[Zaxx]

Fox, on 08 March 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

I would say it's more about Doom texture set.

Haha, yes but to me the stuff Romero does with his levels is best when it's presented in an engine that is restricted to "pure level design." Doom has no jumping (for example if you'd just "port" Tech Gone Bad to Build jumping in itself breaks its flow) and even Quake is limited compared to what can be done on a great Build level. I'm sure he'd make wonderful levels if he designed maps specifically for Build but his existing work really wouldn't be anything special because it doesn't use the features that Build maps love to use for a reason.

[OpenMaw]

No. Romero demonstrated that he has true skill in every engine he ever worked with. Yes, even with Daikatana.

[Danukem]

I found the weapons to be pretty well balanced, with the exception of the bowling bombs, which were a bit OP. Balance is not typically a design goal in a retro shooter, though. Typically some weapons are simply supposed to be better than others. In a modern game with more emphasis on multiplayer, we want every weapon to have its niche, but no weapon to be very weak compared with others. Since I don't know what the devs are going for, I can't say whether they succeeded. I will say that the weapon I used the least was the SMG, but I'm not sure why.

I hope we get a sniper in the full release.

[MusicallyInspired]

The SMG was a bit annoying because it reloads so frequently. Not as good as you'd think for a mass gunfight with more than 3 enemies. Still, I like it.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 08 March 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

No. Romero demonstrated that he has true skill in every engine he ever worked with. Yes, even with Daikatana.

Did anyone say something different? I have huge respect for Romero, I think he is a genius... but different levels are made for different engines because different engines have different strengths and weaknesses. If you put Doom levels in a Build game you'll miss levels that are made for Build because stuff like environmental destruction, increased verticality, breakable objects, interactivity are Build features you expect.

Never played Daikatana though, I never dared to do it because it has AI companions and I don't like that in an FPS.

[Zaxx]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Balance is not typically a design goal in a retro shooter, though.

That's not really true per se. Sure, balancing is different in a multiplayer shooter because the emphasis is on different things but a single player FPS has to work on the same level, even if it's a retro shooter and these days especially if it's a retro shooter (you won't sell your game with graphics, you sell it with mechanics and level design, things like Doom's useless pistol don't fly anymore). To me a single player FPS is balanced well if I can use my whole arsenal effectively in the right situations and if I don't have hordes of ammo for the really powerful weapons.

This was mostly true for IM's preview campaign I think, maybe there could have been less bowling bombs but I understand that the physics and the bombs are unique stuff the devs wanted to show off with. It worked, it was awesome but the full game should be a bit more conservative when it comes to available bombs per level.

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 08 March 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

Never played Daikatana though, I never dared to do it because it has AI companions and I don't like that in an FPS.

With the 1.3 version you can deactivate the AI buddies.

[Fox]

Preview Campaign beaten in less than 3 minutes:

[Danukem]

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something. Maybe some mandatory encounters other than just the final boss. It's cool but it also makes a mockery of the game.

[Mblackwell]

[Mblackwell]

And for all episodes:

[OpenMaw]

First episode was done in 2 minutes there, holy shit.

So yeah, it's part for the course with BUILD games.

I was just listening to Romero talk about one of the Quake Done Quick's where he was flabbergasted by how someone bypassed an elevator section in one of his Quake maps by using a rocket trick. The whole discussion there was talking about the shock of Rocket jumps.


I don't see it as an issue, personally. If someone wants to play it that way fine, but you're just basically pressing the fast forward button and missing all the content, it's just another way to play.

[Micky C]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something. Maybe some mandatory encounters other than just the final boss. It's cool but it also makes a mockery of the game.

Make the starting elevator and elevator to the basement take a minute longer each, and you'll double his speed run time

Seriously though, this is great. One of Shadow Warrior 2013 and 2's biggest problems was that it made certain fights mandatory and dragged them out (with bullet sponge enemies). The more freedom the better IMO.

[Danukem]

Commando Nukem, on 08 March 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

First episode was done in 2 minutes there, holy shit.

So yeah, it's part for the course with BUILD games.

I was just listening to Romero talk about one of the Quake Done Quick's where he was flabbergasted by how someone bypassed an elevator section in one of his Quake maps by using a rocket trick. The whole discussion there was talking about the shock of Rocket jumps.


I don't see it as an issue, personally. If someone wants to play it that way fine, but you're just basically pressing the fast forward button and missing all the content, it's just another way to play.

I get all that, and I'm all well aware of Duke speedruns (but thanks Mblackwell...I guess). I have watched many a speedrun of many a game and I know there's a lot of skill involved. Ultimately it's up to the developers whether they give a fuck and want to prevent players from doing major skips and/or just running past every encounter.

