[Hank]

Jeff, on 14 January 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's just silly that Gearbox finds every way to shut us out of trying to have any freedom in this game. In terms of mods or whatever.

Gearbox will not change their business model, and after the fresh fiasco, it is save to assume: If you are a modder or game developer, move elsewhere.

[Jeff]

Hank, on 14 January 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Gearbox will not change their business model, and after the fresh fiasco, it is save to assume: If you are a modder or game developer, move elsewhere.

Wasn't it 2K's decision not to release the mod tools?

[Bloodshot]

Whether 2K or GBX's decision to not release them, it doesn't matter. Still the same end result, and GBX will probably still stay with 2K for a long time so...yeah.

It just hit me today (not sure why it didn't before) that this is probably the worst thing to happen to duke fans. I mean, The only other Duke FPS has no editor, we aren't allowed to recreate anything related to Duke unless its just a level on other engines, so the only real option is Duke3D and Eduke32.

While the stuff for Duke3D is great, where are our options for moving forward? Quake and Doom fans got those options - Far Cry/Crysis fans got those options, Unreal and UT fans got them, and a ton of other games did too.

Duke was going to get those things, with DNF until GBX and 2K got it, and even after that DN3DR could've been it - but now they are on hold indefinitely, and I honestly doubt they will be allowed to release their stuff if they ever finish.

But Duke? He's only officially got what he had 14+ years ago. Eduke our alternative of course, but it still looks, feels, and plays like Duke3D - Even if DNF did suck, if it had mod tools at least we would have another Duke to work with, with different gameplay and modern tech. Sure the game mechanics might not be as good as D3D, but at least it would be fresh, and modders could make it better, while still keeping the game different from Duke3D.

IDK, maybe I'm nitpicking, or being a flat out idiot, but I would have liked to see something new that's Duke, but also isn't Duke 3D - that could last with the community. (DNF could've been that game, even if people didn't like it god knows it sold a lot)

The only real hope I can see is maybe the guy working on Eduke32 makes his engine into something that is equal to a modern game engine, or if DN3DR ever picks up again.

Maybe I'm just blowing this up a bit much in my mind though

[Micky C]

There's more than one person working on eduke32, and considering that the latest renderer makes it look a lot like a modern game, especially when the content is designed for it, and we have a new feature that essentially allows us to break the limits and make 3D levels, eduke32 isn't too far off from a modern engine these days.

If you haven't done so already, look into "Duke Nukem Eternity", or even the HRP 5 on youtube if you haven't seen that yet.

[Jeff]

Micky C, on 17 January 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

There's more than one person working on eduke32, and considering that the latest renderer makes it look a lot like a modern game, especially when the content is designed for it, and we have a new feature that essentially allows us to break the limits and make 3D levels, eduke32 isn't too far off from a modern engine these days.

If you haven't done so already, look into "Duke Nukem Eternity", or even the HRP 5 on youtube if you haven't seen that yet.

With these advancements you're making, would it be possible to turn Duke3D from a 1996 game into something that was made in say 2007 or so? I don't know much about this whole modding thing, so I hope you don't mind my question if it sounds a bit weird or off.

[Bloodshot]

The engine definitely is good, but I've never really been a fan of the HRP. Imo, the weapons just don't have the same "kick" that the sprite animations do, and a lot of it looks awkward. I can't fault anyone for that really, that's just the style it is.

Is it possible to map for Duke3D with Eduke in the same way you would for a true 3D engine? Or is it still sector-based mapping with tricks employed for 3D world geometry?

[Jimmy]

Micky C is somewhat right. While the engine is TONS more powerful, it's not quite to modern standards, but a clever modder can create a very convincing facade. It'll look relatively the same on a physical level, but is less so on the technical level. It'd take a lot of work, you can emulate a brush based system by modeling whole chunks of levels and then importing them to the game. I wouldn't count on seeing it though, that sounds like a huge undertaking.

[Tea Monster]

Visually it will resemble a modern game, especially if you use models for 'brushes' and do some skillfull designing involving TROR. What we don't have is a physics engine or particles for fire and smoke. DT did a sort of particle system for Duke Plus, but I don't know how far you could push it to resemble water spray or fire. Ragdoll physics you could model (or bake out of a 3D app), but again, it's a pain, and would have to be all pre-rendered.

