[Zaxx]

xMobilemux, on 25 March 2018 - 05:20 PM, said:

Where did I demand that? I never said I wanted Shelly to be designed as a pornstar with a microbikini. When I said past designs I was referring more to these ones:

But didn't you say that the current design is boring and generic? I'm asking because those drawings from 97 are just that: boring and generic. It's just Barb Wire's and Heavy Metal's post-apocalyptic design, nothing else and while that's good enough for an NPC in the early versions of DNF it's not exactly protagonist material.

The main problem is however that when you take the character away from Duke Nukem and change her into a tough police officer the 90s design just stops making any sense whatsoever. Originally she was a hot as hell chick with an attitude towards Duke and in Duke's world her looks make sense, hell, the whole sexualization aspect makes sense because her attitude only works if Duke's interested in banging her. That's what you keep forgetting or simply don't understand: the character design has to make sense in the context of the game world, you can't just throw Barb Wire into a cyberpunk cop setting and expect it to make sense because it won't.

Bayonetta's a bad example because she works in her game while what you're proposing wouldn't work in IM. Character design is all about context, especially in old school games where every single pixel counts in world and character building.

[Hank]

Why is Fresh posting ancient concept art at a new game on Steam? (He is certainly on my shit list for this) It's like my ex, deeply digging out the past. Who gives a flying fuck what some previous concepts were? I don't. Why? None ever made the cut into a game. So burn this shit.

It is time to promote Ion Maiden. Promote the hottest game I’ve seen to date.

[xMobilemux]

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

But didn't you say that the current design is boring and generic? I'm asking because those drawings from 97 are just that: boring and generic. It's just Barb Wire's and Heavy Metal's post-apocalyptic design, nothing else and while that's good enough for an NPC in the early versions of DNF it's not exactly protagonist material.

The current design is boring and generic because the industry is full of standard soldier characters, larger than life female characters are hard to find these days and those 97 concepts don't seem generic at all to me, plus they would obviously be reworked to look better.
I disagree on it not being able to work as a protagonist design, if it can work for Lara Croft, it can work for Shelly.

Quote

The main problem is however that when you take the character away from Duke Nukem and change her into a tough police officer the 90s design just stops making any sense whatsoever. Originally she was a hot as hell chick with an attitude towards Duke and in Duke's world her looks make sense, hell, the whole sexualization aspect makes sense because her attitude only works if Duke's interested in banging her. That's what you keep forgetting or simply don't understand: the character design has to make sense in the context of the game world, you can't just throw Barb Wire into a cyberpunk cop setting and expect it to make sense because it won't.

Bayonetta's a bad example because she works in her game while what you're proposing wouldn't work in IM. Character design is all about context, especially in old school games where every single pixel counts in world and character building.

That's what I was talking about in this post:
v
v
v

xMobilemux, on 23 March 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

I'm so obsessed with the character cause I wanted Shelly to be something new and cool in an era of bland and boring western female leads, there are so many things that could have come from building the whole game around one of those past designs.
I mean if they designed Shelly from one of those past designs, the rest of the game would be designed with that in mind, that would set up an interesting game, just makes me wonder what the themes would be, the music, the enemies, the bosses, the atmosphere, etc.

Ion Maiden has nothing noteworthy in those areas so far. I mean the final boss of the preview was just some mech.

Yes Bayonetta works in her world and true that the 90s design of Shelly wouldn't work in the garbage lore 3DR and Interceptor have cornered Voidpoint into.
But there could have been a middle ground in which the current Shelly could have retained some of her past design in the current IM world. Instead they went as generic and safe as one could go with no stand out weapons, no stand out enemies and no stand out protagonist.
IM Shelly retains pretty much nothing what so ever from her past designs.
It's like if Gearbox decided to reboot Duke into a standard soldier with full military, no shades, no color and didn't even make him blonde.

[Forge]

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

The main problem is however that when you take the character away from Duke Nukem and change her into a tough police officer the........the hot as hell chick with an attitude towards Duke and in Duke's world her looks make sense, hell, the whole sexualization aspect makes sense because her attitude only works if Duke's interested in banging her.

It's taking a side-kick character there for her sexual appeal and turning her into a main character and centerpiece of a game.

If you keep her in her original role and then build a game world around her, you'll end up with a sad soft-core porn of a game. Great for a one-off to 13 year old little boys. Bad for any future of the character.
Even in those 'tame' pics that were recently posted by someone in *denial, the focus is still her ass and boobs.

*Denial is not a river.

[Striker]

Hank, on 25 March 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Why is Fresh posting ancient concept art at a new game on Steam? (He is certainly on my shit list for this) It's like my ex, deeply digging out the past. Who gives a flying fuck what some previous concepts were? I don't. Why? None ever made the cut into a game. So burn this shit.

