[Roma Loom]

LeoD, on 06 January 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Roma, I'm not sure if the new 4210 is heading into the right direction. Like in E4L7 (XXX-Stacy) it is often used in user maps as an indoor/office/cubicle wall texture. I always thought of it as some kind of ingrain wallpaper which is now turned into concrete.
4210-old.jpg 4210-new.jpg
More opinions, anyone?

Yeah, I was thinking about this but other texture variations like this one give an impression of stripe being beaveled/bumped into the wall thus making it something like painted wall rather than wallpaper-ed. So really we need opinions, it may just be possible to get on the rails just by reducing specularity

[Micky C]

I think maybe go for the wallpaper look?

LeoD, on 06 January 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Roma, I'm not sure if the new 4210 is heading into the right direction. Like in E4L7 (XXX-Stacy) it is often used in user maps as an indoor/office/cubicle wall texture. I always thought of it as some kind of ingrain wallpaper which is now turned into concrete.
4210-old.jpg 4210-new.jpg
More opinions, anyone?

Thanks LeoD, I had those pictures open when my mum came in the room and talked to me. I didn't even notice until after she left

[Steveeeie]

Micky C, on 06 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I had those pictures open when my mum came in the room and talked to me. I didn't even notice until after she left

HAHAHA


==================

Made this rubber bin/can

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[Steveeeie]

Roma Loom, on 06 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yeah, I was thinking about this but other texture variations like this one give an impression of stripe being beaveled/bumped into the wall thus making it something like painted wall rather than wallpaper-ed. So really we need opinions, it may just be possible to get on the rails just by reducing specularity

I would go with a painted wall.

[Night Wolf]

Steveeeie, on 06 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

HAHAHA


==================

Made this rubber bin/can

Damn Steveeeie your models are awesome.

Could you provide the Defs for the canisters?

[Steveeeie]

Steveeeie, on 06 January 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I would go with a painted wall.

Thanks Ozz

Here is the def I am using for the canisters atm.

There is NO explosion animation, it currently just switches to the old sprite animation.

Its not very noticeable, as they look similar, but I will look into doing a final version this week

// Seenine (1247)
model "highres/sprites/props/1247_seenine.md3" {
   scale 1.5
   skin { file "highres/sprites/props/1247_seenine.png" specpower 25 specfactor 1 }
   normal { file "highres/sprites/props/1247_seenine_n.png" }
   specular { file "highres/sprites/props/1247_seenine_s.png" }
   frame { name "Frame 0" tile 1247 }
}

[Steveeeie]

Does anybody know if there is a way to use map hacks to add extra sprites to a level ?

[Plagman]

There isn't at the moment, no. What is the intent?

[NUKEMDAVE]

What about floor texture expansion? Can that be adjusted with maphacks? If so, I think it's about time for it to be done on at least the pavement in the maps.

[Plagman]

You can use the "scale" DEF token for that.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Ok, I got it. I don't know who is in charge of changing this stuff, but here it is if you do want to change it. I think this is the scale it should be:

texture 815 { 
   pal 0 { file "highres/textures/0815_d.png" xscale 0.5 yscale 0.5 }
   normal { file "highres/textures/0815_n.png" parallaxbias 0.0 parallaxscale 0.005 }
   specular { file "highres/textures/0815_s.png" }
   detail { file "highres/detail/asphalt2.png" xscale 0.3 yscale 0.3 }
}

Here's a preview.






The only problem is that it looks pretty damn smooth on any of the other filters. I always have mine set to nearest, though.

[Plagman]

The problem being that it's a global thing, so it would affect any other uses of this texture too; it can't be used as-is if it causes unwarranted side-effects when that tile is used on walls, for example.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Plagman, on 06 January 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

...it can't be used as-is if it causes unwarranted side-effects when that tile is used on walls, for example.

More pixels than the other textures, of course, but why not?

Edit: There's one or two issues with this. It doesn't match up in resolution with the white and yellow line pavement textures that can be found in the Duke-Burger map.

[Steveeeie]

Plagman, on 06 January 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

There isn't at the moment, no. What is the intent?

Was hoping to add extra detail to my own copy like some extra street props etc.

[Plagman]

Your best best is probably just to edit the map and save a copy at this point. Adding new details to maps is something that's come up before, but on top of the philosophical differences between people not necessarily agreeing about it, you have issues like maps on either end having to be exactly identical for netcode to work right.

[Tetsuo]

People have enough philosophical issues and differences with each other with the improvements the HRP brings to Duke3D as it is.

[LeoD]

Micky C, on 06 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Thanks LeoD, I had those pictures open when my mum came in the room and talked to me. I didn't even notice until after she left

Well, I try to avoid posting dull screenshots. Mission accomplished. Greetings to your mum. Worse things have happened to guys of your age.

