sucks (except for Rogue One because it works with the old movies without changing anything about characters that existed before/after). Why do they even bother watching any new Star Wars movies still?

I'm not sure if I'm being included in that "haters" group. I gave the film a 5 out of 10, and I'm pretty hard on films in general. I applied exactly the same standards to this film as I would apply to any other film.

I think the reason for a lot of frustration from fans is that it is reasonable to expect the franchise to improve and for the creators to learn from past mistakes. They have unlimited resources to get the best and brightest talent to write and direct these films. When we are presented with garbage like the casino planet, naturally we get upset.

[MusicallyInspired]

Come on. Kids love it. At the end of the day this is a kid's movie. Or at LEAST a family movie.

Forge, you're being pedantic about a movie with space wizards. Dial it back a bit. Thinking things through is for Star Trek where it belongs.

[Forge]

They're not "wizards", their cells are infected with a heavy dose of space-herpes. It's "scientific".

[MusicallyInspired]

George renounced that....sort of. In response to the backlash about it he said "maybe Qui-Gon was wrong."

[Forge]

Kinda like how Mark Hamill renounced the direction the Luke Skywalker character went in this latest movie?

[Fox]

 Forge, on 22 December 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

Yeah. Don't mind the plot holes these fluid abilities create with their morphing ranges and capabilities.
If these powers are so great, how come Leah can space-walk, but pussy Ani, who allegedly had way more training, caught on fire and burned up like he was made of dry twigs. Seems like a pretty fatal flaw for a mentally controlled enviro suit.

Anakin is not Leia, they don't necessarily have the same abilities. Besides there's a difference between telekinetically levitate yourself and setting off fire from your body.

[MusicallyInspired]

 Forge, on 22 December 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

Kinda like how Mark Hamill renounced the direction the Luke Skywalker character went in this latest movie?

But then he renounced his renouncement by saying "I was wrong."