[Micky C]

MusicallyInspired, on 28 December 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

It was very effective at capitalizing on the Resistance's constant failures which eventually drew their numbers down to a mere handful. I dislike HOW they portrayed it (the stuff in the middle), but it wasn't unnecessary. It was very necessary.

The only reason Finn's plan with the tracker failed was that the evil BB-8 happened to spot them. It came off as little more than a spot of bad luck as opposed to any kind of shear superiority of the First Order. Also, having the BB-8 droid be the one to spot them felt a bit odd.

Not to mention those bombers at the start are a terrible ship. You've got all kind of futuristic ranged weapons available, and yet you choose the ones that have to drive right up to the enemy ship? Add to the fact the bombs seem to operate by gravity which would render them ineffective in most space-battles.

Also with Holdo, do they not have autopilot in the future?

[MusicallyInspired]

Merlijn, on 29 December 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

(Holdo could have easily been replaced by Leia or Ackbar, for example)

Everyone says this. But Holdo was meant to be a person the audience hated for looking down her nose at Poe. That would never have worked if it were Leia or Ackbar.

Micky C, on 29 December 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

The only reason Finn's plan with the tracker failed was that the evil BB-8 happened to spot them. It came off as little more than a spot of bad luck as opposed to any kind of shear superiority of the First Order. Also, having the BB-8 droid be the one to spot them felt a bit odd.

I was disappointed with the evil BB-9E. I guess, like Phasma, they needed to find something for him to do. The point was that subplot (and I guess we can agree to disagree on it) is that Poe/Finn's entire plan based the safety of the entire Resistance on a slim chance of succeeding....which they didn't. They were spotted by something as insignificant as a bad droid. And as a result the REAL escape plan was put in immense jeopardy with the escape pods being destroyed (discovered by DJ). If they hadn't done that they wouldn't be down to a handful of people by the end. It was the entire lesson Leia was trying to teach Poe throughout the whole movie. He takes too many hard risks simply because he's impatient and impulsive. He doesn't think before he acts. Canto Bight was a bit of a blight on the film, but it was still necessary to show all that journey was ultimately for nothing.

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Not to mention those bombers at the start are a terrible ship. You've got all kind of futuristic ranged weapons available, and yet you choose the ones that have to drive right up to the enemy ship? Add to the fact the bombs seem to operate by gravity which would render them ineffective in most space-battles.

Everyone says this as well. Why can't it be inertia? Of course there's no gravity.

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Also with Holdo, do they not have autopilot in the future?

This is the point where I simply start saying to myself "This isn't Star Trek, it's Star Wars. It's not about technology, it's about drama."

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

This is the point where I simply start saying to myself ....

[MusicallyInspired]

To be fair, I never said otherwise. I feel like most of it is justified for myself and what isn't is so small to me I don't care. This movie is over-hated mostly because of a knee-jerk reaction to hate anything different. That has to be knocked down a peg, which is why I speak up.

[Micky C]

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Everyone says this. But Holdo was meant to be a person the audience hated for looking down her nose at Poe. That would never have worked if it were Leia or Ackbar.

I was disappointed with the evil BB-9E. I guess, like Phasma, they needed to find something for him to do. The point was that subplot (and I guess we can agree to disagree on it) is that Poe/Finn's entire plan based the safety of the entire Resistance on a slim chance of succeeding....which they didn't. They were spotted by something as insignificant as a bad droid. And as a result the REAL escape plan was put in immense jeopardy with the escape pods being destroyed (discovered by DJ). If they hadn't done that they wouldn't be down to a handful of people by the end. It was the entire lesson Leia was trying to teach Poe throughout the whole movie. He takes too many hard risks simply because he's impatient and impulsive. He doesn't think before he acts. Canto Bight was a bit of a blight on the film, but it was still necessary to show all that journey was ultimately for nothing.

Why couldn't Holdo have simply told everyone the plan? They had no reason to believe there were spies on board, which is the only reason I can think of (and even then it would have been given away when they did the actual escape). Seems a bit artificial that it was withheld simply for the twist.

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Everyone says this as well. Why can't it be inertia? Of course there's no gravity.

They were above a planet so there would have been some gravity. Still, inertia implies there is some initial force. Those bombs traveled perpendicular to the ships' motion and seemed to accelerate as per a gravitational pull, hence useless in space battles away from a planet.

