[MrFlibble]

I just realised that the starting area is essentially built around what John Romero calls the "classic horseshoe" design. Was that an intentional nod to his design philosophy?

[NightFright]

Speaking of which: Has Romero played this already?

[Zaxx]

Doom64hunter, on 07 March 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

Upon killing an enemy, on rare occasions Shelly will state "Laputan Machine", referencing Gunther Hermann's killphrase from Deus Ex.

Yes, that was a really good touch. I like references that you don't get instantly but rather you start thinking about them: "Where did I hear that one before?" and then when you get it it's "Ooooh, they know that I know, they played that game too just like I did!" Stuff like that create a connection and that's why I like the secrets in the preview campaign too. When I found the Aliens secret I had to stop and think about it and even when I got it it was a bit hard to believe that it was that specific. The same thing with the Hellraiser reference, I was like "Is that... is that really the thing from Hellraiser 2 and 3?".

Anyway just to get back to the one-liners I think the game could take a bit more from Deus Ex or System Shock because of the cyberpunk theme just like Duke 3D and Blood took more than one reference from the same source. If you think about Deus Ex for example "What a rotten way to die!" seems like a must because even though it's a much more well known line from the game than "Laputan Machine" it just fits and creates the connection the same way "Laputan Machine" does. And really this one's just timeless, it will always be funny:

Another obvious one would be Blade Runner and there's even a very memorable line in that movie that would get a different meaning in Ion Maiden if it's changed slightly: "It's too bad she won't live... but then again, who does?" Now in the movie that has a philosophical meaning while it also hints that Deckard may be a replicant. An action game where you're killing everyone totally changes the context:

"It's too bad he won't live but then again who does?"

[MrFlibble]

I just completed the first level and explored a bit the second one, it's a lot of fun!

One thing I noticed though, there are no air bubbles when swimming underwater? Also I don't think there are water splashes when you swim or walk move on the water surface.

I don't get the criticism of the music, a part of the first level's track heavily reminded me of a track from the PlayStation version of Duke3D, hardly a coincidence.

[Doom64hunter]

I'm glad that the game is enjoying as much attention as it does.

At first I was afraid it would be overshadowed by the train wreck that is HDTF, and be lost to history due to a lack of marketing. But now that I've seen it being mentioned on so many various different communities, be it Facepunch, Reddit, 4chan or Doomworld, with hundreds of positive reviews on Steam and various Youtubers and Gaming News praising it, my worries can finally be put to rest.

Hell, you guys even managed to get a stickied thread on ZDoom simply because people were so eager to rip the assets from your game already
While maybe not desirable, it does speak very positively for the game.

What excites me most is that, with a steady source of income, there is now also a real incentive to make big changes to the eduke source port, meaning that a functional multiplayer is finally within reach.

[Ninjakitty]

Major glitches found so far:
Under circumstances I have been unable to identify, some light switches just crash the game
(maybe had something to do with me switching to software renderer and back to opengl?)

Bowling bombs can go right through <90 degree corners (which can sometimes crash the game)
A good place to do this is the metro station with the acid pouring out of the vent

Some things to work on:
Most pushable objects hate being pushed diagonally and only like to be pushed on a global axis

When pulling objects, Shelly sometimes just decides to be all butter-fingered, while other times she seems to have a really firm grip

Maybe add a little bit of physics to swimming so that it doesn't feel so stiff

Maybe give the enemies more animations and some more mechanical sounds

[DavoX]

MrFlibble, on 07 March 2018 - 12:46 PM, said:

I just realised that the starting area is essentially built around what John Romero calls the "classic horseshoe" design. Was that an intentional nod to his design philosophy?

Heh. It's funny you mention that. I actually never knew about this when designing the beginning area.

[Forge]

Doom64hunter, on 07 March 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

What excites me most is that, with a steady source of income,......

and future commercial addons (instead of Caribbean, life's a beach, it'll be Shelly Sells Sea Shells by the Sea Shore)

[NNC]

NightFright, on 07 March 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Speaking of which: Has Romero played this already?

Just for curiousity. Did Romero ever make a map for any Build engine games?

[Zaxx]

Nancsi, on 08 March 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

Just for curiousity. Did Romero ever make a map for any Build engine games?

Nope but I don't think that's much of a shame. Romero shines when it comes to abstract level design and Build is not really about that.