Sadly, the amount of hate for the HRP on the forums has dissuaded several people from experimenting with stuff like this due to the negativity on the forum towards anything that isn't sprite and sector based.

I'm thinking that if you were very careful about how you did it, you could create something that looked like DNF in terms of visual quality.

[Jeff]

Tea Monster, on 19 January 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Sadly, the amount of hate for the HRP on the forums has dissuaded several people from experimenting with stuff like this due to the negativity on the forum towards anything that isn't sprite and sector based.

I really enjoy playing Duke with the HRP + Polymer. I guess I might be in the minority though.

[thatguy]

I think there is a better chance just focusing on eDuke Polymer or using the latest UDK....though the UDK mod would be greatly appreciated.

[Bloodshot]

You just got me thinking (since that guy whos name currently escapes me was able to extract models from DNF) What if we ported all the DNF stuff into the UDK, and (somehow) got as much as we could functioning similar, gameplay wise and stuff? It would require a team of people of course, but that could be an alternative

READ THIS FIRST:

Before saying it's not legal or will get shut down blah blah - what if it was made so that you NEEDED to own a copy of DNF for it to work? Like maybe it will check the install directory and copy files over from it, instead of distributing them or something like that? Or anything that ensures that you must have DNF or you can't use the tools. Wouldn't that technically be ok?

(It would still be a huge undertaking though)

[Micky C]

DNF is old news. What you're proposing is still a very large amount of work, and people around here would rather focus on new content and ideas rather than trying to remake a failure of a game.

[thatguy]

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't DNF use an older UE3? Anyways, I'm not going to help out on it if it happens, its suicidal.

[Tea Monster]

Ditto.

What Bloodshot is proposing is technically possible - you could rip all the assets (probably illegal) and put them into UDK, but then you would have a load of game assets sat in a blank level. There is the engine, but that isn't a game. You'd have to get a coder (probably a team of them) to re-write all the monsters, effects, shaders and prop behaviours in the game. Waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much work.

If you really want to mod DNF - and there are some reasons for this - you would be much better off nagging Rich Whitehouse to release his DNF model exporter. Even then, I don't think there is a known way of getting DNF maps read into the standard editor. It's probably possible to do, but you'd have to dig up someone who is willing to put in the time and effort. Even then, there is no way currently in DNF to load user maps.

Working with DNF would be nice as you are working with a somewhat more modern engine, and you have working (well, sort of) net code, but I'm thinking that generally, people are better off going with eDuke32.

[Micky C]

Yeah, I keep forgetting the engine is also pretty bad by 2011 standards let alone 2012. I'd hate to think of load times if people try using larger texture sizes and higher poly models *shudder*.

@ s.b.Newsom, the engine is a very heavily modded Unreal Engine 2, possibly 2.5. But many aspects of the engine were rewritten several times. I've heard people say that the DNF engine is to the Unreal engine what the Source engine is to the Quake engine.

[thatguy]

BTW why does the OP want Gearbox or 2k to go bankrupt? Everything is 3d Realms fault, not the nice people that actually picked the game up and release it. Better embarrassing 3d Realms instead of making them seem like there game was complete Gold.

@Micky: That explains why the lighting system still doesn't surpass Source, especially since Quake had a better foundation for lighting than unreal. Judging based on Unreal 1 to 2.5. Not great engines in my opinion. Didn't age well at all.

[Ronin]

Jeff, on 19 January 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I really enjoy playing Duke with the HRP + Polymer. I guess I might be in the minority though.

I like it too, but I think you need a powerfull pc to get the most out of it so not everyone can appreciate how good it runs, my only gripe is how clunky the enemys move it looks better in sprites because the movements were made for sprites I guess.

[thatguy]

Yes, it was all Gearbox's fault that DNF did so badly. *rolls eyes*

[Ronin]

s.b.Newsom, on 20 January 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Yes, it was all Gearbox's fault that DNF did so badly. *rolls eyes*

They are responcible for many of the flaws, they released it so at the end of the day they are to blame for its problems. Yes the reviews were unfair but some of them made valid points. And they are definatly responcible for the broken Xbox port which should never have been sold to people.

[thatguy]

Ripemanewone, on 20 January 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

They are responcible for many of the flaws, they released it so at the end of the day they are to blame for its problems. Yes the reviews were unfair but some of them made valid points. And they are definatly responcible for the broken Xbox port which should never have been sold to people.