It is time to promote Ion Maiden. Promote the hottest game I’ve seen to date.

[Hank]

Striker, on 25 March 2018 - 07:26 PM, said:

Oh, I see, you wanna help Fred.
Tell me, which of the tramps, from yesteryear, did he (image above) sketch?

[Forge]

Hank, on 26 March 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

Oh, I see, you wanna help Fred.

or Striker's wondering the same thing as you, as in, "wat the hell you thinking, fred"?
at least that's how I took it.
text messages can be a funny thing when a person's expression, influx, or intent isn't always apparent.
Maybe he's wondering why you want to burn history. It should be archived, not destroyed.
Now I'm not sure wat he originally meant by posting that and having your entire comment quoted.


So what is Fred doing? Trying to show how socially conscious he is, and how progressive the Shelly character is by being a strong female instead of the original bimbo?
That's going to go over about as well as the ghost-busters reboot movie. If you try to push a social issue, you alienate half the games potential audience. Let gamer-gate die.

Tx or Hendricks need to reign him in before he kills the future marketing of the franchise (if that is indeed what he's doing).

[cybdmn]

Forge, on 26 March 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

If you try to push a social issue, you alienate half the games potential audience. Let gamer-gate die.

This!

[Hank]

Forge, on 26 March 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

or Striker's wondering the same thing as you, as in, "wat the hell you thinking, fred"?
at least that's how I took it.
text messages can be a funny thing when a person's expression, influx, or intent isn't always apparent.
Maybe he's wondering why you want to burn history. It should be archived, not destroyed.
Now I'm not sure wat he originally meant by posting that and having your entire comment quoted.


So what is Fred doing? Trying to show how socially conscious he is, and how progressive the Shelly character is by being a strong female instead of the original bimbo?
That's going to go over about as well as the ghost-busters reboot movie. If you try to push a social issue, you alienate half the games potential audience. Let gamer-gate die.

Tx or Hendricks need to reign him in before he kills the future marketing of the franchise (if that is indeed what he's doing).

Striker called my out with my gibberish post, well, so I think, and I simply had to counter.

My issue is, that personally, I'm a pervert. I like those babes; but not on Steam under Ion Maiden.
Another fact is, I'm not into Betas. OK then, you're right, keep it, make it public under the right context.

As for Ion Maiden, it's a hot game, in my not so humble opinion, it may sell very well despite marketing that's not to par with the game.

[Zaxx]

I played through the preview in 4K and looking at how things are I have to say I really hope that this game ends up on consoles eventually. Polymost has so little use for a modern video card that the GPU does not give a fuuuuck about the resolution you want to render the game at so getting to native 4K at 60 fps should not be a problem for the Xbox One X and the PS4 Pro in terms of GPU power. The graphics look boss in 4K too (the smoothness, the sharpness... it's beautiful ) so if you manage to get rid of the frame pacing issues you end up with something really special in a day and age where native 4K is the exception and not the rule on consoles.

[Zaxx]

Haha:

[NightFright]

This was realized even better than I expected. Extremely nice idea, extremely well done. Needless to say, I need to own one.

[MusicallyInspired]

I love it, but I'm not sure how to feel about the sticker being on upside-down. I'm guessing so you can read it easier while it's plugged in?

[Mike Norvak]

Zaxx, on 27 March 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Haha:

I love this!!!!! Perfect example of retromarketing. So the physical copies are gonna be USB Floppies? Who needs CD in 2018 anyway! XD

[NightFright]

Any info about the actual size of the integrated USB stick? 64 or 128 MB?

[Mike Norvak]

 NightFright, on 27 March 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

Any info about the actual size of the integrated USB stick? 64 or 128 MB?

I could be wrong, but the total size of the pack is less than 128 Mb AFAIR

[Never Forgotten]

This is going back to the subject of sexualization, why is it wrong to sexualize female characters, but perfectly acceptable to do the same to male characters? I've wondered his for years. People complain about female characters with big tits and tight clothes, but's perfectly fine when you have a male protagonist with big muscles and tight clothes? I know muscles and tits are different, but women tend to sexualize men with muscles the same way men sexualize women with big tits. I don't see where the line is drawn. Personally, I think having Shelly be like the 90's version: big tits, tank top, etc, would've been a bold and interesting move. I'm getting tired of seeing characters like Lara Croft get "corrected" because it's not acceptable by the public. Be bold. Games have become ruined by snowflakes, like Watch Dogs 2, it had fully nude characters, but because people complained that you could see a vagina in it, they released a patch that removed all full frontal nudity. And it looks terrible. The women have skirts on that aren't designed properly, so their legs go right through them, and instead of adding panties, they simply made the top parts of the legs and the full crotch jet black... I'm rambling now... what I'm trying to say is this generation needs a female character who flaunts her sexuality, while also being a straight up badass. No more traumatic backgrounds, and we don't need just a sex object. Give us a strong female character who is also sexualized... is it so hard?

