[Hendricks266]

@Reaper:

It feels like you're interpreting my words in a different direction than the one I'm coming from. For example, in reference to They Live, I used the word "corporate" among others, but instead you seized on "Hollywood" and added the words "liberal" and "elite" which I did not use. I used the word Hollywood because Reagan was an actor and Hollywood is extremely corporate, though that may not have been clear originally. Does the phrase "greed is good" not apply to Hollywood? It may also have not been clear that I'm not saying the R's are any better than the D's. They have gone in such an authoritarian, if not totalitarian, direction, that it felt beside the point of my analogy to get into.

Spoiler

Unrestrained capitalism grooms people to be obedient consumers. Corporate journalism's priority is profiting from attention, thanks William Randolph Hearst. Everything is beholden to Big Advertising. People who post online may enjoy being part of this toxic system because of the social acceptance it promises them in return.

I saw a post recently, "Disney has done a really good job making it seem like watching Disney/Marvel stuff is some act of resistance".

More to the point, "avoiding palatability at all costs" is a complete misrepresentation of what I'm saying. In my steakhouse example, I even said the food was good, just that it lacked spice. Spice is not for everyone; you should be able to get food without spice if you prefer it that way. But it should not be withheld or forbidden either. I myself usually go for mild, but not zero.

For this discussion to have more signal and less noise, I need tangible examples of conduct you don't like, past present or future. Speaking in generalities and only referencing second-hand hearsay confuses me. (It also slightly reminds me of the Shadow Brokers dictating PolymerNG development outside of public view. Whoever they were. )

Show me the ketchup you say we're smothering on everybody's steaks.

@ck3D:

I have experienced being among the out-group in environments with in-group/out-group dynamics at various times in my life, and I do not wish to perpetuate the cycle. I wish to avoid tribalism.

At the same time, I feel like there is no harm in having a flag, having an identity that our members can identify with however much or little they choose, in whatever ways they like.

I don't want to be the opposite of Doomworld, I want to exist independent of the dichotomy we have used them as an example of in this thread.

Moreover, I pay occasional attention to other places Dukers congregate, such as Facebook groups, and I find the level of discussion is of a different type to what we have here, such that there is no "competition". I've also been told in the past that "people" were going to make a Duke4 "replacement" and of course that never materialized.

Also remember that the record high-water mark for concurrent active users on the Duke4 forums was on 3 February 2014, which was when Duke Nukem: Mass Destruction was announced. If a new main-series Duke game is truly announced, we may break that record. We are still relevant to Duke. It is Duke whose relevance has been neglected.

I will say that if a new user posts some low-quality bait, even out of ignorance or naivete, then I would predict that some established users would respond with poking or "hammering the nail" rather than engaging constructively. I hope that's something We as a userbase can improve upon. It is possible to be socially inept while technically adept, and we should not scare these people away. Maybe they can learn something from us, and us from them.

@Jakass: (Is that pronounced Hackass, Wackass, or Yackass?)

jkas789, on 11 November 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

Anyways I have a very important question if you don't mind Hendricks. As a latino living in the USA do you know beef head tacos? Is that a thing over there or is that not a thing? I have been wondering for years but nobody has been able to answer me decisively if the taco restaurants over there keep to the good old recipes or not. My own taco experiences so far in California, Arizona New York and Washington have been less than stellar in terms of taco variety. There is no beef tongue tacos, or beef cheek tacos. The head and the tripe seem to be woefully wasted over in gringo land.

I will have to scout that out. I've never had beef head / tongue / tripe, though family members have said they like lengua. Between my university town and being close to Chicago, I'm sure I can find it.

[Radar]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

Conservatism above all else dictates that the world exists as a hierarchy, and that everyone in that hierarchy know their place. Not only that, but that the hierarchy is natural and immutable. This is the fundamental basis of the opposition of anything they perceive as "forced inclusion" or "compelled speech" or "wokeness" or any other number of culture war buzzwords. The big fish eat the little fish, someone is the CEO and someone else cleans the toilets, some people get to be rich because they earned it and some people get to be poor because they didn't, and that's the way the world works, and anyone who suggests changing this system is therefore suggesting we change nature itself, and therefore is the be ridiculed and opposed. Nothing terrifies you more than undeservedly slipping down the hierarchy you see as a natural order.

