[NUKEMDAVE]

I didn't remember that being visible, but I still don't see it as a big deal. You've got a new Duke model that's going to be wearing gloves and wearing his pants over his boots. Not to mention holding a shotgun instead of that weird, unknown gun.

[Night Wolf]

ReaperMan, on 27 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I clearly see an ash tray.

Yeah the ash tray is definitely there.

[Micky C]

NUKEMDAVE, on 27 February 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I didn't remember that being visible, but I still don't see it as a big deal. You've got a new Duke model that's going to be wearing gloves and wearing his pants over his boots. Not to mention holding a shotgun instead of that weird, unknown gun.

Remember, one of the benefits of the original art for mapping is that the detail is so low, that they could represent other things than what they were originally intended for. You might think of it only as a rubber can, however one day you might see it upside down, a different colour and it might be connected to other sprites to create a whole new object. The more details like the ash tray you add, the less uses the actual sprite has. More options is good. That's how mappers like Gambini can still create highly detailed and fresh environments like It Lives despite people using the same art for the last 15 years. Things like the strap on the fan though are mostly ok because it makes a bit of sense, it's not hugely obtrusive, and a fan is always going to be a fan.

You'd think everything would be done to death by now, however, having less details has lead to exponentially more variety.
Plus what Hendricks said about how if every sprite looks exactly the same with the same distinct details it just looks odd and breaks the atmosphere.

ReaperMan, on 27 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I clearly see an ash tray.

Me too, you've just got to squint and turn your head a little.

[Lunick]

ozz, on 28 February 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

Yeah the ash tray definitely there.

*image*

I want to see this used in a map now

[High Treason]

Don't worry, it's in the sequel to the awesome map Hendricks was working on, there's going to be a full episode now!

[Lunick]

OH MY GOODNESS, I think I finally worked out what everyone was working on in that thread.

[Night Wolf]

High Treason, on 28 February 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Don't worry, it's in the sequel to the awesome map Hendricks was working on, there's going to be a full episode now!

*Image*

Haha! The detail in that map is outstanding.

[Spiker]

In case Steveeie wants to make more props I propose a video camera or a scuba gear

[Tea Monster]

LeoD, on 27 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

This.

What I was saying was that I meant that sometimes being slavishly loyal to a 16 pixel by 16 pixel image created from a model back in 1996 is not the best way to go forward when making new models. Some things that look great as sprites translate badly to 3D.
IMHO, I would rather have a good looking model than something that doesn't look any good, but is more true to the sprite. Again, JMHO.

Just pointing out, these conversations that people are having about the models don't include the modellers.

[Steveeeie]

Spiker, on 28 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

In case Steveeie wants to make more props I propose a video camera or a scuba gear

Yeah the camera was definetly on my list to do!

Tea Monster, on 28 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

What I was saying was that I meant that sometimes being slavishly loyal to a 16 pixel by 16 pixel image created from a model back in 1996 is not the best way to go forward when making new models. Some things that look great as sprites translate badly to 3D.
IMHO, I would rather have a good looking model than something that doesn't look any good, but is more true to the sprite. Again, JMHO.

I agree with this.

I think it is quite apparent that there is a very mixed opinion on the type of improvements that are needed going forward.

For this reason I have decided not to continue contributing to the HRP as a project .

I will however be releasing my own alternative HRP or HRP add on pack.

I'm not sure if this will make me unpopular here with the locals, and I hope I'm not sounding like a spoilt child.
but it just seems like a logical move to me, we have one side of the table wanting one thing, and the other wanting something else.

[ReaperMan]

Steveeeie, on 28 February 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm not sure if this will make me unpopular here with the locals, and I hope I'm not sounding like a spoilt child.
but it just seems like a logical move to me, we have one side of the table wanting one thing, and the other wanting something else.

Doesn't seem to make much sense making two different HRPs.... how about you just keep making models for the HRP and ignore naysayers as long as most people like the models i don't think it will be a problem. I mean we got a new Duke model that has virtually no resemblance to the original sprite, yet almost everyone likes it.

[Mike Norvak]

Steveeeie, on 28 February 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Yeah the camera was definetly on my list to do!

I agree with this.

I think it is quite apparent that there is a very mixed opinion on the type of improvements that are needed going forward.

For this reason I have decided not to continue contributing to the HRP as a project .

I will however be releasing my own alternative HRP or HRP add on pack.

I'm not sure if this will make me unpopular here with the locals, and I hope I'm not sounding like a spoilt child.
but it just seems like a logical move to me, we have one side of the table wanting one thing, and the other wanting something else.

I don't want to be the devil's advocate, but I'd say go for it!. Do what you love. Your modelling skills (and time efficiency) are awesome, there's no time to spend pleasing everyone.
People still can use your assets in the HRP if they want (and if you accept)

[Steveeeie]

ReaperMan, on 28 February 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Doesn't seem to make much sense making two different HRPs.... how about you just keep making models for the HRP and ignore naysayers as long as most people like the models i don't think it will be a problem. I mean we got a new Duke model that has virtually no resemblance to the original sprite, yet almost everyone likes it.