[Forge]

 Never Forgotten, on 27 March 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

why is it wrong to sexualize female characters

sexualization and strong character are not exclusive.
Once sexualization is given on the first date, future dates with the character are forever pigeon-holed.
If you can show that the character can evolve and morph, then it can be given & taken away. Not always expected and demanded.

Look what happened to Duke. He was expected to be a smart-ass tough guy. He went full cringe in 2011 trying to maintain that image. It was an eventuality. He wasn't allowed to be anything else.

[Zaxx]

 Never Forgotten, on 27 March 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

This is going back to the subject of sexualization, why is it wrong to sexualize female characters, but perfectly acceptable to do the same to male characters? I've wondered his for years. People complain about female characters with big tits and tight clothes, but's perfectly fine when you have a male protagonist with big muscles and tight clothes? I know muscles and tits are different, but women tend to sexualize men with muscles the same way men sexualize women with big tits. I don't see where the line is drawn.

Yay, I'll open a huge can of worms now and explain where the line is.

The thing is that Duke is not a sexualized character, no matter how big his muscles are. Sexualization is not about the appearance of a character, it's about sexual objectification. So no matter how irrealistic Duke's body proportions and muscles are, he's not a sexual object and his appearance is not designed to evoke sexual objectification.

This is not a sexualized male:


This is a sexualized male:


The first one is about Arnie being strong and buff as fuck, the second is about Dante being a sexual object. Dante has a rose in his hand and his posture is feminine. His body has this weird, "sexy" curve in order to evoke a sense of motion because women are aroused by "sexual motion" and not by seeing a buff but static body.

Men are different: instead of "sexual motion" we like huge tits, hard nipples, round asses, you name it.

TLDRL: Male sexualization is when you see an image of a guy and your reaction is "wow, so gay".

[Never Forgotten]

 Zaxx, on 27 March 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

TLDRL: Male sexualization is when you see an image of a guy and your reaction is "wow, so gay".

Well, that was my first reaction to the picture, so you're right about that.

[Forge]

 Never Forgotten, on 27 March 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

I'm getting tired of seeing characters like Lara Croft get "corrected"

proof is in your own statement
regardless of the reasoning behind the change, people with adolescent attachment are now upset that one of their childhood fantasies no longer has big boobs.
once given on a first date, there's no going back. The character can no longer evolve without major backlash.

[Zaxx]

 Forge, on 27 March 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

proof is in your own statement
regardless of the reasoning behind the change, people with adolescent attachment are now upset that one of their childhood fantasies no longer has big boobs.

And the weird thing is that if you look at Lara in the new games she still has big boobs, she's still sexy as hell. She still works as a sexual object, it's just not as blatantly obvious as it was before. They found a nice middle ground with her.

[Danukem]

I don't like it when people try to dictate what characters should or shouldn't look like. Sexualized, non-sexualized, military, monstrous, normal looking -- it all has its place. As a player, I prefer that my avatar be visually appealing in some way, but there are many ways to accomplish that. I tend to agree with those who object to characters getting edited due to politically correct attitudes on sexuality. On the other hand, if we start to demand that characters look like sexpots, then we are worse than the sexuality police. All I want is for developers to have the freedom to make stylistic choices without being pressured, demonized or otherwise hassled about it on moralistic grounds from any side. Freedom, baby!

[Never Forgotten]

 Trooper Dan, on 27 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Freedom, baby!

I do agree with you, developers should have the freedom to do whatever they want with their game... with certain limitations... keep it legal, y'know.

[Zaxx]

Trooper Dan, on 27 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

I don't like it when people try to dictate what characters should or shouldn't look like. Sexualized, non-sexualized, military, monstrous, normal looking -- it all has its place. As a player, I prefer that my avatar be visually appealing in some way, but there are many ways to accomplish that. I tend to agree with those who object to characters getting edited due to politically correct attitudes on sexuality. On the other hand, if we start to demand that characters look like sexpots, then we are worse than the sexuality police. All I want is for developers to have the freedom to make stylistic choices without being pressured, demonized or otherwise hassled about it on moralistic grounds from any side. Freedom, baby!

Yeah, I think that's the best attitude to have and really sexualization is in the DNA of some franchises. What would Mortal Kombat be without sexy women?

