[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 23 March 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

She fits the cyberpunkian world she resides in, that's true, but she lacks some of the contrast-y punch that her male-kin had in their other games. The BUILDbros basically resonate in their games. I don't think Shelly quite reaches that. I[/size]f we're all remembering BUILD engine games, all the good ones had a character who stood out and basically grabbed a piece of pop culture real estate and made it their hunting ground for character. Ion Maiden get's the most important parts right. The gameplay, level design, consistent theme. Ion Maiden feels a tad safe. That's probably the only weakness I can honestly point to after thinking about it a lot. There's nothing really bitey or provocative about the character, or the world she lives in. Don't get me wrong. None of it is bad. Not at all. It is all very well done, but there is a distinct lack of... I don't want to say Color. Contrast, shall we say?

I agree, the character does not have that provocative aspect... but why would she need it? Come on, it's not the 90s anymore where showing tits and asses is considered provocative, these days that stuff is just juvenile and nothing else. When I was 8-10 years old it was awesome to play a juvenile and provocative game like Duke Nukem 3D but now, as an adult I don't need that aspect that much and not only because I matured but also because there is nothing that could come off as provocative to me at this point.

Back in the 90s this was considered sick and provocative as fuck and something that directly affected the forming of the ESRB:


In 2015 this is mild entertainment on a dull Saturday afternoon:


So really here's my question: how could a Build game with its nice little sprites and low res textures be provocative now? Everybody is watching super hardcore porn on the internet in fucking 4K, the horror genre invented every single piece of brutality and gore that the human mind could ever come up with and a random episode of South Park or Family Guy is more out there than 3D Realms titles ever were. Ion Maiden a has bit of juvenile, provocative humor in it ("we were popular when coke was cheap" and the like), those get a few chuckles out of you as they should but anything else would be dishonest and "tryhard" in this day and age. Making a game to be "90s provocative" would be the most pointless thing ever because it just wouldn't work at all. That goes for the character and the whole game itself.

[X-Vector]

MusicallyInspired, on 23 March 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

It's so funny to me how times have changed. That stuff was empowering to women in the 90s. Since the 60s even really.

Tremendously empowering, amazing.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 23 March 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Let's not go there, Forge. Seriously.

I don't agree with everything that xMobilemux is saying, but I do share his sentiments with regards to the idea that there should be any "embarrassment" over the designs.
Fred in particular has a lot of nerve to talk about

I will go there because I can. Free will and having an opinion still being allowed.

I don't know what this "embarrassment" line is all about that keeps getting repeated. I don't know what Fred said, and personally I don't give a damn what he said.
He should probably shut the fuck up though, before he alienates potential customers and fans.

If you base Shelly off nothing more than shallow fan-boy drool and boobs, she'll have a short shelf-life. It's over-used.
This is allegedly a prequel story, you need to establish a good base attitude and character depth before you worry about fan service with some ass & tit.
I'm about the one of least sjw people on here. I'm not promoting a conservative view of the Shelly character for 'social' reasons. Don't get the issues confused.

She does need to spice up, or get a bit more 'nasty', with her personality. But we've only been give a little bit; not really enough to judge by. Hopefully what we were exposed to isn't all of it and there's more.

(as a side note, I'm surprised somebody already hasn't nuded up the game's splash screen, made her naked & holding a dildo, then posted it all over reddit)

[NightFright]

It's interesting to see where this discussion suddenly went. However, I'd prefer to read more about the game.

[Forge]

NightFright, on 24 March 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's interesting to see where this discussion suddenly went. However, I'd prefer to read more about the game.

having a strong, relatable character is part of the game

Caleb didn't have to walk around in a speedo to be a memorable character.
Just because Shelly has tits doesn't mean she needs to walk around like a Duke stripper wearing pasties to be memorable.

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 06:14 AM, said:

Caleb didn't have to walk around in a speedo to be a memorable character.