Steveeeie, on 06 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Made this rubber bin/can

Not enough that Plagman more or less proclaimed me being the HRP maintainer, I might even be bound to become some obnoxious advocatus diaboli:
Really good work, but does it represent the original ("rubber") intention? To me it looks more like metal. The ashtray on top is really cool, but several instances of this kind of artistic freedom (adding details) have been removed from the HRP some time ago, like the "Eddy Wood" chair3, and the "Lord of the C*ck Rings" movie poster. The rubbercans are used quite frequently which might make it somewhat annoying in the long run if each of them in any environment (unavoidable then) has that ashtray on top.

[Hendricks266]

It's a call that requires discretion. My rule of thumb is: if the sprite contradicts your addition, and the sprite is not in error (like an unintentional typo on a sign, examples in NW and DC), the sprite wins. Off the top of my head that would mean no ashtray. It feels like quashing perfectly good artistic talent, but the purpose of the HRP is to upgrade the graphics. Save reinterpretation and thematic change for Duke 3D: Reloaded.

Also, remember that the rubber can has a "kicked" dented-in frame. Is that present?

LeoD, on 07 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

"Eddy Wood" chair

In this case, the text was plainly not present on the original sprite while on the model it was huge. It may not have been a problem for the one chair in Ep. 3, but it's a very common usermap sprite and is found in spades in Caribbean where the text was annoying.

Other jokes done right include an Intel logo on the inside of the grabber arm from Toxic Dump (look up), and a BSoD on the cash register. "Feed me a stray cat" on the ATM machines is funny but debatable because the same tile is used all over the place and it doesn't quite work like something ubiquitous in real life like a BSoD.

[Plagman]

I'd be fine with keeping the ashtray, but maybe other uses of that sprite would prohibit it. However good point about the animation and the kicked-in frame. What happens if you shoot the can with that model?

[NUKEMDAVE]

Hendricks266, on 07 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Save reinterpretation and thematic change for Duke 3D: Reloaded.

Powered by EDuke.

The solution to this would be to keep the HRP and have a separate pack where people can be free to create a reenvisioning of the game. Since it's unclear what's going to happen with Reloaded and there's people out there willing to make stuff for a project like that. More and more people are wanting a "reloaded" Duke 3D anyway. Instead of people being upset about Reloaded being stalled, why not just make it happen in the best way possible via EDuke? I'm not sure about recreating the levels, but everything else could be remade.

[Lunick]

NUKEMDAVE, on 07 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Since it's unclear what's going to happen with Reloaded

We've been over this, it's not coming back. Stop bringing it up and forget it ever existed.

Anyway, I like the model but I guess it does have to be faithful to the original game.

[Hendricks266]

Plagman, on 07 January 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'd be fine with keeping the ashtray, but maybe other uses of that sprite would prohibit it.

I know the TC LostDuke uses palswaps of it on space stations and science labs where the ashtray wouldn't fit. The rubber can is also used in E4L1 in the mess hall / dining room, where the ashtray may or may not make sense.

I guess this is a good example of the point that should be illustrated: The more "extra" changes you add to a model, the more you restrict its context to a specific use.

NUKEMDAVE, on 07 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

More and more people are wanting a "reloaded" Duke 3D anyway. Instead of people being upset about Reloaded being stalled, why not just make it happen in the best way possible via EDuke?

It already exists; it's called Duke Plus. The maps don't have extra detail but the new smoke, gore, weather, etc show what can be done.

A Polymer HRP nearer completion would go a long way on its own towards an EDuke32-based Reloaded.

[Plagman]

Honestly, I'd be fine with completely ignoring user maps for the purpose of the HRP, and make sure that the official episodes look as good as possible. Not sure how many people agree with that, however.

[Master Fibbles]

If we wanted to make the HRP look good for user maps, we'd be in for a monumental, near impossible, task. There are thousands of published user maps out there and the more creative mappers used sprites and textures in ways that the original designers never intended them to be used. There are various sprites not used in the original maps (parts of animations) that are found as parts of user map architecture etc. It would be basically impossible to satisfy the user maps from the pre-HRP period.

The focus should be on remaining faithful to the original art and levels.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm with the Plagman camp on this stance.

[Micky C]

Plagman, on 07 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Honestly, I'd be fine with completely ignoring user maps for the purpose of the HRP, and make sure that the official episodes look as good as possible. Not sure how many people agree with that, however.

Well, looks like someone's gotta stand up for the user maps...

There is a LOT of effort put into the HRP obviously, and having that effort focused primarily on the original levels is only catering to 0.01% of the Duke maps out there. I agree that the original levels should look as good as possible, but let's not jump the gun and forget about user maps, a little bit of compromise should be strived for. As such I don't think the ash tray is a good idea, there's not the slightest hint of it in the original art, and as it's a fairly commonly used sprite, I think it'll be annoying seeing that ash tray left right and centre.