[OpenMaw]

Forge, on 27 March 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

proof is in your own statement
regardless of the reasoning behind the change, people with adolescent attachment are now upset that one of their childhood fantasies no longer has big boobs.
once given on a first date, there's no going back. The character can no longer evolve without major backlash.

The problem is that the changes do not begin and end with the visuals. That's not where the agenda in general has taken developers.

Lara Croft wasn't just given a breast reduction. Her entire persona was rewritten, and for the worse. She started as quick-witted, educated, athletic, agile, courageous, and tough. They turned her into a platform for victimization and psedo-rape shame posturing.

Same for Samus Aran. Went from being a cold, calculating, brave, badass character to a weak-in-the-knees PTSD victim who literally lost all control of herself because of a man. All because there was an effort made to make her more "real" and "humanize" her. God forbid she shows up at the end of the game in a leotard or a bikini, that's sexist... But making her fall apart and have emotional break downs and lose just about every strong trait she had a character is so much better.

Thankfully it looks like Samus and Lara are pulling back from those God-awful mistakes and they're going back to their more classic personas.

Zaxx, on 27 March 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

Men are different: instead of "sexual motion" we like huge tits, hard nipples, round asses, you name it.

Men and Women as individuals are different too. What one woman finds sexually appealing is not going to be the same as the next. Some women do like "mountain" sized men who have arms bigger than their heads. When this conversation was had back when Bombshell was first being revealed, the subject of Duke's "unrealistic" design was brought up by myself in response to the notion that women are often given 'unrealistic' attire for combat. The problem with even bring Duke into the discussion is that most of us are looking at the sexuality of a female character as hetero-sexual males. We could be entirely blinded by the fact that a character like Duke has absolutely no sexual value to us. I know for a fact that there are women, I know a few, who find men like to be sexually desirable.

You're leaning more towards discussing general sexual identifiers in men and women. IE: firm breasts, pronounced hips, defined posterior, redness in the cheeks and lips, the pace/gait to a woman's walk. Those are all general sexual identifiers that men use when looking at women. It's generally autonomic. We automatically examine people for their sexual trademarks. What makes it more complicated is when you delve into social environment, trends, general culture. For one, the discussion here about a sexed up version of Bombshell. For me, personally? Big breasted, blonde, extra curvy, and looking like she walked off a platform with a pole wouldn't do much for me, because that's not my "type."


Considering for a moment that Bayonetta was created by a female and Duke Nukem was created by men, it would be interesting to reverse template and have a group of women design a Duke Nukem style character and men design a Bayonetta type of character.

Zaxx, on 27 March 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Haha:

Okay, that's fucking cool.

[Micky C]

How do you insert the USB do that it’s supprted properly?

[OpenMaw]

Micky C, on 27 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

How do you insert the USB do that it's supprted properly?

I doubt there's enough weight on there to worry about support issues.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 27 March 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

The problem is that the changes do not begin and end with the visuals. That's not where the agenda in general has taken developers

Look what happened at Marvel comics.
Strong sexy characters
Now morally repugnant agenda characters with the same physical traits.
No longer so sexy now, even though they look the same.
Is transgenser hero-girl pre or post op penis?
Don't know. Don't want to know.

They tried to keep the physical sex appeal, but take the alleged moral high ground.
Fail.
Sales plummeted.
They're still in diversity denial.

There are different values & traits that attribute to what is sexy.
Sexy and strong are not exclusive.
Don't set the character up to fail.
Leave room to progress and regress without being nailed down to a few characteristics.
Shelly could be super hot under that body armor and uniform. We don't need to know that right away.
Anticipation for what may, or may not come .
Leave room for the imagination.
The imagination always gives you the sexiest result.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 27 March 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

Lara Croft wasn't just given a breast reduction. Her entire persona was rewritten, and for the worse. She started as quick-witted, educated, athletic, agile, courageous, and tough. They turned her into a platform for victimization and psedo-rape shame posturing.

And that's a setting and tone where you can tell an interesting story TR never attempted before. I might have been frustrated about it if the original TR series was healthy as a franchise but let's face it: after Underworld it was dead as a doornail.

There is one thing I'm genuinely angry about when it comes to the new TR and I think that's the real issue instead of whatever route they took with Lara as a character: the gameplay. To me the heart and soul of Tomb Raider was never the story or sexy Lara, it was solving cool puzzles and overcoming the challenging environment by platforming. That's the experience I want from the series and while the new games are competent action games as a fan of the originals I feel left behind so Square can satisfy a larger audience. The way I see it Anniversary was the last true Tomb Raider game so it's just sad that that type of 3D platformer (along with Prince of Persia) died out. I want that shit back.