The opposition really stems from a fear of themselves losing their place in the hierarchy. This is why conservatives will advocate for the powerful - say, opposing taxing the wealthy - while they themselves are not and will never be in that class. They may never be the big fish at the top, but they feel safe and secure in never being at the bottom and being eaten. They fear undeservedly becoming the ones cleaning the toilets, because someone has to do it but it shouldn't be them. This is why conservatism opposes "unfair advantage", but doesn't blink an eye on what they see as natural disadvantage. The person cleaning the toilets is doing that job because that's where they're supposed to be. Only bad things happen to people who deserve it, right?

To challenge the system, to suggest the system itself is flawed, is therefore to imply people in their "natural" level on the hierarchy are also flawed. Because to them there's no possible way any of this could be true, then means that you, the person leveling the complaint, are the problem. Not just a problem - a threat. A threat to the natural order itself.

More like, conservatives realize that the vast majority of successful people earned their place in the world and aren't jealous losers about it. But there is obviously grease in the system. Name the flaw in the system and we could debate the relevancy of that flaw. But these broad comments are typically written by people who want Capitalism gutted, which is where the pushback comes from.

Whatever your issue with hierarchies may be, I think it is just common sense that positions should go to the most competent person for the role. But there are some roles at the top of the hierarchy that are not determined by competency, but rather social networking. What a leftist might describe as "corporate politicking", but a right-winger describes as "people skills". It is just simply the way the world works. If you can find a more efficient way of structuring the world, then by all means, shoot, but leftists prove time and time again that their ideas suck and just cause more problems.

And on the note of taxation, I imagine millions of conservatives make good money and vote against higher taxes for themselves.


Anyways, it sounds like you're dedicated to the notion that EDuke32 isn't popular because the community was dominated by "free speech absolutism" and a bunch of alt-righters, many years before the term "alt-right" was even coined. Good luck with that.

[Hendricks266]

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 06:28 PM, said:

More like, conservatives realize that the vast majority of successful people earned their place in the world and aren't jealous losers about it.

Spoiler

Image description
Meme with four portraits of white men and some text.
Title: HOW "SELF-MADE" BILLIONAIRES GOT THEIR START
image of Bill Gates: Mom sat on the same board as the CEO of IBM and convinced him to take a risk on her son's new company
image of Jeff Bezos: Started Amazon with 300,000 in seed capital from his parents and more from some rich friends
image of Warren Buffett: The son of a powerful congressmanwho owned an investment company
image of Elon Musk: Dad owned an emerald mine in apartheid South Africa

[Radar]

Hendricks266, on 12 November 2022 - 06:34 PM, said:

Spoiler

Image description
Meme with four portraits of white men and some text.
Title: HOW "SELF-MADE" BILLIONAIRES GOT THEIR START
image of Bill Gates: Mom sat on the same board as the CEO of IBM and convinced him to take a risk on her son's new company
image of Jeff Bezos: Started Amazon with 300,000 in seed capital from his parents and more from some rich friends
image of Warren Buffett: The son of a powerful congressmanwho owned an investment company
image of Elon Musk: Dad owned an emerald mine in apartheid South Africa

This meme is selecting from a substratum of hyper successful men in order to deduce that hyper levels of success are a result of intergenerational wealth, which is something I don't necessarily disagree with. I think it's the goal of every parent to use their resources to give their child an easier life than they had. But I wouldn't cite any of these men as how the average person achieves a successful and fulfilling life, which is relative and varies for every person.

[Danukem]

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 06:49 PM, said:

This meme is selecting from a substratum of hyper successful men in order to deduce that hyper levels of success are a result of intergenerational wealth, which is something I don't necessarily disagree with. I think it's the goal of every parent to use their resources to give their child an easier life than they had. But I wouldn't cite any of these men as how the average person achieves a successful and fulfilling life, which is relative and varies for every person.

I think the point relates to what you said about the role of people skills in determining who is at the top of the hiararchy -- no matter how good your people skills are, it's not going be good enough to send you go back in time to make your parents rich before you were born.