Btw. his new Doom levels he released 1 or 2 years ago are great.

[MrFlibble]

Zaxx, on 08 March 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Nope but I don't think that's much of a shame. Romero shines when it comes to abstract level design and Build is not really about that.

Would be interesting if he did some none the less.

Back to the Preview Campaign, so far I have found myself using the revolver almost exclusively, and had very little use for the shotgun. It seems to be only effective at very close range, while the design of the first level is such that ranged weapons are more effective. In fact, the enemies most often appear at some distance, you shoot at them with the revolver, "I never miss", done. By comparison, the levels in Duke Nukem 3D often have the monsters placed such that using the shotgun becomes a strategically sound if not imperative decision. I understand that bowling bombs are Shelly's trademark weapons, and they do work well at medium range in situations where Duke would use the shotgun, but the enemies take so few hits with the revolver that I found the bombs to be quite optional. Well, maybe it's just the first playthrough (I remember that when I played Shadow Warrior for the first times I over-used Uzis and almost never used the riot gun, even though actually it's very effective), medium difficulty and with the auto-aim on, but so far the revolver seems very powerful to me.

Concerning the enemies I'm okay with their visual design, but I believe that they could use more personality so to speak. Consider the enemies in Rise of the Triad. The Low Guard will sometimes play dead and ambush you, the Lightning Guard steals weapons and begs for mercy, Strike Team folks dodge your projectiles (I guess this was pretty hard to digitise BTW) etc. Of course, the grunts in Ion Maiden may be more like the palette swapped ninjas in SW (shoot a variety of stuff, duck, crawl, shoot some more), but with the revolver's efficiency and accuracy they often become nothing more than distant targets in a shooting range.

[MusicallyInspired]

Interesting. I felt the opposite. In fact, I was surprised at the range of the shotgun. Not that the Loverboy was useless, I definitely used it. Also, the ammo was just sparse enough to have to keep switching between them. That's what I found, anyway.

[Zaxx]

MrFlibble, on 08 March 2018 - 04:30 AM, said:

medium difficulty and with the auto-aim on, but so far the revolver seems very powerful to me.

Easy: turn off autoaim and play on hard. On a higher difficulty it's much easier to lose a chunk of health because you have multiple enemies shooting at you while you're wasting your time with picking them off with the revolver.

I like the shotgun. It has a pretty good range which reminds me a bit of the shotgun in Brutal Doom, IM's version is just more balanced because BD's shotgun is basically a sniper rifle. It's spread is not overblown and headshots are worth it so you actually have to aim with it too even from closer range and that's how I like a PC FPS. Usually in console shooters the shotgun's spread is so big that's it's the "don't aim, everything will die anyway" weapon.

The thing is however that we can't really talk about weapon balance since alternate firing modes are missing from the demo. It was silly to ship the preview campaign without those, we just can't judge the weapon balance now.

[NNC]

Zaxx, on 08 March 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Nope but I don't think that's much of a shame. Romero shines when it comes to abstract level design and Build is not really about that.

Btw. his new Doom levels he released 1 or 2 years ago are great.

I'm pretty sure maps like O of destruction or even Tech Gone Bad would look great in Build as well.

[Fox]

Zaxx, on 08 March 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Nope but I don't think that's much of a shame. Romero shines when it comes to abstract level design and Build is not really about that.

I would say it's more about Doom texture set.

[neznam]

Eh... It looks okay, but it's certainly an "imposter" itself. A higher end one.

It's just "off". Something about the smoothness of the the animation, especially in the explosions and the smg, the way things move, the voice acting.. I know it can't get much better than this, it still looks extremely fun but it's superficially incapable of emulating the feel of the old titles.

[Zaxx]

Fox, on 08 March 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

I would say it's more about Doom texture set.

Haha, yes but to me the stuff Romero does with his levels is best when it's presented in an engine that is restricted to "pure level design." Doom has no jumping (for example if you'd just "port" Tech Gone Bad to Build jumping in itself breaks its flow) and even Quake is limited compared to what can be done on a great Build level. I'm sure he'd make wonderful levels if he designed maps specifically for Build but his existing work really wouldn't be anything special because it doesn't use the features that Build maps love to use for a reason.

[OpenMaw]

No. Romero demonstrated that he has true skill in every engine he ever worked with. Yes, even with Daikatana.