And if you think about it Caleb was not an "edgelord" at all, the only thing in Blood that could be considered provocative was the amount of gore. By today's standards that aspect is mild compared to what you see in a Mortal Kombat game or in Brutal Doom yet somehow Blood is still a super enjoyable FPS and a lot more people think of Caleb as a character who is more memorable than the original Lo Wang.

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 24 March 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

Come on, it's not the 90s anymore

You know which game we are talking about?

[cosmonautcowboy]

Zaxx, on 23 March 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

I love how 3DR says that the early versions of the Bombshell design were "inspired by" Barb Wire. It IS Barb Wire, lol.

Yeah, the 1997 one is pretty much the comics Barb Wire, and the 1998 one is Pam Anderson. The face even looks like her. Pretty cool to see all those designs and imagine what might have been.

[Zaxx]

cosmonautcowboy, on 24 March 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, the 1997 one is pretty much the comics Barb Wire, and the 1998 one is Pam Anderson. The face even looks like her. Pretty cool to see all those designs and imagine what might have been.

Just to clarify: when I said Barb Wire I meant the movie with Pam Anderson, this one:

I know next to nothing about the BW comics.

[Forge]

stripperella
(also voice-acted by pam anderson)

[cosmonautcowboy]

Zaxx, on 24 March 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Just to clarify: when I said Barb Wire I meant the movie with Pam Anderson, this one:

I know next to nothing about the BW comics.

Yep, I understood. Most people aren't aware of the comic book.



The comic book is a bit different in that Barb is a normal person, but she's going up against people with superpowers. It was part of Dark Horse Comics' short-lived universe in the early/mid 90s. Most of the characters have completely faded away, the only ones that had any staying power were Ghost and Barb Wire. I like the movie for what it is, but I'm under no illusions that it's a good film. It never occurred to me that it was a deliberate rip-off of Casablanca until someone brought it up on a forum years later.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

stripperella
(also voice-acted by pam anderson)

It's been a while and I never watched the show, but wasn't Stripperella much later? So it wouldn't have been an influence on any of those designs, right? At least not the 1998 ones. Have you seen the show? Is it worth checking out? As I recall it was credited to Stan Lee, of all people.

Anyhow, back on topic...as it relates to the current Bombshell and Ion Maiden, I like the character design we have. On the other hand, it would be cool to see a game go with this totally 90s, Pam Anderson inspired look. We've seen a couple examples of games that fly in the face of the current conventions being financially successful, so it could work.

[Zaxx]

cosmonautcowboy, on 24 March 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:

snip

Yeah, Stripperella was later than most of the Bombshell-designs, around 2004-2005 if I remember correctly. I watched a few episodes, it never won me over.

[Forge]

stripperella was basically a continuation of the pam anderson bimbo-hero shctick. An animated version of Barb Wire, more or less. (at least inspired by barb wire)
I wouldn't watch it on purpose. Not with the volume on.

Barb Wire was bad enough. Rehashing it 7 years later didn't improve it. Another 15 years isn't going to make it age any better.

[cosmonautcowboy]

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

stripperella was basically a continuation of the pam anderson bimbo-hero shctick. An animated version of Barb Wire, more or less. (at least inspired by barb wire)
I wouldn't watch it on purpose. Not with the volume on.

Barb Wire was bad enough. Rehashing it 7 years later didn't improve it. Another 15 years isn't going to make it age any better.

I don't doubt it! Not that I'm above it, though. I'm not gonna lie, I watched plenty of episodes of goofy syndicated series V.I.P.

[Fox]

Maybe the sensual version could work in the Tomb Raider era since it was still fresh. But now we have things like boob physics, half-naked armors, Japanese franchises looking like Hentai, etc. We are tired of that.

So we went with a character who is a cross between Sarah Connor and Anne Lewis. And Fred wasn't involved in the design of Shelly for Ion Maiden.

[Forge]

cosmonautcowboy, on 24 March 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

I don't doubt it! Not that I'm above it, though. I'm not gonna lie, I watched plenty of episodes of goofy syndicated series V.I.P.

