[Lunick]

Poor Black Mesa

[rasmus thorup]

DeeperThought, on 03 September 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

That's like saying that doing a remake of an old movie is easy because "the movie already exists". There's still lots of stuff to plan and to make.

That's right. But Spirrwell still has a point.

[Spirrwell]

DeeperThought, on 03 September 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

That's like saying that doing a remake of an old movie is easy because "the movie already exists". There's still lots of stuff to plan and to make.

I'm talking about not having to plan the story, levels, and etc as much, there's other stuff that needs to be done, but the concept is already there, it's already been done, mostly all that needs to be done is putting it all together. Remaking a movie is a different type of process, you've got to get new actors, you have to rewrite the story, then you have to factor in the money it's going to take for equipment, actors, and etc. Many of the editing programs out there would also cost a lot of money, since many movies use CG effects, actually I can't think of newer movies that don't use CG effects, but I said many for the chance that there is.

We already have the game engine, we have people that are willing to work on this game without pay, we already have the concept, we have good model editors that are free. What's left to do is create the assets and piece it all together. Not to say there isn't a lot of complexity involved with that, such as game physics, and the work that goes into it in general, but the tools and concept are already there.

[Mad Max RW]

Spirrwell, on 03 September 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

I'm talking about not having to plan the story, levels, and etc as much, there's other stuff that needs to be done, but the concept is already there, it's already been done, mostly all that needs to be done is putting it all together. Remaking a movie is a different type of process, you've got to get new actors, you have to rewrite the story, then you have to factor in the money it's going to take for equipment, actors, and etc. Many of the editing programs out there would also cost a lot of money, since many movies use CG effects, actually I can't think of newer movies that don't use CG effects, but I said many for the chance that there is.

We already have the game engine, we have people that are willing to work on this game without pay, we already have the concept, we have good model editors that are free. What's left to do is create the assets and piece it all together. Not to say there isn't a lot of complexity involved with that, such as game physics, and the work that goes into it in general, but the tools and concept are already there.

Forget it. According to some people just changing DNF's health system is too huge of a task.

[Tetsuo]

Then again you may have all the concept, good model editors that are free, people willing to work on the game without pay and even early work etc. but those are easy things to get and the hard part is executing it and following it through to completion.... which isn't trivial. Many projects like that stumble and fall on that. Also even if you have volunteers they have to factor in the personal costs it takes to work on a project like time taken away from other possibly paying projects and money invested in equipment to work on the project, etc.

[Spirrwell]

Mad Max RW, on 03 September 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

Forget it. According to some people just changing DNF's health system is too huge of a task.

After fourteen years the game finally gets released and people bitch about it... So what's the point in doing something that does take a bit of work if people will still bitch about it anyway, since it's not like they're going to make more money off of it like they could DLC... I bet that after I say this they'll release a mod for that in DLC that has to be paid for X_X

Tetsuo, on 03 September 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

Then again you may have all the concept, good model editors that are free, people willing to work on the game without pay and even early work etc. but those are easy things to get and the hard part is executing it and following it through to completion.... which isn't trivial. Many projects like that stumble and fall on that. Also even if you have volunteers they have to factor in the personal costs it takes to work on a project like time taken away from other possibly paying projects and money invested in equipment to work on the project, etc.

Imagine if you tried to execute it all with no plan at all.

[Frederik Schreiber]

I just want to clear things up a bit.

Reloaded is NOT a remake.
eDuke32, and the HRP does a great job, if you want to play Duke Nukem 3D, with sharp textures in high resolution.

We have addressed this multiple times.

But we do build the game around the core values of Duke Nukem 3D.
Healthpacks, no regenerating health, open multi path levels, etc.

We are also doing our own thing with the game.
We want to do something different, yet familiar.
Thats why we went with a darker, rougher and more realistic tone in the game.

We want the first encounter with a Pig Cop to be scary - Not goofy.
We want the levels to be open, and challenging.
We want the enemies to be intelligent, and frightening.
And the list goes on.

We are far in development with the product, and i am confident that you won't be disappointed.

This is an original title - If you expect it to be a direct remake of Duke Nukem 3D, that is not what you are going to get.

We have addressed this since the beginning on both our forums, website and FAQ.