I hear what your saying, but I don't think its really a case of ignoring the naysayers, everyone has personal tastes, and I don't think its fair on them to replace something they are contempt with to something they absolutely loath.

I don't think a second pack is a bad idea, I know it still wouldn't keep everyone happy, I also know any new pack will be hated by some people simply because its not the HRP. but nobody is saying they would have to use it.

I would be more willing to spend more time on it , If I could just make what I believe works out the best. nobody would be forced to download it, I'm not going to force it down peoples faces, I think there is a call for something that moves in a different direction, nobody wants to sacrifice what they believe is right, I just want to make something people who are like minded to myself are also happy with.

[Steveeeie]

Norvak, on 28 February 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I don't want to be the devil's advocate, but I'd say go for it!. Do what you love. Your modelling skills (and time efficiency) are awesome, there's no time to spend pleasing everyone.
People still can use your assets in the HRP if they want (and if you accept)

People can mix and match, but I don't think I will allow assets from a potential second pack to be mixed with the current pack for distribution, it would just ruin the integrity of a second pack.

[TON]

I came to vote new Steveeeie's model but there are bad news today
I hope it is resolved in the best possible way.

[Spiker]

It would be bad if Stevieeeie's models did not go to the main pack because they are really top quality 8 bit fanboys always find a way to demotivate artists from contributing I would say stick with the HRP, it would be better for us all. You're really doing awesome job.

[ReaperMan]

Spiker, on 28 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

It would be bad if Stevieeeie's models did not go to the main pack because they are really top quality 8 bit fanboys always find a way to demotivate artists from contributing I would say stick with the HRP, it would be better for us all. You're really doing awesome job.

^This guy right here is correct. HRP really isn't for 8 bit fan boys anyway.

[Plagman]

Steveeeie, on 28 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

People can mix and match, but I don't think I will allow assets from a potential second pack to be mixed with the current pack for distribution, it would just ruin the integrity of a second pack.

You had me until that; I implore you to reconsider. A lot of the current HRP is outdated, but there's also a ton of quality, next-gen ready content already in there. Discarding all that would be unfortunate..

Now, there's also legal ramifications. Re-making Duke3D assets technically infringes 3DR's copyright, and they kindly allowed an exception to be made for any content distributed under the HRP license. If you provide your own re-made content under a different license, you'll have to ask for separate permission from them or risk a C&D.

[Arwu]

yeah ! Im going to say it too: great models and should be placed in HRP official now ! . some people going to hate it, these people are always be and they are a little bunch comparing to rest... time are not going backwards, everything progress in this world. this is my 3 cents only...

[Mike Norvak]

Plagman, on 28 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Now, there's also legal ramifications. Re-making Duke3D assets technically infringes 3DR's copyright, and they kindly allowed an exception to be made for any content distributed under the HRP license. If you provide your own re-made content under a different license, you'll have to ask for separate permission from them or risk a C&D.

Another thing to take in account. Maybe the strongest point against made your own HR pack. On the other hand you can make your project secret and release it when finished (as other people) :X

Anyway, if you do so, are you just gonna remake the models or all the textures? That would be a lot of work for just one person, and maybe not feasible in the end. ( the texture stuff I mean)

--------------

For those (if so) who took my comment against HRP, I'm just saying that Steveeeie should do whatever he likes, however he likes. If at the end of the day he makes a change (that doesn't like) to a model just to fit some people's parameters, that wouldn't be a good movement imho.

There are indeed some great stuff in HRP, I do like it, it looks great when used suitably on a user map. But I don't like it on other maps where it doesn't fit,
HRP would be great on the next cases:

1] If the assets could resemble exactly the 8-bit art (which is impossible I think, and would need an Art Director or something like that) So no one could make interpretations just stick to the original art. No extra labels, no legible text, etc. It works on both the original and user levels.

2] If the HRP is a totally different thing, a Next Gen project with up-to-date models and textures more like a re imagined Duke Nukem 3D, the assets are specially created for the original levels (almost no User map or mod compatibility per-se) With a coherent style and color schemes (stick to the Duke's palette as someone already pointed) Something more like perhaps Steveeeie have in mind

The HRP right now is half-way between those two points. That's the reason there are still "a few" cof veteran cof experienced cof "8-Bit fan boys" cof mappers out there

[Fox]

Plagman, on 28 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Now, there's also legal ramifications. Re-making Duke3D assets technically infringes 3DR's copyright, and they kindly allowed an exception to be made for any content distributed under the HRP license. If you provide your own re-made content under a different license, you'll have to ask for separate permission from them or risk a C&D.

I think that doesn't apply to the HRP. It would be if it used parts of the original textures or sprites, but everything is made from the scratch, even if meant to remind the content from Duke 3D.

[Mark]

Providing there are no legal headaches for a seperate pack, I would very much like to see Steevie and other modelers "go for it" in creating high quality models with artistic freedom to veer away slightly from original looking. But I also would like to see some more model updates to the HRP following the close to original rule. In other words, I want my cake and to eat it too.