If they need a 90's role-model for trope purposes, they should consider Tank Girl.
At least the attitude.
(the hair not so much, not until she has one arm and an excuse for doing that to her head)

Fox, on 24 March 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

So we went with a character who is a cross between Sarah Connor and Anne Lewis.

some Private Vasquez from Aliens wouldn't hurt

[leilei]

As a 3d artist making an arena shooter with a character cast consisting mostly of sexy animus, I'd have to strongly disagree on the whole "shelly needs to be hot" notion here. We don't have enough nonmalegaze-pandering strong female leads as it is and it's wholly refreshing for the Build engine legacy to finally have one in a released product.

Besides, if she were to be 'hot' and had to sell on that, you'd have to deal with that Trespasser trope, or maybe something ridiculous like 'mighty boob engaged' for death smothering or something as depraved.

[OpenMaw]

Zaxx, on 24 March 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

I agree, the character does not have that provocative aspect... but why would she need it? Come on, it's not the 90s anymore where showing tits and asses is considered provocative,

I didn't say anything about needing her to show tits. Provactive in terms of her character.

What I said on the subject of T&A was specifically directed at this notion that it's "embarrassing." Which is a load of shit. No, it isn't. The problem with that line of thinking is that it leads to not just a reduction in the amount of skin on show, it effects the way characters are being portrayed too. Women in games seem to only have "angst" and "anger" to work with.

Having the bikini battle-armor sorta tells you about the character "Oh! This is silly, over the top, juvenile, and immature!" When you put the same character in something far closer to a realistic police/military BDU battle armor look, you're saying "Ah! This is taking itself a little more seriously."

Wanting to play in the same field as Caleb, Wang, Leonard, and Duke Nukem means you gotta step up on that personality. The design from the outset since BS has been tripping over it's own feet. People can't have forgotten just how tremendously bad the backlash for Beta Bombshell was, right? Tonal dissonance. Big time. Ion Maiden managed to save the character from the ashes because it's a good shooter first and foremost. The weakness inherited from her "initial" conceptualization from Bombshell 2015 going forward are the colder look and feel of the character. The color is gone from the design entirely.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

I will go there because I can. Free will and having an opinion still being allowed.

You having an opinion, and you expressing that opinion aren't the issue. You went and edited the quote his post in an infantile, and there was no need for that.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

I don't know what this "embarrassment" line is all about that keeps getting repeated. I don't know what Fred said, and personally I don't give a damn what he said.
He should probably shut the fuck up though, before he alienates potential customers and fans.

Yes, it's what Fred and others have stated in this thread and what I and XmobilemuX were responding to. My issue is, hey, if you don't like the other concepts that's fine. if they're not the way you want to take the character, that's fine, but this post-modern thought process (re: bullshit) that a sexed up character is some how "embarrassing" is the silliest thing I've ever heard. Fred is the last person who should be bringing up embarrassing, and furthermore, implying that there was no other valid course but what we got, or that the "Barberella/Stripperella" inspired version of the character had no merit is based on empty air. We have no idea what that character might have turned out like.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

If you base Shelly off nothing more than shallow fan-boy drool and boobs, she'll have a short shelf-life. It's over-used.

I don't think anyone suggested soley basing her character off her looks. However, people are kidding themselves if they don't think appearance informs characters like this. These are larger than life, pulpy, characters.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

This is allegedly a prequel story, you need to establish a good base attitude and character depth before you worry about fan service with some ass & tit.
I'm about the one of least sjw people on here. I'm not promoting a conservative view of the Shelly character for 'social' reasons. Don't get the issues confused.

Yes, It's a prequel to the Bombshell game. This is pre-war injury, pre-grimdark vendetta against Haskell.

My remarks on the social aspect this are generalities based on the side effects apparent in the way people seem to be thinking about this as a whole, not at anyone in particular.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

She does need to spice up, or get a bit more 'nasty', with her personality.