There will be no Stealh, Ironsights, Regen. Shield/Health, etc. in Reloaded.
All the classic weapons, items and pickups will be available and work the way you'll expect.

Hope this cleared up a few things.

[rasmus thorup]

That's all very cool. But isn't that like taking a game already made and sell it again. I know that's not true, it just feels like it when you hear it. I think it's gonna be great.
And don't forget to thank to thank those working on their own project, not just the eduke and HRP. What keeps duke3d alive is peoples passion in the game.
Thank you.

[Spirrwell]

fresch, on 03 September 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

I just want to clear things up a bit.

Reloaded is NOT a remake.
eDuke32, and the HRP does a great job, if you want to play Duke Nukem 3D, with sharp textures in high resolution.

We have addressed this multiple times.

But we do build the game around the core values of Duke Nukem 3D.
Healthpacks, no regenerating health, open multi path levels, etc.

We are also doing our own thing with the game.
We want to do something different, yet familiar.
Thats why we went with a darker, rougher and more realistic tone in the game.

We want the first encounter with a Pig Cop to be scary - Not goofy.
We want the levels to be open, and challenging.
We want the enemies to be intelligent, and frightening.
And the list goes on.

We are far in development with the product, and i am confident that you won't be disappointed.

This is an original title - If you expect it to be a direct remake of Duke Nukem 3D, that is not what you are going to get.

We have addressed this since the beginning on both our forums, website and FAQ.

There will be no Stealh, Ironsights, Regen. Shield/Health, etc. in Reloaded.
All the classic weapons, items and pickups will be available and work the way you'll expect.

Hope this cleared up a few things.

Heh, I saw this coming. We know, we've heard this over and over. Revising the game as if it were made today while keeping the original core of what makes Duke Nukem... Duke Nukem. What people are worried about is that this won't be the case that we don't know much about you or other developers, and we have no idea if you're keeping truth to the end point, or if you're embellishing it just even a little.

You're going to get criticism from everybody, you're going to have doubts from everybody, so don't worry about us so much as the actual game. The result is what matters, in this case, the result will be the game. I'm not suggesting to plainly ignore us which I'm sure some might interpret what I said as that, I'm just saying, prove us all the wrong, prove to us the game is polished, new, and still Duke Nukem. Which I know isn't possible now, but from what I'm seeing in your words, from Gearbox, and everybody else, it won't be too long.

[Hank]

fresch, on 03 September 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

We have addressed this multiple times.
and so on ....

That's why I think you guys should go under cover. Yes, it's not nice to hear, but unless there is something concrete to judge you guys with, it may be as Spirrwell wrote, most everyone will be on your case. Me included. I'm not above such things as having an opinion.

[Tetsuo]

To be honest I don't think doubts are unfounded considering all the remake\redo\TC\whatever you want to call them pop up and then die, fail to deliver or go into indefinite dev hell for one reason or another. This even happens with commercially created game projects and most of those we never even hear about but more so with fan based\free projects. I hate to say this but it isn't our job to kiss up to them when they make promises to us nor are we under any obligation to them. On the flipside they aren't under any obligation to us to deliver.

I would heartily agree with what matters in the end are the results, though.

[Danukem]

Hank, on 03 September 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

That's why I think you guys should go under cover. Yes, it's not nice to hear, but unless there is something concrete to judge you guys with, it may be as Spirrwell wrote, most everyone will be on your case. Me included. I'm not above such things as having an opinion.

I disagree. I haven't read the FAQ and I don't look at their website, so most of what I know about the project is from what I hear at Duke4.net. It's useful and reassuring to me to hear straight from the developers, and I'm sure that most others here feel the same. Also, it means that we are now armed with correct (or at least direct ) information, so that if someone misrepresents the project in the future and the developers aren't around, we can point out the misrepresentation. In general, communication is almost always a good thing, and especially in this community which has been frustrated by long waiting followed by disappointment. If people don't hear about how a project is going, they assume the worst, based on past experiences.

[OpenMaw]

Hank, on 03 September 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

most everyone will be on your case. Me included. I'm not above such things as having an opinion.

Indeed.

Spirrwell, on 03 September 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

After fourteen years the game finally gets released and people bitch about it...