The main point I was making is that they could simply have been placed within missiles which would have made the attack much easier, and I also don't see the point of such a large number of relatively small explosives, particularly since they were dumped in a single go over a very small area.

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

This is the point where I simply start saying to myself "This isn't Star Trek, it's Star Wars. It's not about technology, it's about drama."

Autopilot isn't technobabble, it's a basic feature that would be more likely be on a spaceship than vehicles of today.

In both Holdo cases it seems they've completely ignored basic logic for the sake of drama, which serves to make it feel cheaper, dumber and lazier in terms of writing. In some ways it's not a big deal; as Star Wars continues to expand it will continue to evolve into mass-produced lowest-common denominator franchise were things like this don't matter.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

To be fair, I never said otherwise. I feel like most of it is justified for myself and what isn't is so small to me I don't care. This movie is over-hated mostly because of a knee-jerk reaction to hate anything different. That has to be knocked down a peg, which is why I speak up.

Fair enough. But I don't see anything that Merlijn said as being knee-jerk, or over-hateful.

People got upset that The Force Awakens was basically a rei-maging of the first two or three movies (episodes IV-VI respectively).
People go upset that this movie, The Last Jedi, didn't follow suite and it went its own direction.
(not going to get into the liberal socio-political creep of Hollyweird injected into everything nowadays.)

I didn't see Merlijn's comments falling in line with either of those perspectives.
From what I seen, he said too much focus on side quests and not enough focus on the main story was a distraction to the flow. I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like a fairly legitimate subjective observation free of outside influences and biases.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 29 December 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Autopilot isn't technobabble, it's a basic feature that would be more likely be on a spaceship than vehicles of today.

hyper-space travel would be over almost the instant it began without auto-pilot, course-plotting, and collision detection & avoidance systems.

[MusicallyInspired]

Micky C, on 29 December 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Why couldn't Holdo have simply told everyone the plan? They had no reason to believe there were spies on board, which is the only reason I can think of (and even then it would have been given away when they did the actual escape). Seems a bit artificial that it was withheld simply for the twist.

He was demoted. Very few higher ranking officers in any military body tend to share plans with the "grunts". And I'd almost agree at that certain point in the movie where Poe storms the bridge that she should have told him there, but she said something else that I think is the whole point when she was quoting Leia. "If you have to see the sun to know it's there you'll never make it through the night." 'Sun' being 'plan' I assumed in that case. I'll agree it still feels artificial, but still not the big problem everyone makes it out to be.

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They were above a planet so there would have been some gravity. Still, inertia implies there is some initial force. Those bombs traveled perpendicular to the ships' motion and seemed to accelerate as per a gravitational pull, hence useless in space battles away from a planet.

They started dropping inside the ship, within its own gravity. Once it left the protective shield (that's all I can describe it as since there was obviously air in that ship) the intertia from that fall carried through into space. For that matter, how do Tie Bombers work? Or Y-Wings? In ESB they were dropping bombs on asteroids searching for the hidden Falcon.

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The main point I was making is that they could simply have been placed within missiles which would have made the attack much easier, and I also don't see the point of such a large number of relatively small explosives, particularly since they were dumped in a single go over a very small area.

Did you see the size of that ship?

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Autopilot isn't technobabble, it's a basic feature that would be more likely be on a spaceship than vehicles of today.

You can have this one. I can't debate it. It does seem silly. But then, if nobody were on board we wouldn't have gotten that incredible hyperspace jump scene, so...I say it was worth it. Also, I'm sure it was at least worth it to see ol' purple haired admiral "Gender Studies" (as Sargon called her) die. She really did look stupid. Not alien in any way shape or form. Just a human with purple hair. Retarded.

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In both Holdo cases it seems they've completely ignored basic logic for the sake of drama, which serves to make it feel cheaper, dumber and lazier in terms of writing. In some ways it's not a big deal; as Star Wars continues to expand it will continue to evolve into mass-produced lowest-common denominator franchise were things like this don't matter.

