[TON]

Why water doesn't have a 3d animation model?

[Mateos]

TON, on 21 July 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why water doesn't have a 3d animation model?

Do you know any game with this?

[Master Fibbles]

Technically, water in most games is a 3d model animating. Only to the extent that it has triangles. Usually they use fluid simulations but I suspect it is still a 3d model.

However, because of the limitations of BUILD, this would be impossible, or at least impractical. Sure, someone could make a plane water model to be used when the sprite is used but the difficulty and resource expense would not be made up for with the benefits. What would you use it for? Non TROR translucent water which is generally seen in older maps or maps not made for polymer.

[Fox]

 Steveeeie, on 21 July 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

The HRP is a fantastic community effort, and I think people would be wrong to hate it.

I personally feel the art style is inconsistent overall however.

I think it is also a case of people not being pleased with what they have, which might be the reason so many call for a remake in a more recent engine like UDK / Cryengine.

This is probable because we have almost pushed the art as far is it can go without modifying the levels.

The HRP is much better than Doomsday. And frankly Doom levels will never look good in highres because the maps are square, while Duke 3D levels still have some real-life sense.

The problem with the HRP is that it was focused in remake all the tiles, instead of taking care of the details. In other words it choose quantity over quality.

[TON]

 Mateos, on 21 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Do you know any game with this?

No, I've only seen the 3d animations models




http://www.turbosqui...on-model/647471

[NightFright]

 TON, on 21 July 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why water doesn't have a 3d animation model?

I think the EDuke32 guys are still working on a way to get hardcoded transparent water surfaces into the game. That's as far as it will probably go, but it looks really nice.

If you are referring to water fountains, well... I am not sure if 3D models would look convincing for those, but someone can always try, anyway.

[Mateos]

I was trying to see how apply a 3D model for water you could swim in and all, surfaces, that seemed impossible to me; Now I see it's about a fountain effect, well when you break toilets and else why not

[Fox]

 NightFright, on 21 July 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

I think the EDuke32 guys are still working on a way to get hardcoded transparent water surfaces into the game.

That wouldn't work very well. The authors of the original levels have not taken care so the bottom always matches the top.

[Steveeeie]

 Mr.Flibble, on 21 July 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Technically, water in most games is a 3d model animating. Only to the extent that it has triangles. Usually they use fluid simulations but I suspect it is still a 3d model.

Water effects like this are usually done with a physics system made up of a bunch of textured polygons, same with fire and smoke.

[Tea Monster]

One of the main points of pride in the HRP is that the Doom community had several 'upgrade' paths along the way, with Doom 3 and the Quake series. So their communities could foster 3D modding talent. People had tried to make Duke in other engines, but each time they did, 3DR would send them a a C&D order. So we started from basiclly just a sprite based game since 1996 up to one of the best model replacement packs out there. A lot of people got their start in modelling with the HRP (me as one) and it's great to see how some of the newer people have developed over time.

There are problems with the HRP, and maybe it would be benefited from being treated more like a 'proper' mod and have an art director who could oversee content and do some direction, but that's not happened and I don't see it occurring now. It's still a work in progress (will probably always be!) and it's improving all the time.

Everyone would like a new engine. That isn't anything against Plagman, but you would have to instigate a shit-ton of features to bring it up to the state of a modern engine. That isn't just the renderer, but things like particles, how maps are created, how to import meshes as geometry, reflections, optimization.... the list goes on. That is why everyone was so pissed when 2K/GBX refused to release the editor to DNF. It would be great to have a modern engine to create some great new Duke stories, but due to 3DR's legal stance, you were stuck with using Duke3D's source code or you were SOL. DNF, with all it's faults was the last real chance for modellers to get hold of a (comparatively) recent game engine.

Oh, here are the new Duke skins. Model coming soon, but there is nothing really different, I just got a bug with the weight painting on his belt buckle sorted out.
 Dukeskins11.zip (3.48MB)
Number of downloads: 187

[Mateos]

 Tea Monster, on 21 July 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

That is why everyone was so pissed when 2K/GBX refused to release the editor to DNF. It would be great to have a modern engine to create some great new Duke stories, but due to 3DR's legal stance, you were stuck with using Duke3D's source code or you were SOL. DNF, with all it's faults was the last real chance for modellers to get hold of a (comparatively) recent game engine.

Reloaded being an example, sadly :/

[Tea Monster]

 Mateos, on 21 July 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Reloaded being an example, sadly :/

Yep, even if the game was completely crap (not saying it would, but just as case example), it would have been a 'legal' way of making modern Duke mods.

[Steveeeie]

 NightFright, on 12 July 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

What's currently pending? Trying to get an overview since the end of July is approaching. As I have pointed out earlier, July 31 doesn't have to be the final deadline if you need more time for some stuff.

Are we in a rush to release something now? I understand this has been pushed back already, I have a few things I definitely want to get in before the release.

However I am on Holiday this week and wont be out of action for 2 weeks and probably need a couple of weeks to finish up my stuff.

The things I want to get in are:

Hydrant / Broken Hydrant 99%
toilet / broken toilet 50%
Urinal / Broken Urinal 90%
Fire Extinguisher 50%
Camera 99%
Paper Towel Holder 50%
Tp Holder 50%

[ForeverDuke]

Are you doing something with the water for the broken hydrant, too?

 Steveeeie, on 21 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Are we in a rush to release something now? I understand this has been pushed back already, I have a few things I definitely want to get in before the release.

However I am on Holiday this week and wont be out of action for 2 weeks and probably need a couple of weeks to finish up my stuff.

