[OpenMaw]

Why would the discussion be closed? Discussion in this sense is good for the game. Aside of some slight incensed back-and-forth it's relatively civil and it's still on topic with relation to the game and the character. You know what the big problem is? There are only so many ways to praise the game. It's a good game. There's not a lot to really critique in that regard, and speculation is only going to go so far on so little.

I posted two attempts to return to talking about just the game without the bullshit, and the discussion turn back this way within four posts. But hey, let's try again here.

Fox, on 30 March 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

100% staged.

On the subject of staged, this is probably my favorite staged image from Duke 3D. It has such a meta-aspect to it when you finally play the game and find that location is a literal STAGE.

Forge, on 29 March 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

I only know of two who did it pre-spoiler videos. (vid dated Mar 2 -almost all other vids are from Mar 3 or later)
James, and the person that made the videos.

There were a couple secrets in each section that kicked my ass, and I ended up having to watch the vids.

I got to the end of the first level with half the secrets still unfound. "WHAT!?" I had to go back and my brain was honestly hurt trying to think outside the box. Props to the mappers, again, for stuffing in the secrets.

MrFlibble, on 30 March 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

I was immediately reminded of this guy:

That's rather uncanny actually. Props to the developers for paying homage to all manner of 90s shooters in that regard.

[Daedolon]

Marathon 2 also has similar enemies. There's also this fun movie:



The 80s and 90s were full of crazy fun stuff.

[Zaxx]

It's interesting to know that the Loverboy is not as far fetched as it may seem:
http://www.guns.com/...-shot-revolver/

Lol.

[Hank]

[Nitpicking]
It looks like the index finger of the left hand is too long? I tried with my own hand, no matter what I can't replicate the pose.


[/nitpicking]

[OpenMaw]

It's the angle. I think her middle finger is pulled back and bent more. I was able to roughly replicate it by holding my hand in a certain way.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 01 April 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's the angle. I think her middle finger is pulled back and bent more. I was able to roughly replicate it by holding my hand in a certain way.

this^

I simulated like I was holding a beer bottle with the top finger a bit closer to the neck than what I would normally hold a bottle. Felt a little abnormal bringing my top finger in a bit like that, but it looked roughly the same.
Maybe Shelly has a yet to be revealed drinking problem.

[Hank]

^ as I wrote, I'm nitpicking.
Still, I tried with two 3D hands, no luck.

[Forge]

Hank, on 01 April 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still, I tried with two 3D hands, no luck.

that's cause you're used to drinking from a can.
barbarian.

[OpenMaw]

Hank, on 01 April 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

^ as I wrote, I'm nitpicking.

I think you were titpicking.

Forge, on 01 April 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

that's cause you're used to drinking from a can.
barbarian.

Everyone of class and good manners drinks from a glass. A shapely glass.

[MrFlibble]

Daedolon, on 01 April 2018 - 04:54 AM, said:

There's also this fun movie:

I'm suddenly asking myself if this wasn't an inspiration for Eradicator in the first place...

[Micky C]

On subsequent playthroughs of Ion Maiden it has become more and more clear that the levels are quite linear in their progression; the way you complete the levels, despite their relatively open and non-linear layouts. For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first. Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value. Will this be improved in levels in the final game?

[OpenMaw]

Compare and contrast, Micky, what's a better example of level design in your view from one of the other old school FPS that IM stands next to? Something from Doom or Duke 3D perhaps that you think would be something VP should take a closer look at?

[Forge]

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

On subsequent playthroughs of Ion Maiden it has become more and more clear that the levels are quite linear in their progression; the way you complete the levels, despite their relatively open and non-linear layouts. For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first. Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value. Will this be improved in levels in the final game?

Why, that sounds just like every Duke3d map in all the original episodes that have locks and keys.
The horror.

[Micky C]

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.

[NNC]

Forge, on 02 April 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

Why, that sounds just like every Duke3d map in all the original episodes that have locks and keys.
The horror.

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

[MetHy]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.

HH is an exception in the entire game, as you can tackle the level any way you want. You can even use the jetpack to skip the keycard (which is not to be confused with maps in which you can skip entire areas if you saved the jetpacks acquired in previous maps; in HH they hand over the jetpack so you may directly fly to the exit in the same map).
The type of unlinearility DN3D generally has is similar to what you find in the office area in Washington Wasteland if you make the walls explode when you come up the ladder, except down to smaller scale areas in Duke. That office area is also exactly what you describe with "playing it backwards".

People tend to idolize unlinearility especially regarding older FPS games. AMC TC also has overwhelming areas and "This is so huge, where do I go and where was that area again" moments which is something I think IM should avoid.

I think that in this regard the preview campaign does things relatively right. It offers enough freedom, the only really big 'unlinear' progression moment is in the office, but there are also a couple of other small ones. More importantly it offers freedom of movement and exploration, which is a bigger key element in Build era FPS level design than true unlinearility is.