Plus, let's not forget about all the user maps that are specifically designed for the HRP. I've made 2 myself, not fantastic ones, but there are a lot of great user maps with the HRP, and a whole lot more that look good with it despite not being designed for it. Are we to ignore them? Once again, wasted effort focusing on the 0.01%. (Now don't shoot me for this but I think people play user maps a hell of a lot more than the original levels these days.)

[LeoD]

NUKEMDAVE, on 07 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

More and more people are wanting a "reloaded" Duke 3D anyway. Instead of people being upset about Reloaded being stalled, why not just make it happen in the best way possible via EDuke?

Hendricks266, on 07 January 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

It already exists; it's called Duke Plus. The maps don't have extra detail but the new smoke, gore, weather, etc show what can be done.

This. DukePlus/Eternity is as close as it gets to what I hoped for DNF to be. (Still needs an above-average PC.)

Plagman, on 07 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Honestly, I'd be fine with completely ignoring user maps for the purpose of the HRP, and make sure that the official episodes look as good as possible. Not sure how many people agree with that, however.

No surprise that I completely disagree. Without all those user maps the Duke3D community might be non-existent nowadays.

Mr.Flibble, on 07 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

If we wanted to make the HRP look good for user maps, we'd be in for a monumental, near impossible, task.

No. Once the user map maphack system is supported by EDuke32, it would be a big step forward already. Plus, I've started asking for user-map-only stuff and I'm answered.
There aren't that many non-episode sprites left which are really often used in user maps, so the task is far from being monumental. It's only big.

Mr.Flibble, on 07 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

There are thousands of published user maps out there and the more creative mappers used sprites and textures in ways that the original designers never intended them to be used. There are various sprites not used in the original maps (parts of animations) that are found as parts of user map architecture etc. It would be basically impossible to satisfy the user maps from the pre-HRP period.

The focus should be on remaining faithful to the original art and levels.

Hm, the last sentence contradicts the preceding paragraph IMO. Keeping textures and models faithful to the original is exactly what's needed to make the user maps look good in the HRP. Btw, the part-of-animation problem is what got me into starting all that UserMapHack stuff.

Micky C, on 08 January 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Well, looks like someone's gotta stand up for the user maps...

Thanks.

Micky C, on 08 January 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

[...] I think people play user maps a hell of a lot more than the original levels these days.)

Yup. Playing through the Episodes every now and then is fun, but there is so much stuff out there which is superior in so many ways - and looks damn good with the HRP.

[Hank]

LeoD, on 08 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Hm, the last sentence contradicts the preceding paragraph IMO. Keeping textures and models faithful to the original is exactly what's needed to make the user maps look good in the HRP. Btw, the part-of-animation problem is what got me into starting all that UserMapHack stuff.

Nailed this one.
Please guys, just keep faithful to the intent of the original Duke 3D game, and not what could be made look 'better'.

[Steveeeie]

Wow didn't realise I would spark so much of a debate.

I agree that the ashtray is not needed.

I added it losing track of what I was trying to achieve and stupidly only considered Hollywood Holocaust when I started working on the bin, so agreed it has to go.

My aim was to try and make the models a bit more realistic. by adding details to sprites that were a little too bland / cartoony.
but only in a way that was un-obtrusive and didn't effect how the user might perceive the asset.

for example the exit sign I did, has extra detail, but doesn't effect how the user sees it in game. its still an exit sign, where as the bin is now a bin/ashtray instead of just a plain old bin.

Again the addition of the ashtray was a bad call, sorry.

My only complaint here is a simple "would you mind losing the ashtray" would have sufficed.

Hendricks266, on 07 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Save reinterpretation and thematic change for Duke 3D: Reloaded.

I would rather you didn't compare my work to reloaded. I have no respect for that project at all.

I was working on DN:R but I left that project because it wasn't remotely duke 3d, but a totally different game.

I don't mean to be a sulky bitch here but I also feel comparing a users work to one of the most detested projects related to duke nukem EVER, is a little extreme when I'm dedicating my free time to giving the community some nice assets to use.

It was just one asset, if you don't like it ask it to be changed, I feel the above was an un-necessary insult, and not very encouraging.

Hendricks266, on 07 January 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Also, remember that the rubber can has a "kicked" dented-in frame. Is that present?

It hasn't been forgotten

[LeoD]

Steveeeie, on 08 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Wow didn't realise I would spark so much of a debate. [...]

No need to feel sorry for anything. Your contribution has been quite helpful in reviving this thread and HRP development.

Steveeeie, on 08 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

My only complaint here is a simple "would you mind losing the ashtray" would have sufficed.

Hm, don't think so (no offence), because some arguments need to be exchanged every now and then so that new members get an idea what's going on and which opinions people around here have.
Repo write access does not put me in a position to make decisions what's in and what's not on my own in a case like this.