Dark Side was made earlier, (since it was featutred heavily in the promo materials) and Blum joined Apogee before Grey, so he started working on the game earlier and made more content, isn't it?
That's what I have said basically. I wouldn't be surprised if Warp Factor and/or Sewer were started by Blum (the map layout at least), since they are much more complex than Levelord's usual layouts, or simply Levelord taking hint from the high-profile maps in the development era when created them.
This post was about the Accend Inc., creator of Rock'n ShaoLin : Legend of Seven Paladins and the man who behind it...it's not full story since most of details just rumors and lost in time... Oh I really hate whoever decided to translate "遊俠/Youxia" to "Paladin" because most of time, many Chinese games with Wuxia-theme had big f***ing chance named something in-game with Paladin and I always thinking something about medieval/fantasy one but totally wrong...
Morpheus Kitami, on 15 September 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who owned Accend did that stunt more than once. That's a common tactic among scummy businessmen in countries with weak copyright. That said, I hope your English becomes good enough one day to explain the story well. Its always nice to hear the history of an obscure company, even if they're no Cyberdreams.
Yeah. I'm try to explain about this Accend mess with my not-so-good English grammar...
Sorry about that.
This man, his surname is Liu, did tried to find a publisher for his Lot7P game, but many of them just refused his offer(mostly because FPS/Action games in Taiwan was just minority or just had no interest, at least in early 90s...), one of publisher did suspected about Liu's identity(Liu claimed he was lived outside of Taiwan since childhood and he can only speak English and little Chinese but actually not sound like that when they were went through meetings) and hired P.I. to find out, and then they found out Liu was just Taiwanese(well I'm really not sure, maybe he was from HK because I heard about Accend Inc. was an HK company, still not sure about that too), most what he said just lies, and of course due to that, this publisher also refused Liu's offer.
When Liu tried to find publishers/investors, he also claimed was developer of Wolfenstein 3D and of course it's NOT true, just a lie to those who didn't know about id software or video game industry in US or other place...and Liu and Accend Inc. keep did such bullshit things on TV interviews in that time.
Accend Inc. had a fighting game before Lot7P named "宇宙英雄"(Yǔ Zhòu Yīng Xióng, translation: Universe Heroes), you can find the footage here:
This mobygames site has this game's info, for some reasons, looks like it has English version too?
(I guess it released later, since this page said it was 1995, but original Trad. Chinese version came out from 1994 or earlier, before Lot7P.) https://www.mobygame...e-universe-hero
(Other note: Lot7P also has a page on mobygames site, but it looks like whoever wrote the page, was using its Korean name...)
And it was shitty too. Accend was claimed this game got an award(can't found about the info of award), but later found Accend was "bought" the award(Accend became the sponsor of an expo which gave their game the award), just for marketing...still it was not working and the sale was so poor.
Accend also claimed they were developing a flight game based this aircraft but nobody even saw any of actually footage of the game, only screenshots which nobody knows if real or fake, and then never heard about that because Accend Inc. closed their door off/disappeared.
Nobody heard about Liu after Accend Inc. was gone, but years later, he reappeared and changed his sur-name to Lin(maybe it's his original name) and had a interview on Taiwan's business magazine - Business Weekly issue #668 -- Jan. 24, 2001, if someone know Chinese and want to know...their(Business Weekly) website still has this article but required to be paid member to access and I'm not...I found some online backup sites has that full article but...well I just can't translate them all due my shitty English grammar, but mostly Lin/Liu just keep lies about he and his company did a lot of games, got a lot of awards but were all not true], this asshole even claimed he was one of developer of Wolf3D, Duke Nukem 3D and other 20 games, earned a lot and some awards...as he claimed but nothing were/was true...) in that interview...WTF?!
I found a way to got a copy of the article but since it's all Chinese and I could not translate it well so I can't just put it here...and I think nobody should get "torture" by that interview article, with FULL of lies... and...for whatever reasons, in the article, Lin/Liu claimed his studio -- I guess it was Accend Inc., since he claimed his studio was in US in the interview...who knows -- got shut down because of Columbine massacre and aftermath...well I don't know what to say...at that point I don't even believe any shit from him...