It also alternates between bigger and smaller areas, areas with more freedom than others, which creates a good flow and never becomes too overwhelming; though even the more linear areas offer some freedom, like in Blast Processing and you have 2 paths when you come up the ladder, or the way you can tackle the big fight in the green room of Disrupted Service many different ways.

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

Movie Set is all about that. Rabid Transit also has a room like this. There are probably others instances I can't recall on top of my head.
Coincidentally or not, these are also some of the worsts DN3D maps in my opinion.

Now though in IM the only similar design I can think of is the office area: the director's office requiring a red key and handing out the yellow key as a result. Even then I don't think this is nearly as bad as what you can find in Red Ruckus or in the examples above; for one because it seems to make sense to see that door locked, and secondly because it serves a bigger purpose: making sure the player has explored pretty much the entire office area before accessing the director/manager's room and leaving.

Ideally I think the player should have been able to see the locked office as he comes up, understands he has to find the key which would have given purpose to the exploration.
Edit: or rather, this was supposed to be the role of the yellow lock; but as it is it's not clear the yellow door is the exit and finding that key in the office is our goal.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.

You're cherry-picking user made levels, whereas I specified the commercial game itself.
I seen a speed run video showing all the keys bypassed in IM.
Entering a building from two different doors still leads to the same spot.

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first.

Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So you're making the player explore for three keys at a time instead of one. Either those locked areas are optional, or they have to be entered in order to perform a task which most likely unlocks yet another door. The end result is the same.
What exactly is your argument?

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

The point was in most cases that the keys have to be collected in a certain order, thus creating a sense of linear game play.

So far in IM the blue key separates the office building from the street, the red key (optional) secures the yellow key. The yellow key separates the above-ground section from the subterranean section.
Seems pretty similar to me.

[Merlijn]

I think Ion Maiden hits the perfect balance between linear progression and freedom of movement so far. Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.
But other than that I'd argue to keep some linearity in there, it adds structure and purpose to a map. Unless there's a clearly defined mission (stuff like: find these 3 reactors and destroy them!)

[Forge]

Merlijn, on 03 April 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.

like the very first level
go through the entire garage structure and control rooms
-or-
go up the ladder hidden in the ceiling vent, blow up the gate, drop down into the next section

[OpenMaw]

I'll say this, I think in games like this there is such a thing as too much freedom. In terms of game-flow, if the layouts become confused, and the main path is not made at least somewhat apparent, it can turn off a lot of gamers. You want to make sure the player feels like they're always making progress in the right direction. Having too many alternate paths can make for a hollow feeling.

I think Ion Maiden is doing a great job on that front. Forge cites a great example of the non linearity on display. Personally I enjoyed when old school games would mix it up. Have some really open feeling maps, and others that are more of a glorified straight line. Doom had some great Horse-shoes, some great donuts, and some great "gauntlets" where you were basically always moving forwards in a linear step. To me variety is very important, and just like in a film, spacing and pacing the 'scenes' so that things are both unexpected and interesting.

[NNC]

What Ion Maiden should avoid is to overflow the maps with secrets. Also secrets like the chair pushing one or the one with the precise window jump are chores and not fun at all. People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely. A good comparison is Yoshi's Island of all platform games. A great game with brilliant aesthetics, characters and sounds, but all the fun is drained with the boring hunt for those red coins and flowers.

Another thing I recommend to not overdetail the maps. In the original Build games details like cracks, posters, even blood on the floor was there with a purpose, if for nothing else, just giving a sense of atmosphere of that particular map or an easter egg or showing a secret. Finding secrets in overdetailed maps are less fun and harder too. Even Alien World Order got criticism of being too usermappy, particularly Levelord, who put shitload of unneeded fat in his maps.

[NNC]

MetHy, on 03 April 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

Movie Set is all about that. Rabid Transit also has a room like this. There are probably others instances I can't recall on top of my head.
Coincidentally or not, these are also some of the worsts DN3D maps in my opinion.

Shadow Warrior is also fault of this, particularly Stephen Cole's maps. Shoot random monsters in an open area with 4 locked rooms scattered. Get a key, find the room, get a key, find the room etc.

Ion Maiden did this much better, I think the keys there are used well. Allen Blum was the master of this, he didn't need too many keycards even in large levels.

[Mark]

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely.

Its called replay value. Play again later to go and find all secrets. Not all players are so anal that they HAVE to find all secrets during the first playthrough.

[MetHy]

I've never know all secrets in DN3D until a few months ago and I looked up what I didn't know. Never bothered me; once in a while I'd find something I had never found in 20 years.

[OpenMaw]

Though I do think there is something to be said for fewer,better secrets. I still totally appreciate that the Ion Maiden maps are chock-a-block though.

[MusicallyInspired]

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

What Ion Maiden should avoid is to overflow the maps with secrets. Also secrets like the chair pushing one or the one with the precise window jump are chores and not fun at all. People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely.