I don't even know that it's a matter of her needing to get more nasty. She just needs to have more personality. All of her lines in the game at this point are somewhat pedestrian. There's a couple good zingers, but the rest is very blaze.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

(as a side note, I'm surprised somebody already hasn't nuded up the game's splash screen, made her naked & holding a dildo, then posted it all over reddit)

Oh, give them time. I'm sure someone's cooking away.

leilei, on 24 March 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Besides, if she were to be 'hot' and had to sell on that, you'd have to deal with that Trespasser trope, or maybe something ridiculous like 'mighty boob engaged' for death smothering or something as depraved.

Well, by that logic, why didn't Duke have to flex his muscles in Duke Nukem 3D?


I must be coming off as over critical towards IM, and I want to try and correct that impression because I have nothing against what Voidpoint has done. The game is great so far. I just think that the character of Shelly doesn't quite have enough punch, and that's partially because the design still hangs on to what BS did with the character. I will commend VP though for not swinging the pendulum to the other extreme and turning into the very porn parody joke that she could have been.



Anne Lewis, Pamela Anderson, Tank Girl, Sarah Connor... I'd like to drop another name into this discussion.

Lauren Bacall. I'm almost certain Lani Manilla used her as a reference guide when she played Kimberely Strokes (the general) in Duke Nukem Zero Hour, and it's exactly Bacall's persona that I imagined which would fit a character like Bombshell. Just as Eastwood's gritted teeth hard-assery made for a great "shell" for Duke's character, so to would Bacall.


That's just me though.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

Having the bikini battle-armor sorta tells you about the character "Oh! This is silly, over the top, juvenile, and immature!"

But why do you need a bikini armor to express that? It's always these long comments about how Shelly should be "brave" and "provocative" and it all comes down to the fact that some of you want a more sexy protagonist. It seems to me that you're intellectually beating around the bush in order to dress up a simple, easy to understand opinion. You can be silly, over the top and juvenile without bikini armors... and I like women in uniform, okay?!

Quote

When you put the same character in something far closer to a realistic police/military BDU battle armor look, you're saying "Ah! This is taking itself a little more seriously."

But that's exactly what Ion Maiden does, no? It's not like Duke Nukem Forever where everything has to be a pun or a joke to the point where the game is destroying a legendary character, it's like when you were a kid playing Duke 3D for the first time and you laughed on the jokes but you also took it a bit more seriously than maybe how it was intended. IM has a bit more class to it and in my opinion that's a unique flavor that's very welcome in a Build game. Why not?

And really if you think about it the way old Build games did provocative was not always top notch. Let's take Shadow Warrior for example: there are a lot of good jokes in there but there's also stuff like "Haha, hihi, you go poo poo, I leave room", elements like pieces of shit floating around in bathtubs, toilets full of diarrhea and all of these really embarrassing, cringe worthy, cheap stuff. DNF is the continuation of that to the point where Duke can just pick shit up from toilets and throw it around like if he was some retard so it's clear which path that approach leads to (the brown brick road, haha, hihi... oh God). I think it's pretty normal after all that - literal - shit to say that "Okay, we'll draw a bit of a line here, we may be juvenile but we're grownups too". There is nothing wrong with taking that approach other than wanting to be a bit different than the old Build games but if that's a sin then good morning, IM already does it by not having an inventory, not having hitscan enemies, not having a classic level structure etc.

[Phredreeke]

Yeah, I think Shadow Warrior goes a bit too far with the poop jokes.

[Zaxx]

Phredreeke, on 25 March 2018 - 05:06 AM, said:

Yeah, I think Shadow Warrior goes a bit too far with the poop jokes.

Yep, it's really the point where just can't laugh at it in an honest way because a bell goes off in the back of your head saying "well, let's be honest, that was tasteless as hell" and that's what I see on those early Bombshell designs too. To me it's not about being sexual, PC or anything like that, it's about having just a bit of taste while doing anything you want, I mean even if you deliberately want to be tasteless you have to do it with a bit of style so it will have a point. It's the difference between having a stripper in a stripclub (Duke 3D - it's appropriate for the setting with a bit of taste) and having a side character holding a whip with her tits out (early Bombshell - tasteless).