Yes, when the interview article released, some of people tried to contact id software about this Lin/Liu and you guess it, id software declined that guy has anything to do with them, they never heard about him. Aside from that magazine articles, had a rumor about Lin/Liu went into/created a new game studio in that time but no news, no details and then nothing really happened(or I just didn't found out/nobody bother to check), and then nobody really even heard about this guy anymore, I guess he failed again and given up.....
which I think it's good thing. lol
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 18 September 2019 - 09:13 AM
Player Lin, on 18 September 2019 - 06:14 AM, said:
Oh I really hate whoever decided to translate "遊俠/Youxia" to "Paladin" because most of time, many Chinese games with Wuxia-theme had big f***ing chance named something in-game with Paladin and I always thinking something about medieval/fantasy one but totally wrong...
You're right it is weird. Paladin is from the poem Song of Roland, and even earlier from Latin, it originally meant "Palace Officer" rather than religious knight as it came to be known because of D&D. Given Youxia's origin it seems a better choice of word in English is "hero". Which also has a different original meaning, but I digress...
Quote
Yeah. I'm try to explain about this Accend mess with my not-so-good English grammar...
Sorry about that.
Not a problem, I really appreciate this.
Quote
This man, his surname is Liu, did tried to find a publisher for his Lot7P game, but many of them just refused his offer(mostly because FPS/Action games in Taiwan was just minority or just had no interest, at least in early 90s...), one of publisher did suspected about Liu's identity(Liu claimed he was lived outside of Taiwan since childhood and he can only speak English and little Chinese but actually not sound like that when they were went through meetings) and hired P.I. to find out, and then they found out Liu was just Taiwanese(well I'm really not sure, maybe he was from HK because I heard about Accend Inc. was an HK company, still not sure about that too), most what he said just lies, and of course due to that, this publisher also refused Liu's offer.
So I guess that American address for the company on their Mobygames page was probably legit then? From what you're saying it seems possible the guy could've set up a PO box in America to make it seem like he's got a big company in America.
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(Other note: Lot7P also has a page on mobygames site, but it looks like whoever wrote the page, was using its Korean name...)
I think whoever wrote the page was under the impression that the original version under the original name was never released.
Quote
Accend also claimed they were developing a flight game based this aircraft but nobody even saw any of actually footage of the game, only screenshots which nobody knows if real or fake, and then never heard about that because Accend Inc. closed their door off/disappeared.
Would you happen to have any ideas where these screenshots would be? I'm not doubting you here, I'm just curious about it.
Quote
I found a way to got a copy of the article but since it's all Chinese and I could not translate it well so I can't just put it here...and I think nobody should get "torture" by that interview article, with FULL of lies... and...for whatever reasons, in the article, Lin/Liu claimed his studio -- I guess it was Accend Inc., since he claimed his studio was in US in the interview...who knows -- got shut down because of Columbine massacre and aftermath...well I don't know what to say...at that point I don't even believe any shit from him...
Really? I guess Joseph Lieberman's anti-video game crusade had one good point.
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Yes, when the interview article released, some of people tried to contact id software about this Lin/Liu and you guess it, id software declined that guy has anything to do with them, they never heard about him. Aside from that magazine articles, had a rumor about Lin/Liu went into/created a new game studio in that time but no news, no details and then nothing really happened(or I just didn't found out/nobody bother to check), and then nobody really even heard about this guy anymore, I guess he failed again and given up.....
which I think it's good thing. lol
I wonder if he just started under another name afterwards. It is easier than ever to make a game from scratch, especially for someone like Lin/Liu, even quicker if he just puts something together quickly. Against that, he is a braggart and wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut if he did.
Also, I'm doing a little project where I'm reviewing shooter games from the era, would you mind if I referenced this post when I get to Lot7P?
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
You're right it is weird. Paladin is from the poem Song of Roland, and even earlier from Latin, it originally meant "Palace Officer" rather than religious knight as it came to be known because of D&D. Given Youxia's origin it seems a better choice of word in English is "hero". Which also has a different original meaning, but I digress...