[Reaper_Man]

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 06:28 PM, said:

jealous

I always love this argument, that the reason someone opposes conservative thinking is because they're simply jealous. You know absolutely nothing about my situation, so I'll enlighten you. I have a very lucrative career, I spent several years on the board of directors for a non-profit, I own a small business, and I'm about to start a second. Whatever number you might imagine I make in a year, I almost guarantee you're short. In fact, I might be the very model of what you imagine "conservatives who make good money and vote against higher taxes for themselves" if you didn't know I opposed conservative politics.

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 06:28 PM, said:

alt-righters

I love this strategy too. The only time I used the term alt-right was in reference to a quote from John Carpenter about co-opting visual imagery in They Live. You and the others who keep repeating it like I called you that are telling on yourselves.

EDIT:
Oh, and I missed the part where you called me a leftist. Strike three! Remember the 2 times where I said "anti-right doesn't mean pro-left"? I don't understand what's so hard to conceptualize about this.

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 07:25 PM, said:

The only time I used the term alt-right was in reference to a quote from John Carpenter about co-opting visual imagery in They Live. You and the others who keep repeating it like I called you that are telling on yourselves.

In between watching UFC fights so I checked! Sang, Phredreeke, Forge and Radar all did it.

Naughty boys. I would expect that from Forge and Radar, but the other two... tsk tsk

[Tea Monster]

Also, capitalism seems to be very one-sided. Bezos can't afford for his people to take bathroom breaks? There are very few benevolent billionaires. The standard of living and working conditions in the Western World have been falling in real terms for decades while the wealthy just keep on getting richer, usually by sticking it to regular workers by not paying their share of taxes and supporting anti-union regulations.

If you are an actual self-made millionaire, then I'm happy for you. Just pay your fair share of taxes and stop trying to turn me into a robot/serf.

-----
EDuke32 is a popular BUILD engine port. I think the problem is that the renderer hasn't improved (not a fan of Polymer). Everyone is making cool 90's style Duke mods, but very few people seem to be using it to strike out into new territory. Apart from AWOL and Ion Fury, I don't think there are many Steam games using the BUILD engine. I don't know if there is anything behind the scenes as to why this isn't the case. There are cool mods like WGRealms and Alien Armageddon, but they don't seem to get the same coverage as stuff like Total Chaos.

[Reaper_Man]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 07:43 PM, said:

In between watching UFC fights so I checked! Sang, Phredreeke, Forge and Radar all did it.

Do you got Adesanya or Pereira?

[Reaper_Man]

Tea Monster, on 12 November 2022 - 07:45 PM, said:

Also, capitalism seems to be very one-sided.

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 07:46 PM, said:

Do you got Adesanya or Pereira?

Tough call. I'm going with Adesanya because I think his footwork and defense will prevail. But I kind of want to see Pereira win to open up the division since it is getting stale with Adesanya dominating.

[Radar]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 07:16 PM, said:

I think the point relates to what you said about the role of people skills in determining who is at the top of the hiararchy -- no matter how good your people skills are, it's not going be good enough to send you go back in time to make your parents rich before you were born.

And I re-iterate, Musk and Bezos represent a tiny tiny fraction of men who have achieved high levels of success. Mega-conglomerates are not the only hierarchies in existence. I had in mind small businesses, community-based organizations, religious institutions, online groups, perhaps even small departments of a much larger business. I think the majority of people who achieve success in most institutions do it without relying on large sums of intergenerational wealth.

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 07:25 PM, said:

I always love this argument, that the reason someone opposes conservative thinking is because they're simply jealous. You know absolutely nothing about my situation, so I'll enlighten you. I have a very lucrative career, I spent several years on the board of directors for a non-profit, I own a small business, and I'm about to start a second. Whatever number you might imagine I make in a year, I almost guarantee you're short. In fact, I might be the very model of what you imagine "conservatives who make good money and vote against higher taxes for themselves" if you didn't know I opposed conservative politics.

Sounds to me like you're speaking from a place of privilege then. You should depose yourself from positions of authority and hand it to those of naturally disadvantaged backgrounds. After all, the hierarchy needs flattening. Btw, no need to vote for higher taxes, you can write a check any time.

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 07:25 PM, said:

I love this strategy too. The only time I used the term alt-right was in reference to a quote from John Carpenter about co-opting visual imagery in They Live. You and the others who keep repeating it like I called you that are telling on yourselves.