The things I want to get in are:

Hydrant / Broken Hydrant 99%
toilet / broken toilet 50%
Urinal / Broken Urinal 90%
Fire Extinguisher 50%
Camera 99%
Paper Towel Holder 50%
Tp Holder 50%

[Tea Monster]

Updated hand dryer. There was an error in the def file where the normal map wasn't displayed.
 1051_handdryer_2013-b.zip (757.02K)
Number of downloads: 180

[NightFright]

Duke skins and hand dryer updates added to SVN. Never too late for making it better! ^^

[Tea Monster]

You can do particles in a fountain with Blender and use little 'water droplet' models as particles, but I don't know what the polycount would be.
You'd have to get a series of frames that loop, and then export each frame as a separate MD3 and put them all together in NPherno's compiler.

[Steveeeie]

Doing the water droplets as models would be a waste of resources. Most modern games use groups of sprites to pull the effect off, but as transparant textures hide the geomatry behind in our engine it would look dreadfull. we also dont have distortion maps or cube maps.. We are not going to get realistic water without these all being in place.

[Fox]

Can't a model that simulates particles be made?

[Tea Monster]

You could do it with your fountain rendered onto planes, but it won't be anywhere near the same quality.

You could put an image of a splash onto planes and animate them with blenders particle system and then export that as an md3. That would work for fire as well but it would be a shite - ton of work. It would probably be easier to remake the game as a doom3 or UDK mod.

[Steveeeie]

Yeah, but even after doing that we would still have the same problems i highlighted earlier.

[Fox]

 Tea Monster, on 22 July 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

You could do it with your fountain rendered onto planes, but it won't be anywhere near the same quality.

You could put an image of a splash onto planes and animate them with blenders particle system and then export that as an md3. That would work for fire as well but it would be a shite - ton of work. It would probably be easier to remake the game as a doom3 or UDK mod.

What about a hack that add sprite-like particles to the vertices of a model?

[Tea Monster]

Theoretically that would work, but as Steveeeie says, you run into the alpha bug once you start stacking planes up. Remember as well that polymer isn't optimized, once you start adding particles geometry and level geometry, by the time you have anything useful you will be rocking a single digit frame rate.

Purely as a thought exercise, UDK or Doom 3? I would have just gone for UDK but D3 is open source and cross platform.

[Steveeeie]

 Tea Monster, on 22 July 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Theoretically that would work, but as Steveeeie says, you run into the alpha bug once you start stacking planes up. Remember as well that polymer isn't optimized, once you start adding particles geometry and level geometry, by the time you have anything useful you will be rocking a single digit frame rate.

Purely as a thought exercise, UDK or Doom 3? I would have just gone for UDK but D3 is open source and cross platform.

Hmm Doom is open source and you can do whatever with it but building anything with would take a shit tone of work.

Even thought UDK is closed, it has a much better engine and editing tools.

[Steveeeie]

 Fox, on 22 July 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Can't a model that simulates particles be made?

It would need hundreds of frames to simulate it properly ..

And like tea monster has said the game would probably grind.

[Tea Monster]

I know SFA about programming, but I was thinking that the people who WILL eventually start messing with it may thank me for that later. Also, as stated before, it's cross platform.
UKD is a far superior development system though and it's renderer is amazing.

[Steveeeie]

 Tea Monster, on 22 July 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I know SFA about programming, but I was thinking that the people who WILL eventually start messing with it may thank me for that later. Also, as stated before, it's cross platform.
UKD is a far superior development system though and it's renderer is amazing.

Same! appart from the staples html css and js.

So i can only speak from a non programer point of view and my preference would be UDK.

[LeoD]

 NightFright, on 21 July 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Duke skins and hand dryer updates added to SVN. Never too late for making it better! ^^

Indeed. Therefore I have replaced them with better PNGOUT compression.
It's suspicious that your 1051_handdryer_d.png and 1051_handdryer_s.png do not convert to the same TGA as Tea Monster's originals. There's a 'new' PNGOUT.EXE available at Ken Silverman's site (2013-02-20), which you might want to check out.

 Fox, on 21 July 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

The problem with the HRP is that it was focused in remake all the tiles, instead of taking care of the details. In other words it choose quantity over quality.

From a player's point of view I still appreciate that approach.

 Tea Monster, on 21 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Updated hand dryer.

User map related nitpick: rounded edges on models basing on rectangular sprites may lead to unpleasant 'holes' in 3-dimensional user map structures made out of sprites. In this case, however, the only affected map I know of discourages the use of the HRP anyway.

[TON]

 Steveeeie, on 21 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Are we in a rush to release something now? I understand this has been pushed back already, I have a few things I definitely want to get in before the release.

However I am on Holiday this week and wont be out of action for 2 weeks and probably need a couple of weeks to finish up my stuff.

The things I want to get in are:

Hydrant / Broken Hydrant 99%
toilet / broken toilet 50%
Urinal / Broken Urinal 90%
Fire Extinguisher 50%
Camera 99%
Paper Towel Holder 50%
Tp Holder 50%

I saw your Tp Holder model and it's perfect.
About the fire extinguisher it should be like this

[NightFright]

 Steveeeie, on 21 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Are we in a rush to release something now? I understand this has been pushed back already, I have a few things I definitely want to get in before the release.

However I am on Holiday this week and wont be out of action for 2 weeks and probably need a couple of weeks to finish up my stuff.
[...]

We don't have to push it, and if you still have so much stuff in the pipeline, it's probably worth waiting for. If no one has any considerable objections, I'd say we extend the deadline for now by at least 4 weeks, to August 31. The more we get into the HRP, the better. And who knows, maybe it gives some folks a little time to come up with some bonus additions.