Because, to quote AVGN "It fucking sucks!" Just because after "fourteen years the game finally gets released" that's not enough. Before anyone says it, It's not about being grateful either. Its about: we paid money for a game, after waiting this long, and the game suffers from really stupid game design choices, and doesn't live up to even half of the promises made over the years about it's "insane interactivity." The game doesn't even match a game that is 15 years old!!

[Tetsuo]

Speaking of comparing DNF to Duke3D*. Has anyone done a list of everything interactive in DNF and then compared it to a list of everything interactive in Duke3D (the addons like DukePlus don't count I'm talking what shipped in the game). Such as vending machines listing how many of them in Duke3D you could interact with and get stuff out of that you can use versus how many vending machines you could do the same thing with in Duke3D? That way one could have a base for comparing the level of interactivity in the two. In my opinion sure it didn't live up to people's expectations but it still has a lot more stuff in it to interact with than Duke3D did.

*Not bashing Duke3D... it's one of my favorite games just wondering.

[OpenMaw]

Tetsuo, on 03 September 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

Speaking of comparing DNF to Duke3D*. Has anyone done a list of everything interactive in DNF and then compared it to a list of everything interactive in Duke3D (the addons like DukePlus don't count I'm talking what shipped in the game). Such as vending machines listing how many of them in Duke3D you could interact with and get stuff out of that you can use versus how many vending machines you could do the same thing with in Duke3D? That way one could have a base for comparing the level of interactivity in the two. In my opinion sure it didn't live up to people's expectations but it still has a lot more stuff in it to interact with than Duke3D did.

*Not bashing Duke3D... it's one of my favorite games just wondering.

Oh yeah, you can interact with soda machines and cigar machines...

...Oooh, ahhh...

[Fox]

The problem of DNF interactions was the limitations. Part of the fun in Duke 3D is that you snooker in middle of the monster with roughly the same commands you use in normal gamplay.

In DNF you will be nowhere close of monsters, but confined in a casino or anything with a bunch of retarded guys around. Then you must press "play", so the camera and your movements all are locked in the minigame with a retarded in the other side saying shit.

If they plan to do something cool in Reloaded, they should let you take spray can and write shit on the city walls or intoxicate the rookers on the street. This kind of interactive that is fun.

[Tetsuo]

After reading through that post a couple of times I think I deciphered it into english. The "snooker" as you put it worked pretty much the same in DNF as in Duke3D to be honest. So did the basketball hoops and the whack an mole game, microwaves and tons of other things I haven't listed. But yeah stuff like the pinball and the gambling machines had you go into a "locked" mode where you are using their interface exclusively... so did other games like Prey, Doom 3 and other games that have in game UI's though. In Duke3D the security monitors worked kind of like that except if you held down back or jumped you backed out of them but they where a special mode you went into and took over full screen. You couldn't have "retarded guys on the other side saying shit" because there was hardly any voice acting or NPCs in Duke3D apart from sound bites and one liners.

So again, DNF as flawed as it is still had more things to interact with than Duke3D did. That doesn't make it a better game but yeah.

As for getting Hookers intoxicated... Duke isn't GTA and Duke isn't a thug.

[----]

Fox, on 03 September 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

The problem of DNF interactions was the limitations. Part of the fun in Duke 3D is that you snooker in middle of the monster with roughly the same commands you use in normal gamplay.

In DNF you will be nowhere close of monsters, but confined in a casino or anything with a bunch of retarded guys around. Then you must press "play", so the camera and your movements all are locked in the minigame with a retarded in the other side saying shit.

I was going to adress exactly this. The interactivity in DNF was seperated from the rest of the game. All the interactive stuff was basically put into the dream sequence or into the fitness room.

I don't think that being "locked" to the interactive games was a a problem. You can't have a full pinball machine including tilting without being locked to the machine.

IMHO the problem was that you had a shooting game without interactivity ... and then in the breaks you can go to special areas where all the interactive stuff is. The slot machines in the Casino are the exceptio here.
In DN3D the pool table was in the bar where it belongs and you can play pool there right between a few firefights or even during them. In DNF you had special areas or levels which made the interactivity seem forced. Yes, I liked the RC car and the obstacle course to get the battery for the reactor. But who the hell puts the battery into a closed room next to the main generator so that you cannot get the battery at all ... unless you clear the obstacle course with a RC car which was also built directly next to the generator room. The RC car should have been in a place that made more sense (as it was in SHadow Wariior for example).