EDIT:
Oh, and I missed the part where you called me a leftist. Strike three! Remember the 2 times where I said "anti-right doesn't mean pro-left"? I don't understand what's so hard to conceptualize about this.

So then your theory is that this place is unpalatable because some of us are just plain right-wing? Well, you have even less of a point then. That's half of America.

[Reaper_Man]

That was a clean knee, hate to see Edgar go out like that though.

I think Izzy is just all around unstoppable, and Pereira had a couple lucky calls in the kickboxing matches (at least based on what Dan Hardy was breaking down on his show).

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 07:54 PM, said:

Sounds to me like you're speaking from a place of privilege then. You should depose yourself from positions of authority and hand it to those of naturally disadvantaged backgrounds. After all, the hierarchy needs flattening. Btw, no need to vote for higher taxes, you can write a check any time.

Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Let me give you a suggestion - If you can't argue in favor of a position you oppose, then you don't understand it well enough to oppose it. Repeating catch phrases and soundbites that you've heard whichever YouTuber you get your political opinion from isn't the same as grokking it.

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 08:04 PM, said:

I think Izzy is just all around unstoppable, and Pereira had a couple lucky calls in the kickboxing matches (at least based on what Dan Hardy was breaking down on his show).

Yes, the first fight was close and Pereira was lucky to get the decision. In the 2nd fight he was lucky to get a standing-8 count (which doesn't exist in MMA) which allowed him to recover and come back and score a KO. His KO threat is very real though and it could happen again. But yeah I would give Izzy a 65% chance of winning. I'm also very interested to see how Izzy walks out.

[Forge]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 07:43 PM, said:

In between watching UFC fights so I checked! Sang, Phredreeke, Forge and Radar all did it.

Naughty boys. I would expect that from Forge and Radar, but the other two... tsk tsk

hold up there chief - I only used it because I was called one, and I responded with what was the implied external view of the environment of this forum.

And according to mentalgymnastics.com alt-right and right-winger are exchangeable terms that can mean the same thing within proper context (e.g. right-winger vitriol, right-wing reactionaries, right-wing victim complex, right-wing troll, right-wing hate speech, right-wing culture war reactionaries)

since alt-right is literally defined as right wing extremists/activist (it also includes those who believe in libertarianism, men’s rights, cultural conservatism and populism)

[Radar]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 08:04 PM, said:

Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Let me give you a suggestion - If you can't argue in favor of a position you oppose, then you don't understand it well enough to oppose it. Repeating catch phrases and soundbites that you've heard whichever YouTuber you get your political opinion from isn't the same as grokking it.

Dodging the question as to why their own principles don't apply to them on cue, as every leftist does in some uniquely creative way.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 12 November 2022 - 08:10 PM, said:

hold up there chief - I only used it because I was called one, and I responded with what was the implied external view of the environment of this forum.

And according to mentalgymnastics.com alt-right and right-winger are exchangeable terms that can mean the same thing within proper context (e.g. right-winger vitriol, right-wing reactionaries, right-wing victim complex, right-wing troll, right-wing hate speech, right-wing culture war reactionaries)

I didn't notice you being called one. My bad if I missed that.

I thought there was a difference insofar as "alt-right" is typically used to describe neo-nazis whereas "right-wing" typically refers to generic conservatives. But as with lots of other terms, it's a mess and some people think of them as synonyms and others make a big deal about the differences.

[jkas789]

Tea Monster, on 12 November 2022 - 04:51 PM, said:

No, I was thinking of HROT, I just thought it was a Quake engine game. My mistake. But Wrath is one. Again, apart from the colours, it also keeps to the old-school feel.

HROT is interesting. I remember some threads on 4chan where a couple of anons took a look at the engine and it apparently was this weird ass slav coding magic that blew everyone's mid. I wish I had saved the thread to share it here (ノ_<。)

Also right wing and left wing are such nebulous words this days. And it depends a lot on the country. For example in Mexico right wing and left wing do not mean what it means to gringos. But then again parties are a joke.

[Jimmy]

I don't have the time to respond to everything here but Duke4.net's forum was basically a 3D Realms Forum troll containment board and that shitposter culture has persisted since its inception. I always argued that making it "the" hub for Duke and/or EDuke32 would create a cultural problem and EDuke32 should especially have its own forum with no general topics or off-topic section. Because even then people who hated each other could just keep it professional for the sake of a shared hobby.