[Hendricks266]

Steeevie, please don't split off.

Quote

8 bit fanboys always find a way to demotivate artists from contributing

My words have been twisted. I acknowledged the unfortunate and unintended consequences of honest criticism in a previous post and asked that we all think about things with maturity. I'm not a "fanboy" but I do have a healthy appreciation for the original game we are all playing.

Norvak, on 28 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

1] If the assets could resemble exactly the 8-bit art (which is impossible I think, and would need an Art Director or something like that) So no one could make interpretations just stick to the original art. No extra labels, no legible text, etc. It works on both the original and user levels.

"No extra labels, no legible text" is quite a bit more extreme than where I stand.

All involved, please read my quote:

Hendricks266, on 27 February 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

If needed, I or we could write up some guidelines for how we want to balance accuracy to the original art with taking advantage of the extra artistic license offered to us by true color textures and the third dimension.

We can remain accurate to the original art while adding artistic innovations. It's just a matter of drawing the line. No, it's not "slavish".

A good example is the Blue Screen of Death which was added to one of the computer screen textures.

[Plagman]

Fox, on 28 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think that doesn't apply to the HRP. It would be if it used parts of the original textures or sprites, but everything is made from the scratch, even if meant to remind the content from Duke 3D.

No, that's not accurate. Both re-distributing modified ART and re-making the Duke3D assets from scratch are different forms of violation of their IP. They specifically forbid us from doing the former, and allowed the latter only when distributed under the HRP license, which restricts what you can do.

[Tea Monster]

Steveeeie, as has been pointed out before. The HRP has been a work in progress for many years. There is some stuff in there from before the renderer was upgraded, which frankly, just needs replacing.

On the flipside, if you look at the recent product of the wall texture artists, there is a wealth of really good work in there. Think before you chuck that out.

The other thing to consider is that for years, the HRP has been a 'one stop shop' for your enhanced Duke experience. It would be a shame to bring that to an end after all these years. In the Quake and Doom communities, they all look up to the HRP as what they would have wanted for their games. "Why can't we have for (insert name of classic shooter) what Duke Nukem has?"

We have to acknowledge that sometimes, following the look of the old sprites is not going to result in a good looking model. A lot of this stuff was designed and realised back in 1996 and a lot of time and technology has passed. I'm not saying that sprites are bad, or being true to the old game is somehow 'evil'. What I am saying is that a lot of modellers are not going to want to make a complete reproduction of the old game. They want to bring Duke into a more modern, up-to-date focus.

Creating next-gen assets takes a lot of time and effort. Why is an artist going to want to put something that looks 1. 15 years old, 2. exactly like someone else's work into their portfolio? I can tell you straight that you will struggle like heck to find anyone to fill that job description in the modelling community, no matter how much of a fan they are. A lot of what I've done recently is done with the mind-set of "What would 3D Realms have done with Duke, if they had Chuck Jones' concept art, but they had modern technology to make it with".

Some time ago, Duke Plus came along, to try and enhance the capabilities of the 'classic' Duke Nukem. Maybe, what we need to keep everyone happy, is to have an HRP Plus, which modernises the look of the game, but leaves the purists with how they want it to look.

[Tetsuo]

But then again purists would probably want 8-bit art with pixelation and everything. Which btw, running the HRP with nearest neighbor filtering goes against it being high res like it does opposite for it what filtering does for low res pixel art. It makes it look lower res than it really is.

[Spiker]

Has the final version of the fan been published? It's so much beter than the old one that I can't live without it being in the main pack. It would be good to have 2d pictures of it too

[Tea Monster]

That fan is kinda sexy. Waiting for the C9 and the hydrant.

[Night Wolf]

Would it be at all possible to create an actual model for the cinema neon sign, or would that be too many polygons?

[Steveeeie]

Spiker, on 01 March 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Has the final version of the fan been published? It's so much beter than the old one that I can't live without it being in the main pack. It would be good to have 2d pictures of it too

There are still a few issues with the fan that I am trying to smooth out.

Tea Monster, on 01 March 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

That fan is kinda sexy. Waiting for the C9 and the hydrant.

ozz, on 01 March 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Would it be at all possible to create an actual model for the cinema neon sign, or would that be too many polygons?

Depends how much detail we put in to it, I'm starting to worry about the poly limit, My models are fairly high poly, compared to the current assets, but not compared to assets from next gen games.

I'm a bit worried the engine will choke eventually.


On a different note, I have decided I will probably be releasing a series of pack add-ons for the HRP named something like the "HRP Plus" as suggested by tea monster.

They will start with small packs, and I will eventually merge them into one pack.

I am now happy for items from the packs to be merged into the main HRP, as long as the pack names are listed in the HRP Read Me like so:

----------------------------------------------------
Included Plus Packs ( By Steveeeie)
----------------------------------------------------
Health Pack Plus - FULL PACK
Some other pack Plus - PARTIAL PACK [DOWNLOAD LINK TO FULL PACK]

I hope this is acceptable, I would also like a separate pinned thread for my work if this is possible?