If all the intercative games in DNF had been spread out through the game and placed in better locations it would have bothered people less, IMHO.

And an idea of mine for a more "special" interactivity for the Airhockey would have been that it is in in a destroyed building in vegas when you fight alongside some EDF soldiers. You go inside and find the Devestator. When you pick it up an EDF soldier complains why it is always you who gets the cool weapons. That would have been all if you continued playing normally.
But if you used the AIrhockey next to the Devestator within for example 30 seconds after the EDF soldier's comment he says: "Oh, you want a match for the Devestator, nice". If you lose you give the Devestator to the soldier.

All other intercativity should have been more embedded in thr normal levels to not feel so forced and to make the world more alive.

Just my opinion.

[Fox]

I also think Duke 3D interactivity was also very trivial. Mostly because the objects with special effects were placed as decorations in the maps.

DNF on the other has tons of interactive objects in a very rare occasions and the rest of the game had mostly anything. Besides some "interactive" objects are actually part of annoying puzzle solving (i.e. extinctors). Then again we are back to the problem of the linear gaming of DNF.

[----]

Fox, on 03 September 2011 - 11:55 PM, said:

...because the objects with special effects were placed as decorations in the maps.

Yes, and exactly this made it so cool. It wasn't like showing off so much in a way: "Stop, playing the game, look, what cool stuff we have here in this room". It was understatement at it's best. The things were just there and nobody made a big fuzz about it, which made it even more impressive in the end.


Another thing I liked better in DN3D is the tone of the references. In DNF some references to other games might come across as looking down upon the games. That wasn't the case in DN3D.

DNF: "Power Armor is for Pussies" (implying that the Master Chief is a Pussy)
DN3D: "Hmm, that's one doomed Space Marine." (It is nothing like: "Oh, that weak pussy marine got killed. I can do better")

Yes, Duke says that he isn't afraid of no Quakes. But that still doesn't sound like looking down onto an inferior game, it is more like DN3D is awesome in it's own way and don't need to fear another great product.

[Tetsuo]

He did have one line similar to "that's one doomed space marine" though which wasn't looking down upon other games.. "That's one dead space marine"
Yeah I never said or insinuated that DNF was flawless or that interactive portions where put in the best places. Just that there seemed to be more of them. I even discovered things like paper airplanes, cigars, etc.

You have to admit that most of the "interactivity" stuff in Duke3D was basic though. I mean most of the stuff there apart from the pool table was just a switch that activated a sound effect or a sector effect like the San Andreas Fault thing. 3D Realms games didn't even have RC cars for example until Shadow Warrior which that one part in DNF reminded me of. I've been playing Duke3D since 1996 and I still recognize this.

To be honest even I would have liked DNF better if they would have made it more open world so even if the pool table wasn't in the middle of the battle areas for example you could leave them and go revisit the strip club or wherever anytime you want. So you aren't just stuck to only being able to do those things at the designated times in the linear progression of the game. I mean, in some of the trailers it showed you walking up to the exterior of certain places like that and they originally seemed to say Las Vegas was going to be this huge place you can explore.

Some of those things like an EDF soldier challenging duke to get the better weapon over a game of air hockey sounds like a pretty good idea too though.

[----]

My post wasn't directed so much at you, Tetsuo. I was more pointing out what I think was the difference in how the interactive stuff was implemented.

Of course technology has come a long way since DN3D and you can make awesome stuff nowadays. That's why I think the interactivity should have been better implemented in DNF. Not so much in seperate locations or as a necessary puzzle but optionally and in the environments you fight in.
Of course there is much more interactivity in DNF ... but it felt useless and separated from the game. In a modern game the interactivity should have more use.

One example:
You had the fires in DNF that could be extinguished with the fire extinguisher ... but the extinguishers were always next the fire. You shoot them and then you can continue your linear path. I wouldn't even call that interactivity. It is like pushing a button that opens a door ... just with a different animation.
In a non linear game the fire would block the way to some bonus or extras (weapon, health, big boobed girl, whatever...). But you can walk to the fire station at the other side of the level, pick up the extinguisher and use it on the fire to get to the extra or even clear a second path into some area to have an easier approach on the enemies in that area.