[Reaper_Man]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

I thought there was a difference insofar as "alt-right" is typically used to describe neo-nazis whereas "right-wing" typically refers to generic conservatives. But as with lots of other terms, it's a mess and some people think of them as synonyms and others make a big deal about the differences.

Don't forget the "not right-wing in any real political sense, just motivated exclusively by owning the libs" types

[Danukem]

This may be the only time I root for Zhang Weili. Carla Esparza's style is so boring it's criminal.
EDIT: YES!

EDIT2: Now Izzy does a normal walkout, all serious with no dancing, no costume, nothing. Not sure what to make of that.

EDIT3: Round 1 close but Izzy steals it at the end of the round, rocks Pereira with a devastating cross. Peraira may have been saved by the bell.

EDIT4: Round 2 closse AF but Pereira takes it by a hair with a takedown at the end and some late damage. Izzy is faster and smarter but Per. is gigantic and hits like a truck.

EDIT5: Izzy breaks out his never before seen grappling skills and wins round 3. Pereira looks tired. Would not be surprised to see Izzy get a finish in rond 4.

EDIT6: Round 4 Pereira plods forward but without much offense, Izzy lights him up for 4 minutes. P. flurries in last minute but doesn't do much damage. 3-1 Izzy. P. needs to unload what is left in the tank in round 5.

[Danukem]

Wow, Pereira does indeed emptry the tank in round 5. Izzy's defense holds up for a while but then some thunderous punches get through. Once Izzy is stunned he is defenseless and Pereira gets the TKO. Pereira taking off round 4 to conserve energy paid off.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Human cockfighting is cool

[Jimmy]

Daily Reminder: Reagan was a crypto-leftist.

[Phredreeke]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 07:25 PM, said:

I love this strategy too. The only time I used the term alt-right was in reference to a quote from John Carpenter about co-opting visual imagery in They Live. You and the others who keep repeating it like I called you that are telling on yourselves.

When it comes to the culture war, it’s generally the alt-right that people have a problem with, not stuffy old conservatives like Dennis Prager.

[ck3D]

Thank you Forge, Hendricks and Phredreeke for addressing my points.

Hendricks266, on 12 November 2022 - 05:35 PM, said:

@ck3D:

I have experienced being among the out-group in environments with in-group/out-group dynamics at various times in my life, and I do not wish to perpetuate the cycle. I wish to avoid tribalism.

At the same time, I feel like there is no harm in having a flag, having an identity that our members can identify with however much or little they choose, in whatever ways they like.

I don't want to be the opposite of Doomworld, I want to exist independent of the dichotomy we have used them as an example of in this thread.

Moreover, I pay occasional attention to other places Dukers congregate, such as Facebook groups, and I find the level of discussion is of a different type to what we have here, such that there is no "competition". I've also been told in the past that "people" were going to make a Duke4 "replacement" and of course that never materialized.

Also remember that the record high-water mark for concurrent active users on the Duke4 forums was on 3 February 2014, which was when Duke Nukem: Mass Destruction was announced. If a new main-series Duke game is truly announced, we may break that record. We are still relevant to Duke. It is Duke whose relevance has been neglected.

I will say that if a new user posts some low-quality bait, even out of ignorance or naivete, then I would predict that some established users would respond with poking or "hammering the nail" rather than engaging constructively. I hope that's something We as a userbase can improve upon. It is possible to be socially inept while technically adept, and we should not scare these people away. Maybe they can learn something from us, and us from them.

I'm glad you're saying you wish to avoid tribalism. A constructed identity though I really am not so sure would serve any purpose but being detrimental to how organic people I think you're saying you want to be on here, though. I don't think there is anything to force and the identity that will spontaneously form is going to be the only one that's timelessly valid and viable. Even and maybe especially if the end goal is to turn Duke4 into a brand (?) somehow then it shouldn't be done that disservice.