Playing Ion Maiden after games like DNF, Redneck Rampage (enemies made out of poop, yay!) and to a lesser extent even Shadow Warrior is like if you've stared into the abyss and decided to leave once it started staring back at you. IM is clearly not an innovative but an iterative game and iteration is about learning from the past while also replicating what was good in it.

[OpenMaw]

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

It's always these long comments about how Shelly should be "brave" and "provocative" and it all comes down to the fact that some of you want a more sexy protagonist.

No. I've spoken fairly clearly on the subject.

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

But why do you need a bikini armor to express that?

I didn't say I needed it. I was saying, in fewer words, there is such a thing as visual short hand.

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

IM has a bit more class to it and in my opinion that's a unique flavor that's very welcome in a Build game. Why not?

That's totally fine. That doesn't mean that the main character couldn't use a bit more punch. There's nothing, as yet, that makes me go "Damn, she's a badass!" It would be one thing if the character wasn't a talker, but she is, and again, she's playing in that same backyard, as advertised, a BUILD engine game in that same spirit.

Zaxx, on 25 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

And really if you think about it the way old Build games did provocative was not always top notch. Let's take Shadow Warrior for example: there are a lot of good jokes in there but there's also stuff like "Haha, hihi, you go poo poo, I leave room", elements like pieces of shit floating around in bathtubs, toilets full of diarrhea and all of these really embarrassing, cringe worthy, cheap stuff. DNF is the continuation of that to the point where Duke can just pick shit up from toilets and throw it around like if he was some retard so it's clear which path that approach leads to (the brown brick road, haha, hihi... oh God). I think it's pretty normal after all that - literal - shit to say that "Okay, we'll draw a bit of a line here, we may be juvenile but we're grownups too". There is nothing wrong with taking that approach other than wanting to be a bit different than the old Build games but if that's a sin then good morning, IM already does it by not having an inventory, not having hitscan enemies, not having a classic level structure etc.

I think it's a fairly common understanding that Shadow Warrior went too far with it's crass humor. The reboot's sequel, Shadow Warrior 2, also suffers from now knowing when to stop throwing out stupid jokes and infantile humor.

Like I said, i'm glad that the reaction to Bombshell's lukewarm reception wasn't to swing the pendulum all the way into extreme crass with Ion Maiden.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

That's totally fine. That doesn't mean that the main character couldn't use a bit more punch. There's nothing, as yet, that makes me go "Damn, she's a badass!" It would be one thing if the character wasn't a talker, but she is, and again, she's playing in that same backyard, as advertised, a BUILD engine game in that same spirit.

On that one I agree, Shelly needs to have a few "stronger" lines in there and she generally needs to talk a bit more. I think that's coming in the full version though.

Quote

think it's a fairly common understanding that Shadow Warrior went too far with it's crass humor. The reboot's sequel, Shadow Warrior 2, also suffers from now knowing when to stop throwing out stupid jokes and infantile humor.

Oh yeah, it's one of the aspects where I felt SW2 was a letdown. In SW2013 they managed to come up with a really good character: he was a wannabe superhero and a comic nerd and acted like that, it was wonderful. For example the part where he shaves his head because "every hero has to shave his head in a moment of crisis" was just funny as hell and Wang even got to grow a bit as a character by the end, it was super good for what it was. Then SW2 came with 10000 dick jokes and ruined everything... not just Shadow Warrior but EVERYTHING.

[cosmonautcowboy]

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

What I said on the subject of T&A was specifically directed at this notion that it's "embarrassing." Which is a load of shit. No, it isn't. The problem with that line of thinking is that it leads to not just a reduction in the amount of skin on show, it effects the way characters are being portrayed too. Women in games seem to only have "angst" and "anger" to work with.