Yeah...it was just someone famous enough decided to translate "Youxia" to "Paladin" and then everyone in Taiwan were doing the same shit, what the hell...
Personally I would think "ranger"(now most of "Youxia" will translate to ranger or similar words) would be better because hero has its own translations...and sometimes it may not mean heroic things...still...I don't really too care, just don't use "Paladin" for that.
This old RPG game was using "Chinese Paladin" as one of unofficial English name(well, I suspect that was "un"official, since the original MS-DOS version of game using "PAL" as default installation directory as its abbreviation, and most of Taiwan/HK/China players knows that, even the SDL port project for original game using that original directory name too) for a while, until someone decided used the new name fits the original Chinese game more...and yes, the MMORPG spin-off game was official called that name, screw whoever decided that.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
So I guess that American address for the company on their Mobygames page was probably legit then? From what you're saying it seems possible the guy could've set up a PO box in America to make it seem like he's got a big company in America.
Yeah, maybe, considering what I found by google-ing, it could be like that.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
I think whoever wrote the page was under the impression that the original version under the original name was never released.
Hmm, you're right, because it was not "officially" released, and only in Taiwan (and/or HK, not sure), at least the publisher still give it a try, and at least release one patch...but still can't save the shitty game.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
Would you happen to have any ideas where these screenshots would be? I'm not doubting you here, I'm just curious about it.
I hope, but no luck(this part was rumor mostly, not sure if really the screenshots did existed or not...)...
I guess it maybe confidential or something like that...since that aircraft was the only one self-made by Taiwan, so our air force may not like it if info went to the public, and if that project was really a thing...or, maybe just totally fake at all, just hype since beginning, but nobody really knows.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
Really? I guess Joseph Lieberman's anti-video game crusade had one good point.
Nah, I feel that's more like collateral damage.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
I wonder if he just started under another name afterwards. It is easier than ever to make a game from scratch, especially for someone like Lin/Liu, even quicker if he just puts something together quickly. Against that, he is a braggart and wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut if he did.
Yeah, it mostly likely he decided to move into mainland China if he still want to do such bullshit again, and it would be more successful in the China, for some reasons, and that's normal if no one ever heard about he again.
Morpheus Kitami, on 18 September 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:
Also, I'm doing a little project where I'm reviewing shooter games from the era, would you mind if I referenced this post when I get to Lot7P?
I guess you can, I don't really mind, I just somebody. Since most of info just found from internet, mostly Chinese website/blogs/backups (of course, using Accend Inc.'s Chinese name : "艾生資訊"), and unless somebody did a better article by translating those info to English then I guess I'm the only reference.
(Still, I can't guarantee these info are 100% correct, because of...well, rumors.)
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 19 September 2019 - 05:35 AM
Player Lin, on 19 September 2019 - 05:16 AM, said:
Yeah...it was just someone famous enough decided to translate "Youxia" to "Paladin" and then everyone in Taiwan were doing the same shit, what the hell...
Personally I would think "ranger"(now most of "Youxia" will translate to ranger or similar words) would be better because hero has its own translations...and sometimes it may not mean heroic things...still...I don't really too care, just don't use "Paladin" for that.
This old RPG game was using "Chinese Paladin" as one of unofficial English name(well, I suspect that was "un"official, since the original MS-DOS version of game using "PAL" as default installation directory as its abbreviation, and most of Taiwan/HK/China players knows that, even the SDL port project for original game using that original directory name too) for a while, until someone decided used the new name fits the original Chinese game more...and yes, the MMORPG spin-off game was official called that name, screw whoever decided that.
Hmm, ranger tends tends to be more associated with protectors of nature, and in one case law enforcement. If they're not always heroic, then knight would fit better, but that still brings up paladin-like imagery. There's champion, but that's not quite the same. The closest thing I can think of that would make sense in English is ronin...which is obviously a questionable choice. Perhaps Youxia should just be translated as Youxia.
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Hmm, you're right, because it was not "officially" released, and only in Taiwan (and/or HK, not sure), at least the publisher still give it a try, and at least release one patch...but still can't save the shitty game.