I think it's funny how the word identity got thrown, because every now and then someone will think they're an edgy free thinker, but they're really regurgitating 4chan/Reddit/Twitter bullshit on the website of a Duke 3D port. I see absolutely zero identity in that at all since by definition it's the same topics as everywhere else brought onto a website niche creatives frequent specifically to avoid. Now of course people are naturally going to exchange over trending topics and I wouldn't see the point in even just thinking of controlling any of that, be it the individual initiatives or the general pattern, would be nuts - that's normal and supposedly healthy human behavior. Just that is it and so there is nothing unique or distinct about it. Now, whenever I do feel a sense of distinctiveness and quality from this place is whenever it's possible to have trust and conversations such as in this very thread, but maybe you'll agree getting there took the initiation of some momentum 'breaking' some apparent usual pattern (rather reassuringly, though, it didn't take much).

Disconnected part of my reply: really it just fucking trips me out going to a Build-related message board and the two third of the daily posts have to do with fucking #ElonMusk, I'm not saying I hate it per se, I'm just saying, wake me up whenever this dude finally releases a map. Or if any of you actually were serious caring about that shit then they would have made one themselves and pulled off a creative stunt such as releasing the .txt for free but the actual .map file for eight bucks. That would be identity and an original thing to do, and would already be there if any creative actually cared about the guy. Gossiping - with projections to taste - may be fun to some and all but it's certainly rather universal as a distraction and so just the lowest common denominator. A person can't be original by succumbing to groupthink nor speaking in tabloids.

Also hate to say it, but could it be that some of you really are low-key jealous of Doomworld? What is it, blinded by the fucking numbers and download counts and all? Who cares? Is this your baseline for even thinking of a competition?

Not to mention I don't even see the point in having competition also when it comes to forums. This message board coexists with the Discord as well as with the Come Get Some! forums that have been dead for years because people keep coming back here hoping for creative feedback, based on the apparent activity, that they barely get (but also don't necessarily deserve if the interest just isn't there - I'm certainly not saying change anything or force interactions). AMC used to be the main creative hub contemporarily with DN-R and a shit load of other fan message boards and what do you know, the community was doing just fine since it couldn't help being what it organically was and so of course it was always the same people frequenting all the sites and participating just the same. I don't think anyone at the time gave a shit about some phantasmal competition, it was just the Dukers/Builders absolutely doing their thing. Having multiple platforms is one more non-issue if the community itself is strong enough and so I'm not even sure why that's being discussed.

[Danukem]

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 01:19 AM, said:

Disconnected part of my reply: really it just fucking trips me out going to a Build-related message board and the two third of the daily posts have to do with fucking #ElonMusk.

Are you sure about that? I can think of some other topics that get far more attention, although you might not approve of those either. In fact, I'm pretty familiar with the contents of this thread (I know, I know, just shoot me) and there's virtually nothing about Musk or Twitter in it at all. With the forum pretty dead and not much going on the discussion section, I'm sorry to say that this thread contains most of the general discussion that has gone on around here recently. Now if you are talking about off-topic on the duke4 discord, that's another story.

This mini-explosion of interest about what goes on in the general discussion section has a surreal quality. As has been pointed out, it involves only a handful of posters (myself included). As far as I can tell, the people with a sudden interest in it aren't very familiar with the contents of said posts, and only have vague impressions. Yet, somehow, these posts amongst a small group of people that others have only a vague impression of, are important and impactful enough that we all need to engage in soul-searching about it?

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 01:19 AM, said:

AMC used to be the main creative hub contemporarily with DN-R and a shit load of other fan message boards and what do you know, the community was doing just fine since it couldn't help being what it organically was and so of course it was always the same people frequenting all the sites and participating just the same.

This reminds me of something sad. Alejandro stopped paying for the AMC boards and now they are gone. A lot of history was there. There were some great maps and mods made and those threads detailed their creation and reactions to them in real time. For example, I miss being able to look at the thread for a Mario TC that I coded and some very talented mappers and at least one modeler worked on. The moral is for all of us that if we value what is on a discussion board, we have to preserve it. Don't assume that it will be there for you to look at down the road. Even in a discussion thread of questionable overall quality, some of us may have written out worthwhile thoughts and had interesting exchanges that are worth preserving.