<rant incoming>

This is a perspective I've long fought against in the adventure community. Old adventure games used to have multiple solutions for the same puzzle, or workaround routes that were slightly easier (but didn't grant as much points, or in some cases took points). I think some people seem to have the point of view of "how in the world was I supposed to figure THAT out??" Here's the thing: you're not "supposed to". It's there for if you want the challenge. You don't HAVE to. People seem to have this entitled need to be able to solve EVERYTHING and if they can't then it's the developers' fault for not making it easy enough to figure out. Reminds me of parents who get mad at teachers because their kid failed. Ridiculous. If the puzzle or challenge was the only option and there were no other ways to beat the level/game/puzzle/area/etc then the frustration is understandable. But complaining because all the secrets that are unnecessary to finish the game are too hard to find is silly.

There's a puzzle in King's Quest 1 where you have to get to the cloud world to get a treasure chest from a giant. There are two ways to get there. Both involve talking to the same character. You have to guess a gnome's name and if you get it wrong he gives you a key to a magic door which leads to a cavern with a stairway to the cloudland. If you guess it right he gives you magic beans which you plant and which grow into a giant beanstalk so you can climb to cloudland. The obvious answer is "Rumplestiltskin", however that's not correct. The game does let you know that you're on the right track with your line of thinking, though. The correct solution to the puzzle is hinted at with a note you find in a witch's cottage in the forest which seems to be there for no reason that just reads "sometimes it is wise to think backwards". So if you have the forward thinking to connect the clue with that particular puzzle you may figure that all you have to do is type "Rumplestiltskin" backwards. But that's not correct either (but, again, the game hints that you are on the right track). The correct solution is to write out the whole alphabet on paper, then write out the whole alphabet again underneath but backwards, then match the letters for the name "Rumplestiltskin" in the backwards alphabet which is some unintelligible mess of consonants and vowels.

Many complain about this to this day and call it bad game design but I staunchly disagree. Those games were small back then in 1983 and one of the ways to prolong gameplay or add replay value was to add the points system. You can finish the entire game without full points. You could play again to try to finish the game the correct way and get full points but you don't HAVE to. Guessing the gnome's name in a backwards alphabet may seem "unfair" but imagine back in the day when you have no internet to rely on for hints and it's just you and the game. Imagine finally putting it all together and getting that puzzle correct. You'd be over the moon. It's not outdated and it's not bad design, it's an added challenge that you can choose to commit yourself to overcoming or not. There's nothing wrong with that. The Rumplestiltskin puzzle was the biggest puzzle and the final greatest challenge to overcome to get full points. But it's entirely inconsequential to finishing the game.

[Micky C]

Forge, on 03 April 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

The end result is the same.
What exactly is your argument?

The end result would not be the same if the distribution of weapons or ammo is different in the different areas.

Forge, on 03 April 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

like the very first level
go through the entire garage structure and control rooms
-or-
go up the ladder hidden in the ceiling vent, blow up the gate, drop down into the next section

I haven't figured out how to lower that ladder. It's a far cry from having a crate next to a ledge in an otherwise near-completely empty street.

Merlijn, on 03 April 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

I think Ion Maiden hits the perfect balance between linear progression and freedom of movement so far. Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.
But other than that I'd argue to keep some linearity in there, it adds structure and purpose to a map. Unless there's a clearly defined mission (stuff like: find these 3 reactors and destroy them!)

An objective like that would be interesting, or having items other than simple keycards, such as requiring the player to upload a virus into a computer. Although I admit my example is probably going beyond what the game is trying to do in terms of story, and that it's difficult to implement such objectives without some kind of PDU, which I don't see the devs implementing.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The end result would not be the same if the distribution of weapons or ammo is different in the different areas.

Not really, And that's splitting very fine hairs.

Take the street section outside the office building - that could easily be divided up into "locked" areas all using the same colored key & having a switch or something needed to get into the office building.

Nothing's changed except those additional areas are now mandatory to visit. Just in no particular order.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value.

I'm going to pick on this post in a different way. Rather than challenge the assertion that the levels are linear, I'm going to challenge the conclusion that this reduces replay value. I don't agree that replay value is necessarily linked with linearity. Linear games can have a lot of replay value, and very open games can lack replay value. Replay value is more a function of the core gameplay loop being fun, combined with the possibility of improving at the game in various ways (playing faster, getting more or better items, or just executing it more skillfully).

[OpenMaw]

Trooper Dan, on 03 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm going to pick on this post in a different way. Rather than challenge the assertion that the levels are linear, I'm going to challenge the conclusion that this reduces replay value. I don't agree that replay value is necessarily linked with linearity. Linear games can have a lot of replay value, and very open games can lack replay value. Replay value is more a function of the core gameplay loop being fun, combined with the possibility of improving at the game in various ways (playing faster, getting more or better items, or just executing it more skillfully).

Indeed, it's why the original Duke and Doom maps bring people back time and time again, and why they inspire so many remakes and re-imaginings.