Yes, it's what Fred and others have stated in this thread and what I and XmobilemuX were responding to. My issue is, hey, if you don't like the other concepts that's fine. if they're not the way you want to take the character, that's fine, but this post-modern thought process (re: bullshit) that a sexed up character is some how "embarrassing" is the silliest thing I've ever heard. Fred is the last person who should be bringing up embarrassing, and furthermore, implying that there was no other valid course but what we got, or that the "Barberella/Stripperella" inspired version of the character had no merit is based on empty air. We have no idea what that character might have turned out like.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you completely.

Are we sure Fred wrote that piece? Over on the 3DR forums, Joe commented that the Bombshell character model from the original announcement trailer wasn't included because "Fred didn’t want me to put it in the article." That makes it sound like it was Joe that wrote it.

[Newken]

Ion Maiden's Shelly reminds me Motoko Kusanagi in Mamoru Oshii's Ghost in the Shell (1995). Ghost in Shelly.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

You having an opinion, and you expressing that opinion aren't the issue. You went and edited the quote his post in an infantile, and there was no need for that.

His post was infantile. He basically demanded that Shelly look and act like some trashy whore or tit flashing bimbo, then to build a game world around that.

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

the "Barberella/Stripperella" inspired version of the character had no merit is based on empty air. We have no idea what that character might have turned out like.

pretty much like all the earlier versions of that character, shallow, and teeth-grindingly annoying. It's still the same formula, nothing's changed.

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

I don't think anyone suggested soley basing her character off her looks. However, people are kidding themselves if they don't think appearance informs characters like this. These are larger than life, pulpy, characters.

That's not the impression I got. This is pretty much a tirade on making Shelly look like a retro 90's bimbo whore, then designing an entire game around a giggly dumb bimbo world.

xMobilemux, on 23 March 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Ion Maiden she just looks like some random soldier you'd take control of in a CoD game

there are so many things that could have come from building the whole game around one of those past designs

I mean if they designed Shelly from one of those past designs, the rest of the game would be designed with that in mind,

note the focus on looks
past design comprising mostly of half-naked big boobs in a pair of daisy dukes.

Telling me how tough you are while you're nipping out?
Not buying it.
What do you really do with that baton when not fighting cyborgs?

Commando Nukem, on 25 March 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

turning into the very porn parody joke that she could have been.

this is what I commented against and you got offended.

[Striker]

I'm with forge on this. There's really no reason for IM to have bimbo Bombshell. I think the path Voidpoint took with the character is a good one, and infinitely more interesting (and believable) to me. Reminds me of a badass Sigourney Weaver role, or like what Newken said with Motoko from Ghost In the Shell, or like Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop (while she does show more skin than Shelly, the personality reminds me of her).

[MusicallyInspired]

I agree. My initial problem with Shelly wasn't that she wasn't flashing skin, just that she looked generic. But like I said, it's grown on me somehow. I really like her hair, actually. Without the helmet she's not bad.

[brullov]

I do not like and dislike Shelly in IM. She looks good as a character, but as a regular NPC. She is "bland" and does not look like a superhero. It's more of my own taste, I'd like see a badass girl like Sarah Connor from T2.



This is sexy.

[xMobilemux]

Forge, on 25 March 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

His post was infantile. He basically demanded that Shelly look and act like some trashy whore or tit flashing bimbo, then to build a game world around that.
note the focus on looks
past design comprising mostly of half-naked big boobs in a pair of daisy dukes.

Telling me how tough you are while you're nipping out?
Not buying it.
What do you really do with that baton when not fighting cyborgs?

Where did I demand that? I never said I wanted Shelly to be designed as a pornstar with a microbikini. When I said past designs I was referring more to these ones:




She's not running around with her tits out or anything like that here. Here I see the female Duke Nukem, Duke never ran around in a mankini, but he didn't wear some standard generic military gear either, he had a signature look with a personality that complimented it.
I wanted Shelly to be similar if not the same.

If you're referring to my post with Bayonetta, that was a response to everyone and Fred about the sexualized designs being embarrassing today when Bayonetta who is designed that way is among the top ladies in gaming.