Its like blaming Rockstar for any problems with LA Noire which was developed by Team Bondi. What Gearbox pretty much did was publish the product from 3d Realms.

[Bloodshot]

I personally would've been okay if DNF was delayed again if it meant they could improve the gunplay (make enemies actually react to getting shot, and fix the weapons so half of them don't feel like pea shooters), rearrange puzzles and add more shooting to make better pacing,etc. and overall just give us a better, more "finished" product.

Ah well, at least Duke3D is a great game with Duke in it.

Is TDWCM any good at least? I saw an impressions thread but it had a bunch of spoilers.

[Tea Monster]

I think that now, looking back, that we all would have. But back then, I assure you it would have been a different matter.

[thatguy]

Bloodshot, on 20 January 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

I personally would've been okay if DNF was delayed again if it meant they could improve the gunplay (make enemies actually react to getting shot, and fix the weapons so half of them don't feel like pea shooters), rearrange puzzles and add more shooting to make better pacing,etc. and overall just give us a better, more "finished" product.

Ah well, at least Duke3D is a great game with Duke in it.

Is TDWCM any good at least? I saw an impressions thread but it had a bunch of spoilers.

I know i'm going to get voted down because people don't like hearing the truth. Do you realize how much more money it would cost to do such a thing? They acquired the rights because the company went under. You should be happy it was Gearbox and no other. The point was to buy the rights, release the game, and then relax so they can focus on making a better Duke game than trying to polish a POS. Think about it, they would have had to scrapped the story and redo all the levels, plus change a lot of the gaming mechanics. That would cost WAY to much.

Its like some people think 3d Realms is great, but guess what? They are great, but somehow it went downhill when they worked on DNF. They went under and the product we got was exactly the sort of game they spent so long working on. Two to Three more reasons of a delay would do nothing more than be a waste of money.

[sheridanm962]

For me I think it looks good under the source engine

[thatguy]

sheridanm962, on 20 January 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

For me I think it looks good under the source engine

Sadly Duke was all about innovation, and right now the source engine doesn't push that much in terms of graphics since it doens't offer a lot of the Direct X 11 capabilities.....omg Duke Nukem 4 (not DNF) would look great with these features. Anyone see the Samaritan video for UDK? lol looks amazing. http://udk.com/showcase-samaritan

[ReaperMan]

s.b.Newsom, on 20 January 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

.....omg Duke Nukem 4 (not DNF) would look great with these features. Anyone see the Samaritan video for UDK? lol looks amazing. http://udk.com/showcase-samaritan

DNF is Duke 4.

[Mad Max RW]

The day Gearbox bought DNF and the license to make future Duke Nukem titles it became their responsibility to put out a great game. Instead they spent a year hyping and lying to fans before selling a sub-par console cash grab at AAA prices.

[thatguy]

ReaperMan, on 20 January 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

DNF is Duke 4.

You missed the point, i'm choosing to ignore DNF and pretend it is a spinoff. Not a continuation to the series.

[ReaperMan]

s.b.Newsom, on 20 January 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

You missed the point, i'm choosing to ignore DNF and pretend it is a spinoff. Not a continuation to the series.

Ignoring it or not its still Duke 4. Lets just hope Duke 5 isn't hyped to shit and then turns out to be trash.

[Bloodshot]

s.b.Newsom, on 20 January 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I know i'm going to get voted down because people don't like hearing the truth. Do you realize how much more money it would cost to do such a thing? They acquired the rights because the company went under. You should be happy it was Gearbox and no other. The point was to buy the rights, release the game, and then relax so they can focus on making a better Duke game than trying to polish a POS. Think about it, they would have had to scrapped the story and redo all the levels, plus change a lot of the gaming mechanics. That would cost WAY to much.

Its like some people think 3d Realms is great, but guess what? They are great, but somehow it went downhill when they worked on DNF. They went under and the product we got was exactly the sort of game they spent so long working on. Two to Three more reasons of a delay would do nothing more than be a waste of money.

I know that fixing the pacing and all would be a lot of money, but improving the gunplay is something they still could've done and it wouldn't have cost them a ton.

A game with shit level design could still be a decent game if the combat is insanely fun.