I was under the impression that it was released in Korea too, but nobody who still has a copy has bothered uploading the Korean version.
Quote
I hope, but no luck(this part was rumor mostly, not sure if really the screenshots did existed or not...)...
I guess it maybe confidential or something like that...since that aircraft was the only one self-made by Taiwan, so our air force may not like it if info went to the public, and if that project was really a thing...or, maybe just totally fake at all, just hype since beginning, but nobody really knows.
That would make sense, since even an arcadey and bad simulation of it could give the PRC a slightly better shot at taking them out. Or copying them, given how they've obtained most of their air force...probably all their technology now that I think of it.
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Yeah, it mostly likely he decided to move into mainland China if he still want to do such bullshit again, and it would be more successful in the China, for some reasons, and that's normal if no one ever heard about he again.
Yes, that could be it, a whole new group of people he can tell that he was responsible for Wolfenstein, Doom and Tekwar.
Quote
I guess you can, I don't really mind, I just somebody. Since most of info just found from internet, mostly Chinese website/blogs/backups (of course, using Accend Inc.'s Chinese name : "艾生資訊"), and unless somebody did a better article by translating those info to English then I guess I'm the only reference.
(Still, I can't guarantee these info are 100% correct, because of...well, rumors.)
Well, I'm not very good at understanding the various Chinese languages and I don't think I'll ever be, so even rumors and hearsay is better than nothing. It does expand the story to something beyond "some Chinese dude conned his way into getting the engine".
Morpheus Kitami, on 19 September 2019 - 07:25 PM, said:
Hmm, ranger tends tends to be more associated with protectors of nature, and in one case law enforcement. If they're not always heroic, then knight would fit better, but that still brings up paladin-like imagery. There's champion, but that's not quite the same. The closest thing I can think of that would make sense in English is ronin...which is obviously a questionable choice. Perhaps Youxia should just be translated as Youxia.
Yeah, they all not fit well...it's like one of the special cases that you shouldn't translate and better leave it alone.
Morpheus Kitami, on 19 September 2019 - 07:25 PM, said:
I was under the impression that it was released in Korea too, but nobody who still has a copy has bothered uploading the Korean version.
Maybe some Korean site still has it can be download, but since I'm totally sucked at Korean so I can't help...
I did found some box arts of Korean version many, many years ago when I try to find a copy of the game so I know it was exist just sadly can't found a copy of Korean version of game, even I found a Korean site had link of that but...no, it was the original Taiwanese version...
Morpheus Kitami, on 19 September 2019 - 07:25 PM, said:
That would make sense, since even an arcadey and bad simulation of it could give the PRC a slightly better shot at taking them out. Or copying them, given how they've obtained most of their air force...probably all their technology now that I think of it.
Yes, that's the problem...but...that aircraft in early revisions really just too faulty, even some joked it : "I Don't Fly/Fight" (based its other name "Indigenous Defense Fighter", short to IDF), so I'm not sure PRC would like try to copy that aircraft, when PRC can do better theirself, maybe.
But then again, it still better just don't do that.
Player Lin, on 20 September 2019 - 08:45 AM, said:
Maybe some Korean site still has it can be download, but since I'm totally sucked at Korean so I can't help...
I did found some box arts of Korean version many, many years ago when I try to find a copy of the game so I know it was exist just sadly can't found a copy of Korean version of game, even I found a Korean site had link of that but...no, it was the original Taiwanese version...
The box art of the Korean version does exist, I've seen it myself, which I think is how we know that it was released physically.
Quote
Yes, that's the problem...but...that aircraft in early revisions really just too faulty, even some joked it : "I Don't Fly/Fight" (based its other name "Indigenous Defense Fighter", short to IDF), so I'm not sure PRC would like try to copy that aircraft, when PRC can do better theirself, maybe.
But then again, it still better just don't do that.
Morpheus Kitami, on 20 September 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:
Ah, so its an early prototype of the F-35.
Not sure, maybe unlikely as it was started about late 1970s and early 1980s and F-35 project started at 1992, but it sure did got some supports from US when in development...since I'm not very good at this topic so I can't say "too sure" about that.