I feel like the Marvel movies were made for the lowest common denominator. Maybe even possibly TFA to a degree. But not this one. Even if judging only by the incredibly divisive (more divisive than the prequels) public reaction so far. I think part of the problem was that Disney and LucasFilm were promising the moon with this film and it obviously doesn't measure up. But when I look back, it's just like any other Star Wars movie. It's got a good solid core that's easy to like with a fair share of flaws. Like any Star Wars movie does. I was never floored with ESB. When I first watched the OT it was my least favourite actually. Nowadays ANH is a little too boring, but for a first time viewing it's incredible. ESB has grown a little more on me since (above ANH) because it has a much better lightsaber duel and Vader is no longer merely a blunt instrument for the bad guys, but has reasons and motives all his own. The whole father thing was blown for me long before I saw the movies. Partly because I watched "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" before the actual trilogy as a kid, which was a dumb move. But I was a kid, what can you do?

Anyway, I obviously think the OT movies as a whole are better than the ST simply because they came first and are classics, but they're closer in comparison than most people will admit I think. Very close.

Forge, on 29 December 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

Fair enough. But I don't see anything that Merlijn said as being knee-jerk, or over-hateful.

People got upset that The Force Awakens was basically a rei-maging of the first two or three movies (episodes IV-VI respectively).
People go upset that this movie, The Last Jedi, didn't follow suite and it went its own direction.
(not going to get into the liberal socio-political creep of Hollyweird injected into everything nowadays.)

I didn't see Merlijn's comments falling in line with either of those perspectives.
From what I seen, he said too much focus on side quests and not enough focus on the main story was a distraction to the flow. I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like a fairly legitimate subjective observation free of outside influences and biases.

No, I didn't mean to imply anything he (or you, for that matter....possibly) has been saying was of the same knee-jerk ilk. Just feel like I need to speak up because the negative points (all the same ones he brought up) are all the haters talk about. I think a counter is warranted. I don't mean to tackle you or he when I tackle said negative points. And there is some validity to it. Just not as big a deal as the haters make it out to be. I think we're all aware of that, though. But being the internet where things are stated without context of emotion, it can still do to be said.

But sorry for coming across that way. I've been talking with a lot of other people who are really slamming the movie so I'm still running off a bit of inertia from those debates.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 29 December 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

But sorry for coming across that way.

too much white-knighting. You're putting yourself in a position of defending the indefensible.

[MusicallyInspired]

One thing's for sure, no matter how low TLJ ever gets, we have undeniable proof that it'll never hit the bottom.

[Merlijn]

If I had to give a grade to this movie, it would be a 7 out of 10 I think. So I don't hate it. Just think it could have been better, that's all.
The thing is, this movie got glowing reviews from critics. So that created a lot of hype. If it fails to live up to that hype, of course there's going to be a backlash.
If you look at rotten tomatoes, this movie got a higher score from critics than Blade Runner 2049. And as much as I like Star Wars, it's not that good.

Although I mentioned the internal problems with this movie in my previous posts, my biggest gripe is actually the lack of world building and logical progression within the saga.
The bigger picture, so to speak. It's something critics usually don't care for that much, but world building is an important element within the fantasy genre.

To make a simple comparison: LOTR was built on the vision of one author and the movies were all filmed at the same time by 1 director.
As a result the quality, tone, world building etc. is incredibly consistent. That's why they hold up so well. IMO the new star wars trilogy lacks that.

But perhaps I simply shouldn't hold these movies to such a high standard. We'll have to wait and see what JJ will do with the last film.

[Fox]

The new trilogy is way more consistent than the original, you just got used to it...

[----]

Micky C, on 29 December 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

Not to mention those bombers at the start are a terrible ship. You've got all kind of futuristic ranged weapons available, and yet you choose the ones that have to drive right up to the enemy ship? Add to the fact the bombs seem to operate by gravity which would render them ineffective in most space-battles.

Also with Holdo, do they not have autopilot in the future?

And this is where the movie really fails: Why even make the whole bomber attack when one simple ship with a hyperdrive easily brings down other ships of any size (and yes, they have autopilot as Han mentions as early as in "A New Hope").

No, the point that often is brought up (not directed at you, Micky C, but at the fanboys who praise this just because it is Star Wars) that Star Wars is unrealistic anyways, as world building is done by making the world have an inner logic and coherence.

[Forge]

A few hyper-drive torpedoes would be pretty much unstoppable and make short work of a fleet of starships.
A few space-walking jedi venting starship hulls with lightsabres would be a cheaper alternative. (since jedi don't need spacesuits, can deflect laser blasts, can shoot lightning out their butt, can control physical objects like any small fighter craft sent out against them - which they can then forcibly crash into the mother ship).