However, I think there's a strong case for making at least a modicum of effort to minimize unintended skips and glitches, and requiring the player to actually play the game in order to beat it. Especially when one becomes aware of said skips and glitches when the game is still in development.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 08 March 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

Seriously though, this is great. One of Shadow Warrior 2013 and 2's biggest problems was that it made certain fights mandatory and dragged them out (with bullet sponge enemies). The more freedom the better IMO.

If they were boring fights with bullet sponge enemies, then they were badly designed fights. So you seem to be saying that it was good to be able to skip them because the intended gameplay was bad. While I suppose this does make a case for allowing skips, it makes a much stronger case for better gameplay design.

[Mblackwell]

Just so you're aware - most of the regular kinds of skips are prevented in Ion Maiden, most of them automatically. There are a few skips with SOS and the like that are pretty much impossible to account for however. Additionally there is a speedrunner on the team, and there were more in testing, and there were some skips and tricks (or kinds of skips) that have been left in place purposefully to let that community have a bit of fun in their own way.

[Danukem]

Mblackwell, on 08 March 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

Just so you're aware - most of the regular kinds of skips are prevented in Ion Maiden, most of them automatically. There are a few skips with SOS and the like that are pretty much impossible to account for however. Additionally there is a speedrunner on the team, and there were more in testing, and there were some skips and tricks (or kinds of skips) that have been left in place purposefully to let that community have a bit of fun in their own way.

That's all good. What I don't like is an attitude that I come across sometimes of "don't fix it cuz speedrunning is cool bro!" and I was getting a touch of that from some of the other comments.

As anyone knows who has ever been involved in the development of a project that has complex levels, preventing unintended skips is just part of the testing and revision process. There does come a point where the effort required to prevent a skip is no longer worth it (because the skip is hard to prevent, the skip is very minor or the skip itself is hard for the player to do), but to suggest something like "hey man don't worry about it because freedom == more ways to play == good!" is just fucking stupid.

[Forge]

Speed runs are great and have a sort of "tradition".

That being said, the glitch where the door clips the player into the room with the elevator that goes to the basement should be fixed. It's a bug.

[Altered Reality]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something.

So people are gonna bitch that it's linear like DNF.

[Mike Norvak]

IMHO the main point they need to tear in mind is wether or not the glitch was intentional, is the player looking for exploits? well it's ok, speedrunners will always find a way, is the player accidentaly transported to other area/stuck/dead after a glitch? that's definitely unintended behaviour and need to be prevented.

[oasiz]

We do take running in to account and test for bugs quite heavily, not to mention that we know a ton of ways to mitigate stuff, hell, I used to route duke3d and used to speedrun actively myself a couple years back
Goal is to patch anything that is a harmful bug, anything that gets left in (i.e. a clever skip) generally gets embraced and some times thought gets put behind. This is why you can skip the red key through the bathroom window, not much of a speed increase but you can be clever there and with a risk/skill tradeoff you can skip about a minute worth of game play.

Keep in mind that build engine is what it is, whenever you introduce SOS, there WILL be a way to clip. Even original duke/RR/etc.. are full of stuff like this.
Many can play the game for years and still never encounter a proper skip, but the tricks aren't hard.. Watch a video and almost anyone can do those.
After you know how it works, it's really easy to keep finding new spots like this. Just the nature of the engine and collision code

So yeah, harmful bugs (getting stuck) are definitely something we don't want. If any get left in then you really should have to work your way intentionally to get to this situation.
Luckily in this case the teleport doesn't leave you stuck, it just prevents further backtracking.

Bottom line: No, we don't want to have a broken game just because

NOTE: In this case the "left in trick" is not a SOS clip. It's just one way to use bowlingbombs.

[Micky C]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

As anyone knows who has ever been involved in the development of a project that has complex levels, preventing unintended skips is just part of the testing and revision process. There does come a point where the effort required to prevent a skip is no longer worth it (because the skip is hard to prevent, the skip is very minor or the skip itself is hard for the player to do), but to suggest something like "hey man don't worry about it because freedom == more ways to play == good!" is just fucking stupid.

I can appreciate that as a modder who develops games in his spare time, you would like people to enjoy every aspect of the game that you worked hard to produce.

However, keep in mind that Ion Maiden is a paid product that people also fork out hard earned cash for, and should be allowed to play the game anyway they like, particularly since this game is based on an era where ultra-quick speed runs are a notable factor.