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 21 September 2019 - 03:51 AM
Player Lin, on 21 September 2019 - 03:50 AM, said:
Not sure, maybe unlikely as it was started about late 1970s and early 1980s and F-35 project started at 1992, but it sure did got some supports from US when in development...since I'm not very good at this topic so I can't say "too sure" about that.
It was a joke. It being that the F-35 is basically a really expensive piece of scenery right now, since it has extensive problems flying. Hence, when you said that plane is jokingly referred to as the I Can't Fly, I made the connection.
There's some very little info that may be added by Brandon Cobb and his Taiwanese game-dev friends:
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The story got worse from there. While Sango Fighter did indeed make it to other markets including the USA, Panda Entertainment and its employees never saw a dime from these foreign sales, something Jon [Cheng] remembers clearly. “It's a long story, but a company called Accend pirated Sango Fighter and sold it in the USA. They even used Sango Fighter to cheat Apogee, the largest shareware company in the USA, out of their 3D game engine. To me, this deception was heartbreaking,” he said. [source]
A while ago I asked Brandon if he could add more to this but he said he didn't know anything more than already told himself and his friends probably wouldn't like to revisit the bad experiences they had because of Accend.
But Accend indeed had distributed an English shareware version of Sango Fighter and presumably sold the full version too. Two flavours of the shareware release can be downloaded here among other places. The included order form contains the following address:
Quote
Make checks or Money Order payable to PAI Orders shipped within 5-7 working days.
Address:
ACCEND INC. Voice:816-429-2520
P.O. Box 484 Fax :816-429-2579
Warrensburg,MO 64093
Also HELP.TXT contains a tech support phone number.
Morpheus Kitami, on 21 September 2019 - 01:38 PM, said:
It was a joke. It being that the F-35 is basically a really expensive piece of scenery right now, since it has extensive problems flying. Hence, when you said that plane is jokingly referred to as the I Can't Fly, I made the connection.
Okay, looks like my joke detector just failed at this one.
---
So...Sango Figher one is something I never heard(or I just forgot if I even heard about that so many years ago), but I'm not surprised at all.
Yeah, now this make sense if some of Taiwanese game devs really HATE Accend Inc. and that asshole, I just didn't know about Panda Entertainment also became Accend's victim too, wow, what the hell...
No problem, I imagine I would have the same problem trying to write in a language not my native one about a subject I'm not familiar with.
That's actually some really shrewd business moves. Or at least that's what I would say if they worked. Scamming people out of their assets so they can flip them in foreign countries, then repeat the process there is just so stereotypically evil corporation that I'm surprised it didn't work out better for them. Maybe it would've worked if he brought Wolfenstein or Doom over instead of making his own. Its a shame to hear that the Sango Fighter devs got conned, but that does explain why only the first game was translated to English.
This post has been edited by Morpheus Kitami: 23 September 2019 - 01:59 PM
Morpheus Kitami, on 23 September 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:
Maybe it would've worked if he brought Wolfenstein or Doom over instead of making his own.
Id Software had already struck a deal with a Taiwanese publisher called Kingformation, who had previously been involved in translated pirate versions of games such as Dragon Quest. So the story goes, Id licensed several of their games to them in exchange for a low royalty rate of $1 a copy. This way Kingformation were able to obtain a bit of legitimacy and Id were able to make at least a little money off the Chinese market.
Supposedly Kingformation went on to publish Duke 3D in China, but I haven't been able to find any information on this release.
Id Software had already struck a deal with a Taiwanese publisher called Kingformation, who had previously been involved in translated pirate versions of games such as Dragon Quest. So the story goes, Id licensed several of their games to them in exchange for a low royalty rate of $1 a copy. This way Kingformation were able to obtain a bit of legitimacy and Id were able to make at least a little money off the Chinese market.
As I heard something about this from a former Kingformation co. ltd. employee -- was a game designer/producer in that time, he's still actives these days but some times ago, I did tried to ask some info about that time but sadly he just cannot remember most of details about them...and I don't want to bother him about these things again --, those games from id software didn't really sold well, so they changed plan.
But still, they(Kingformation) tried.