[Danukem]

I found the weapons to be pretty well balanced, with the exception of the bowling bombs, which were a bit OP. Balance is not typically a design goal in a retro shooter, though. Typically some weapons are simply supposed to be better than others. In a modern game with more emphasis on multiplayer, we want every weapon to have its niche, but no weapon to be very weak compared with others. Since I don't know what the devs are going for, I can't say whether they succeeded. I will say that the weapon I used the least was the SMG, but I'm not sure why.

I hope we get a sniper in the full release.

[MusicallyInspired]

The SMG was a bit annoying because it reloads so frequently. Not as good as you'd think for a mass gunfight with more than 3 enemies. Still, I like it.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 08 March 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

No. Romero demonstrated that he has true skill in every engine he ever worked with. Yes, even with Daikatana.

Did anyone say something different? I have huge respect for Romero, I think he is a genius... but different levels are made for different engines because different engines have different strengths and weaknesses. If you put Doom levels in a Build game you'll miss levels that are made for Build because stuff like environmental destruction, increased verticality, breakable objects, interactivity are Build features you expect.

Never played Daikatana though, I never dared to do it because it has AI companions and I don't like that in an FPS.

[Zaxx]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Balance is not typically a design goal in a retro shooter, though.

That's not really true per se. Sure, balancing is different in a multiplayer shooter because the emphasis is on different things but a single player FPS has to work on the same level, even if it's a retro shooter and these days especially if it's a retro shooter (you won't sell your game with graphics, you sell it with mechanics and level design, things like Doom's useless pistol don't fly anymore). To me a single player FPS is balanced well if I can use my whole arsenal effectively in the right situations and if I don't have hordes of ammo for the really powerful weapons.

This was mostly true for IM's preview campaign I think, maybe there could have been less bowling bombs but I understand that the physics and the bombs are unique stuff the devs wanted to show off with. It worked, it was awesome but the full game should be a bit more conservative when it comes to available bombs per level.

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 08 March 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

Never played Daikatana though, I never dared to do it because it has AI companions and I don't like that in an FPS.

With the 1.3 version you can deactivate the AI buddies.

[Fox]

Preview Campaign beaten in less than 3 minutes:

[Danukem]

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something. Maybe some mandatory encounters other than just the final boss. It's cool but it also makes a mockery of the game.

[Mblackwell]

[Mblackwell]

And for all episodes:

[OpenMaw]

First episode was done in 2 minutes there, holy shit.

So yeah, it's part for the course with BUILD games.

I was just listening to Romero talk about one of the Quake Done Quick's where he was flabbergasted by how someone bypassed an elevator section in one of his Quake maps by using a rocket trick. The whole discussion there was talking about the shock of Rocket jumps.


I don't see it as an issue, personally. If someone wants to play it that way fine, but you're just basically pressing the fast forward button and missing all the content, it's just another way to play.

[Micky C]

Trooper Dan, on 08 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I know speed running is very popular these days, but you guys need to add some invisible walls or something. Maybe some mandatory encounters other than just the final boss. It's cool but it also makes a mockery of the game.

Make the starting elevator and elevator to the basement take a minute longer each, and you'll double his speed run time

Seriously though, this is great. One of Shadow Warrior 2013 and 2's biggest problems was that it made certain fights mandatory and dragged them out (with bullet sponge enemies). The more freedom the better IMO.

[Danukem]

Commando Nukem, on 08 March 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

First episode was done in 2 minutes there, holy shit.

So yeah, it's part for the course with BUILD games.

I was just listening to Romero talk about one of the Quake Done Quick's where he was flabbergasted by how someone bypassed an elevator section in one of his Quake maps by using a rocket trick. The whole discussion there was talking about the shock of Rocket jumps.


I don't see it as an issue, personally. If someone wants to play it that way fine, but you're just basically pressing the fast forward button and missing all the content, it's just another way to play.

I get all that, and I'm all well aware of Duke speedruns (but thanks Mblackwell...I guess). I have watched many a speedrun of many a game and I know there's a lot of skill involved. Ultimately it's up to the developers whether they give a fuck and want to prevent players from doing major skips and/or just running past every encounter.

However, I think there's a strong case for making at least a modicum of effort to minimize unintended skips and glitches, and requiring the player to actually play the game in order to beat it. Especially when one becomes aware of said skips and glitches when the game is still in development.