[Phredreeke]

Danukem, on 13 November 2022 - 02:13 AM, said:

Are you sure about that? I can think of some other topics that get far more attention, although you might not approve of those either. In fact, I'm pretty familiar with the contents of this thread (I know, I know, just shoot me) and there's virtually nothing about Musk or Twitter in it at all. With the forum pretty dead and not much going on the discussion section, I'm sorry to say that this thread contains most of the general discussion that has gone on around here recently. Now if you are talking about off-topic on the duke4 discord, that's another story.

Yeah Musk gets brought up quite a lot in the Discord,

[ck3D]

Danukem, on 13 November 2022 - 02:13 AM, said:

Are you sure about that? I can think of some other topics that get far more attention, although you might not approve of those either. In fact, I'm pretty familiar with the contents of this thread (I know, I know, just shoot me) and there's virtually nothing about Musk or Twitter in it at all. With the forum pretty dead and not much going on the discussion section, I'm sorry to say that this thread contains most of the general discussion that has gone on around here recently. Now if you are talking about off-topic on the duke4 discord, that's another story.

Actually good call there, both in how much the other generic topics don't especially catch my interest (nothing personal either, it just is redundant with every other corner of the Internet and so I wouldn't trust it as a baseline for any attempt at a constructed identity, and just that in fact would get in the way of just letting the people be), and how there has to be some mental overlap with what I'm seeing on the Duke4 Discord (but I wouldn't say very crucial levels of it). Of course Musk was just one example out of a possible dozen subjects and hashtags, though. Funny story is I resisted Discord altogether for years and the Duke4 server in particular I eventually was 'lured' into joining by other mappers and their argument that convinced me was 'the level design talk and general level of discussion is greater than on the website'. Which only partially turned out to be true since it's really the same people who are the target demographic, and ultimately frequent both platforms. 'Level of discussion' turned out to be the exact same as in, people are and will be people with their baseline yet unique strengths and weaknesses and regardless of context, if you can get along or resonate with a profile then you'll most likely have interesting discussions regardless of the platform. That means that also can and does happen on completely eccentric apps such as fucking Facebook messenger, too.

I do appreciate the surreal quality of the banter on here in general, it does feel like a bit of a losers' club but in no way do I mean that in a derogatory manner since it's all people who either reject or at the very least question or doubt society's current definition of a winner, which is one crucial win in itself. I don't think any of this is about soul-searching at the end of the day. More a concern and reminder if needed that visibility is a responsibility (something I know you and many people in this thread already are familiar with, but maybe occasionally struggle with handling), which means if the role of this place is to keep being an attractive central hub for creatives who fuel the community in the long run (and new ones always keep popping up, too, which is fantastic and never to be taken for granted) then maybe it shouldn't be perceived as 'toxic'. This is not even about whether it really is toxic or not, just the fact that it's perceived as such and seems to have been for years is a sign of something wrong somewhere. Of course there are crazy fanatics and extremists (of all kinds) who thrive on inventing issues wherever there aren't any for personal stimulation but that's just noise I very well can pretend may not even exist. The stigma didn't make itself up though and if some Build enthusiasts keep actively avoiding the place then maybe there actually is some kind of issue somewhere that would have shit to do with freedom of speech and so perhaps that has to do with behavior. I think most regulars on here actually are intelligent people you can talk with once you get to know them, but the front has to be uninviting? I could imagine the average user thinking the site staff's open-mindedness, benevolence and patience means they're encouraged to play around with extremes with no repercussions at all. I can totally see both sides of the card there.

I also lament how AMC went down but everything is temporary (even our desperate attempts at archival in order to feel like we matter) and so in a way, we had to be prepared, it's just that it happened so suddenly. Kim struggling with, then abandoning the otherwise smooth-sailing ships that were DN-R and its forums in the late 2000's or so I believe also was another big hit the community had to tank, the activity on those boards used to be really fucking cool - but at least that content is still archived on Duke4, and I'm glad about that.

[Danukem]

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 03:06 AM, said:

I do appreciate the surreal quality of the banter on here in general, it does feel like a bit of a losers' club but in no way do I mean that in a derogatory manner

These words made me laugh out loud, and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner.

Just to be clear: I think the current meta discussion about the forum is surreal. However, I don't think the earlier discussions in this thread were surreal at all. I can see how it would come across as a loser's club though because a lot us are pessimistic, not to mention some participants struggling with mental illness.