[MusicallyInspired]

They don't make a habit of using command ships as kamikaze hyperspace weapons because they only have a few (now zero) and the First Order spans the galaxy. Not exactly and efficient long-term strategy. This attack was out of a moment of desperation for survival.

Hyperdrive engines are much bigger than a torpedo.

I'm sure it takes a whole lot of concentration to keep yourself alive in a vacuum AND use telekinetic powers to move yourself from one place to another (never mind free mobility). Leia could only do it probably because she's as strong as Luke with the Force after years of training. It's probably not something just anyone can do AND use it as an efficient long-term attack strategy. Which is also probably why Luke could perform the never-before-seen Force projection stunt. He was just that strong with the Force after training and meditating most of his adult life. And in the end it completely drained him. Yeah, not so efficient. These were all last-minute attempts of desperation.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 30 December 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Hyperdrive engines are much bigger than a torpedo.

oh, white-knight......
a projectile a quarter to half the size of the millenium falcon would be a torpedo to a star destroyer - and a lot cheaper than trying to take it out in a "conventional" engagement with small fighters and battle ships.
(the aluminum falcon has hyperdrive - just remove the crews quarters, cargo holds, cockpit, weapons stations, etc - leave the engines and guidance systems)

Not going to argue the semantics of who can do what with however amount of jedi training - since the abilities and schooling in regards to space-herpes seems pretty fluid in the movies to fit whatever needs are required for the narrative at the time.

[Ronin]

They seemed to be glorifying suicide attacks, maybe I'm just paranoid, maybe not.

Chinese sister suicide attack on the destroyers at the start, purple haired suicide attack on the big ship using light speed or whatever, Finn attempting suicide attack on the on the salty/snowflake planets big gun, even Skywalkers suicide attack to delay the advance of the bad guys. There are probably more that I can't remember, considering how layered with propaganda the film is it's worth taking note of.

[Forge]

Ronin, on 30 December 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

They seemed to be glorifying suicide attacks, maybe I'm just paranoid, maybe not.

You think they're Japanese?

[Ronin]

Forge, on 30 December 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

You think they're Japanese?

Maybe one, a diverse bunch though nonetheless.

[Forge]

Ronin, on 30 December 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Maybe one, a diverse bunch though nonetheless.

Definitely not Japanese then. Kamikaze were honorable.

[Ronin]

Forge, on 30 December 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

Definitely not Japanese then. Kamikaze were honorable.

はい

[Danukem]

Merlijn, on 29 December 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think the whole casino part could have easily been cut out and you still could make the same points about desparate plans and failure.
Calling it "fluff" was a bit harsh maybe, but I do think the movie could have trimmed out some of the subplots and even some of the characters (Holdo could have easily been replaced by Leia or Ackbar, for example). By comparison, ESB has a pretty tight narrative. And even though the heroes also fail in that movie, they didn't feel incompetent (which is a very thin line),

Yes, for example the hacker character or equivalent could have been among the rebels from the start, which would have enabled them to cut out the entire casino planet trip and proceed straight to phase 2 of the plan (which would still have failed). This would have enabled time for a lot more cool stuff, fleshing out the character arcs and other storylines.

Also, can someone explain to me why the whole premise behind the chase of the rebel fleet isn't completely stupid? With all the ships at their disposal, the First Order could easily have send hundreds of ships ahead using short hyperspace jumps to block the escaping rebels. They knew exactly where the rebels were and their path, and had plenty of fuel and ships to spare.

[----]

Trooper Dan, on 30 December 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Also, can someone explain to me why the whole premise behind the chase of the rebel fleet isn't completely stupid? With all the ships at their disposal, the First Order could easily have send hundreds of ships ahead using short hyperspace jumps to block the escaping rebels. They knew exactly where the rebels were and their path, and had plenty of fuel and ships to spare.

Or they could send a few autopiloted drones/ships into them ... or does the whole "hypredriviven ships destroy normal ships" only work the rebels to new order way?

[MusicallyInspired]

Chalk it up to intimidation. Evil bad guys are always good at that. They were in no hurry.

[Hank]

Awesome movie. I like.