There are so many possibilities.

A totally silly idea (maybe too silly even for DNF) would be a wall with cracks in it ... you don't have any weapons (for whatever reason) but put the vibrator into the crack. The vibration slowly makes the cracks in the wall grow until the wall collapses.
Yes I know ... stupid. My point is that these things can be fun if they are used to reach secret areas or give you some more advantages but aren't needed for completing the levels ... it is not a point and stick adventure.

[Micky C]

Can you actually interact with the strippers in DNF? I tried pressing E on all of them but nothing would ever happen.

[----]

Micky C, on 04 September 2011 - 02:12 AM, said:

Can you actually interact with the strippers in DNF? I tried pressing E on all of them but nothing would ever happen.

If it didn't show an icon in the middle of the screen and some text below it revealing the interaction before it takes place and thus ruining the experience that way ... no.

[Micky C]

Why the hell can't we interact with the strippers?!? It was one of the fundamental things you could do in Duke 3D! I didn't expect it have x1000 times the interactivity, but I expected it to at least be on the same level. At least...
The closest thing we have is the babes in 'my digs' and they don't do anything overly suggestive.

Would it really have been too much trouble to make it so that the strippers face Duke and do a little shake? It's like Duke doesn't even exist as far as they're concerned, which is very un-Dukelike, and very uncool.

[Oook]

Micky C, on 04 September 2011 - 02:12 AM, said:

Can you actually interact with the strippers in DNF? I tried pressing E on all of them but nothing would ever happen.

Yes, but just with the dancing girl. There's a moment when she approaches to the guys, at the bottom of the platform, then you can interact with her.

[Mike Norvak]

fuegerstef, on 02 September 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Ok, to avoid the latter, Reloaded could be made a bit different in gameplay to not be the same as eDuke32 with better graphics ... but then it suddenly is all stuff that doesn't belong in a Duke game... so Reloaded will be changed to be exactly the same as DN3D ... but then it will be the same as eDuke32 too ... hmm, to avoid that we could make it different ... but then it isn't a real Duke game anymore ... so it could be made the same as eDuke32 ... but then it might interfere...

Ok, I stop here with the only solution: Don't make a remake ever anyways ... I will tell Gearbox and Interceptor to stop the project and scrap the license. Reaper should be happy then.

EDIT:
Just posted that to show why we sometimes can't care about everybody ... whatever you do ... it is wrong to some months before they have seen, played or experienced it at all. No offense taken, no offense sent.

Just do what you must do, we don't want another DNFailever just to "not interfere with EDuke32" or eDuke32 how you call it, if Reloaded is gonna replace something (that I don't think) things change anyway so we must adapt, (with adapt I mean playing DNR while still playing and modding with eduke without any problem lol)

[----]

Norvak, on 04 September 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

Just do what you must do, we don't want another DNFailever just to "not interfere with EDuke32" or eDuke32 how you call it, if Reloaded is gonna replace something (that I don't think) things change anyway so we must adapt, (with adapt I mean playing DNR while still playing and modding with eduke without any problem lol)

Why do so Duke4ers* always sound like the DNR team does not play EDuke32 and always differ between "us and "them"? Hmmm...




*) yes, used it here on purpose ... usually I would say "Duke Community" which includes all of us. But this is the only place I find this "us vs. them" attitude ... of course not by all. I, for example, am a fan of EDuke32 (including the HRP and DukePlus), DNR and the Duke 98 Community game ... or at least wish all turn out great and get further improved. I am getting a bit tired of that immature us vs them.

[Mike Norvak]

fuegerstef, on 04 September 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Why do so Duke4ers* always sound like the DNR team does not play EDuke32 and always differ between "us and "them"? Hmmm...

Damn, he called me Duke4er!!! nooooo!!

I do understand there isn't a line beetween DNR developers and EDuke modders/developers, but even in the Duke3D comunity there're many different points of view and "sectors" you know, someone loves 8 bit classic style,others likes HRP, hates/loves Polymer, etc. So should not surprise you that will always be a kind of "us and them" bias on any project.

[Mad Max RW]

There is a slight difference when you are granted an official license from Gearbox and have to go through them to release anything. Like it or not it sets you apart from the rest of the community.