Yes, Shadow Warrior 2’s bigger problem was having boring fights with bullet sponge enemies at times, however the frustrating thing is that it advertised itself as having relatively open-world levels with a lot of freedom, and then completely disregarding that during these fights.
What I’m saying is that Ion Maiden’s priority should be to make the game so interesting that you wouldn’t want to speed run (and miss the juicy gameplay), other than for the sake/challenge of it, or if you’ve played it for the 1000th time and want to do something different. At times like these, freedom == good, and Voidpoint has the skill, resources, and motivation to pull it off. Of course, these are all opinions, which can’t be right or wrong.

[Doom64hunter]

I think a bug like this should be fixed if it is frequently triggered by a player through no fault of his own, and/or if it can affect the player in some negative fashion.

In the case of clipping to the exit, I do see a problem in that he's prevented from backtracking without noclipping if he hasn't gotten the key yet. That would definitely annoy me if it happened.
One solution would be to add another vent inside the area that leads outside (the vent being inaccessible from outside of course), or having a fire extinguisher to blow up part of the wall.

[MusicallyInspired]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something. Maybe some mandatory encounters other than just the final boss. It's cool but it also makes a mockery of the game.

I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Nothing has been hated more in video game development than invisible walls. I also fail to see how being able to speedrun makes a "mockery" of the game. I'm no speedrunner, but I can also see some backlash at the idea of actively attempting to prevent speedrunning from happening. Look at the differences between Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission. They're both great games, but so many more people appreciate Zero Mission and not just because it's easier to speedrun.

[necroslut]

MusicallyInspired, on 09 March 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Nothing has been hated more in video game development than invisible walls. I also fail to see how being able to speedrun makes a "mockery" of the game. I'm no speedrunner, but I can also see some backlash at the idea of actively attempting to prevent speedrunning from happening. Look at the differences between Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission. They're both great games, but so many more people appreciate Zero Mission and not just because it's easier to speedrun.

I think there's a significant difference between padding every corner other than the main path with invisible walls and putting up a couple where the player really was never meant to go. Ion Maiden already offers a freedom of movement and exploration beyond what I can remember seeing in a very long time. I also don't think preventing a few major skips is really "preventing speedrunning from happening".

For a game that's already taking some flack for "being a 40 minute demo", really short speedruns this early after release possibly could negatively affect it.

[Doom64hunter]

I don't think the quickness of a speedrun says much about the quality of a game. In fact, I have never ever seen anyone judge the quality based on how quickly the game can be completed in a speedrun, not even on cesspits like /v/.
To give you an example: The new Prey is critically acclaimed, yet has a glitch that makes a speedrun of the whole game possible within minutes. Same case with TES: Oblivion.
And the Build engine is a special case anyways, since it is after all the game engine famous for doors that can and will crush you without warning, so bugs like these are kind of expected. (maybe even welcome?)

When it comes to other issues, I would rather worry about the experience the average player is going to have, rather than what a speedrunner experiences.
The former just wants to play, the latter wants to break it in all forms imaginable.

[Forge]

Doom64hunter, on 09 March 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

I think a bug like this should be fixed if it is frequently triggered by a player through no fault of his own, and/or if it can affect the player in some negative fashion.

In the case of clipping to the exit, I do see a problem in that he's prevented from backtracking without noclipping if he hasn't gotten the key yet. That would definitely annoy me if it happened.
One solution would be to add another vent inside the area that leads outside (the vent being inaccessible from outside of course), or having a fire extinguisher to blow up part of the wall.

^This

I have nothing against speed-running a map within it's allowable parameters. I don't do it myself, not my cup of tea, but it's cool that it can be done. It has it's own genre of people that compete against each other, creating another aspect of the game.

I'm more of a slow-walker. I'd be competing for the slowest time it takes to get through levels. If I accidentally clipped to a section of the map where I couldn't backtrack, and I hadn't saved for quite some time, I'd be pissed that I lost all my progress and had to restart from some distant point of time in the past, or be forced to find some cheat codes.

It shouldn't be some kind of vendetta to seek out and fix every exploit, but this is still in pre-release demo phase, and obvious bugs should be fixed when brought to light.

[Fox]

This sort of glitch is part of the engine charm. Cut it off guys.

[Forge]

Fox, on 09 March 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

Cut it off guys.

is this a circumcision innuendo?

[NNC]

Forge, on 09 March 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm more of a slow-walker. I'd be competing for the slowest time it takes to get through levels. If I accidentally clipped to a section of the map where I couldn't backtrack, and I hadn't saved for quite some time, I'd be pissed that I lost all my progress and had to restart from some distant point of time in the past, or be forced to find some cheat codes.

It shouldn't be some kind of vendetta to seek out and fix every exploit, but this is still in pre-release demo phase, and obvious bugs should be fixed when brought to light.

Me too... when I play a good level, I don't even want to leave ti, and play it as it is intended to be played.