Trooper Dan, on 30 December 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Also, can someone explain to me why the whole premise behind the chase of the rebel fleet isn't completely stupid? With all the ships at their disposal, the First Order could easily have send hundreds of ships ahead using short hyperspace jumps to block the escaping rebels. They knew exactly where the rebels were and their path, and had plenty of fuel and ships to spare.

I'll try.
Because the Force clouded their judgment?

Remember the very first Star Wars movie. How come the Death Star was positioned in front of a huge planet, blocking the shot to the rebel base? Would it not have been smarter to adjust the approaching course to have a clear shot from the get go, say perpendicular to the moon's path, sort of on top?

There too, ignorance and arrogance of the bad guys were in full swing.

Also, it is not real. Like in cartoons, anything goes, for as long as it is entertaining.

[MusicallyInspired]

Hank, on 31 December 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Remember the very first Star Wars movie. How come the Death Star was positioned in front of a huge planet, blocking the shot to the rebel base? Would it not have been smarter to adjust the approaching course to have a clear shot from the get go, say perpendicular to the moon's path, sort of on top?

THANK you for reminding me of that! I remember arguments about that as well.

[Micky C]

MusicallyInspired, on 30 December 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

They don't make a habit of using command ships as kamikaze hyperspace weapons because they only have a few (now zero) and the First Order spans the galaxy. Not exactly and efficient long-term strategy. This attack was out of a moment of desperation for survival.

Hyperdrive engines are much bigger than a torpedo.

I'm sure it takes a whole lot of concentration to keep yourself alive in a vacuum AND use telekinetic powers to move yourself from one place to another (never mind free mobility). Leia could only do it probably because she's as strong as Luke with the Force after years of training. It's probably not something just anyone can do AND use it as an efficient long-term attack strategy. Which is also probably why Luke could perform the never-before-seen Force projection stunt. He was just that strong with the Force after training and meditating most of his adult life. And in the end it completely drained him. Yeah, not so efficient. These were all last-minute attempts of desperation.

In Leia's defense, we don't know how long she was out in space. We know people can survive a very short time in the vacuum, cold and radiation of space. Not to mention she was unconscious for a while afterwards, requiring futuristic medial treatment.

In terms of the hyperdrive attack, it should certainly have been an option from the start once the situation became apparent, and when taking into account the absolutely massive size and uniqueness of Snoke's ship. One cruiser for that is an excellent exchange.

I do think the concept of fuel use in space is an odd point though. Keep in mind there's nothing to resist movement, and so a single thrust will keep you at constant speed almost indefinitely; you wouldn't need fuel to maintain speed. If everyone was accelerating the whole time in the movie then that would make sense, but somehow I feel that wasn't the case.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 30 December 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

a projectile a quarter to half the size of the millenium falcon would be a torpedo to a star destroyer - and a lot cheaper than trying to take it out in a "conventional" engagement with small fighters and battle ships.
(the aluminum falcon has hyperdrive - just remove the crews quarters, cargo holds, cockpit, weapons stations, etc - leave the engines and guidance systems)

Even x-wings have hyperdrives (we see them and other fighters using hyperdrive in ROTJ) -- anyone can google this if they have bad memory.

So that means a hyperdrive can fit on a one man fighter, which also has space for conventional engines, a cockpit, guns, torpedos, etc. Strip away the unnecessary stuff and you could make a hyperdrive torpedo that is a lot smaller than a one-man fighter.

Of course, there could be some other techno-babble reason why you couldn't make an effective hyperdrive torpedo. That's why this particular point doesn't bother me too much. There are so many other issues that are more important. Like, why does Holdo wait until most of the rebel escape pods have been destroyed before using the hyperdrive attack? She knew she was going to die regardless and she let them die for nothing.

[Forge]

Trooper Dan, on 31 December 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Of course, there could be some other techno-babble reason why you couldn't make an effective hyperdrive torpedo.

Maybe it has to get up to 88 mph in conventional drive before it can go into hyperdrive - which makes it susceptible to being shot & blown up with laser cannons.

[MusicallyInspired]

There is the question of whether a one-man fighter launching through hyperspace would cause as much damage as a capital ship.

Why didn't she do it earlier? She didn't think of it. I doubt many people would have. It's not on the top of anyone's list of actions to accomplish.