I'm sure they have nothing to do with mainland China as I know, at least on early DooM & Quake time.
BTW, Kingformation did made a game strategy RPG game: Dragon Force(Guang Ming Zhan Shi 光明戰史), its gameplay was like Shining Force from Sega Genesis. They also put a lot of Dragon Quest/Shining Force elements in Dragon Force's background and main story, use its spell names(pure transliteration, they're all original Japanese spell name, but in Chinese), player character(s) designs and some other things.
In the game's secret battle that cannot visit by normal means(as it was designed for cheater, when it triggered, the game will show an error message and sent player to the studio of Kingformation...and it can be avoid by just go to city/town to find church then save the game and exit, them quit and restart), the player's force have to fight the game devs, and they are overpowered but still, the battle can be beaten if your characters are also overpowered too but it's only possible by doing memory hacking(Kingformation also published some memory scanner/debug tool for hacking...so how irony), I did tried that but...since no reward so beaten the level just pointless...
Well, the point is : A developer enemy unit named "Game Desinger", his battle sprite looks like he wears a white T-shirt, with DooM 2 logo on it. It was confirmed by the former employee : they had a lot of that T-shirts for put into the package boxes of DooM 2 they published, and most of employees also had the T-shirt as reward and wear the T-shirt too.
Proof of in-game footage, in 1:27 :
(I failed on this video because Game Designer's instant death attack just overruled my cheat program so my hero just dead and Game Over, sad. I did tried again but without recording and I got victory, so I know it's no reward, just sent player back to game)
The Kins, on 24 September 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:
Supposedly Kingformation went on to publish Duke 3D in China, but I haven't been able to find any information on this release.
No, Kingformation never publish Duke3D, that was other company that I never heard, I did saw the ad of DN3D and I'm sure it was from other company(in a game magazine), but I don't have the ad anymore so I cannot show the prove, and if Kingformation did had publish Duke3D, then I would know and found some info about that I also found nothing......but then again, Accend Inc. was published original RotT but still not many remembered this.
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 26 September 2019 - 07:09 AM
There are a few clues that in Duke Nukem 64 the Freeway was planned to not be a secret level like Launch Facility in this version, but they changed it back later on during developmnt.
- The more obvious evidence is that the Nukebutton at the end of Freeway is not green
- The secret exit in Hotel Hell is missing the manhole under the Nukebutton
- Stadium doesn't start in the lifting platform, likely because it wouldn't be the level after Hotel Hell
What level would be found in the Hotel Hell secret is up to speculation. But Derelict can be seen in an old screenshot...
There are a few clues that in Duke Nukem 64 the Freeway was planned to not be a secret level like Launch Facility in this version, but they changed it back later on during developmnt.
- The more obvious evidence is that the Nukebutton at the end of Freeway is not green
- The secret exit in Hotel Hell is missing the manhole under the Nukebutton
- Stadium doesn't start in the lifting platform, likely because it wouldn't be the level after Hotel Hell
What level would be found in the Hotel Hell secret is up to speculation. But Derelict can be seen in an old screenshot...
was the cycloid emperor map a cut level? Or a community user map?
Spoiler
This post has been edited by Fox: 31 October 2019 - 12:57 AM
Reason for edit: Big images
It's funny that devs made these screenshots just for the magazines, while in reality the maps simply doesn't exist. Yet people have odd nostalgia for the maps that never were, being mesmerized by these images decades after game's release. I remember Gambini said that he was very dissapointed by the absence of police car in E1L1.
I have the odd nostaliga for Witchaven. I have it on a warez cd, and I remember my father played it a couple of times - I never actually played it myself until my late teens. When I was a kid the game seemed so cool and awesome to me, almost on par with Hexen and Heretic, which I actually played back then. Somehow the game's cover image become sort of childhood/nostalgia symbol to me - the image I always remembered. Oh well.
The Watchtower, on 23 December 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:
Duke Nukem 64 is the best console version of the game, while changing the game to adhere to Nintendo's policies at the time still does so in a way that makes it stand on its own.
Help
Duke4.net
DNF #1
Duke 3D #1
Sanek, on 11 September 2019 - 11:04 AM, said:
