[Phredreeke]

Meanwhile on discord we are discussing pig orgasms

[ck3D]

Danukem, on 13 November 2022 - 03:22 AM, said:

These words made me laugh out loud, and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner.

Just to be clear: I think the current meta discussion about the forum is surreal. However, I don't think the earlier discussions in this thread were surreal at all. I can see how it would come across as a loser's club though because a lot us are pessimistic, not to mention some participants struggling with mental illness.

I legitimately do not mean anything derogatory there, though. The social definition of both terms these days I genuinely feel is fucked, or was switched around. Striving for what society dictates and encourages as caricatural/extreme 'winning' behavior really can bring the worst out in people, or completely mislead them into the depths of existential confusion. That's a whole other topic I don't really care nor have the time to discuss on here, but this is my honest position. There is a lot of pride to take in being a (relative) loser these days. A lot of so-called 'winners' win at the expense of letting go of basic and vital concerns which to me renders them hollow inside - when they haven't become downright toxic to their immediate environment or supposed cause. That's also when they usually stop producing anything of substantial interest. I think this image may be especially important to deconstruct (or at least, think about deconstructing) when someone is struggling with mental illness, for perspective and relativity, since that's when they are vulnerable to this world's beat the most.

[Forge]

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 03:06 AM, said:

The stigma didn't make itself up though and if some Build enthusiasts keep actively avoiding the place then maybe there actually is some kind of issue somewhere that would have shit to do with freedom of speech and so perhaps that has to do with behavior. I think most regulars on here actually are intelligent people you can talk with once you get to know them, but the front has to be uninviting? I could imagine the average user thinking the site staff's open-mindedness, benevolence and patience means they're encouraged to play around with extremes with no repercussions at all. I can totally see both sides of the card there.

The toxic reputation comes from the welcoming committee that used to greet the people that wandered in off the street with the "I have this great idea, I want everyone else here to make it a reality. No. I don't code and I barely map. No, I have nothing done and nothing to show, I just want the rest of you to do it while I steer the project from my comfy chair."

People also seem to memory-hole how bad people like Mikko were back then. He got away with murder at 3dr and brought his attitude with him to this site. It was tolerated for a bit, but then the even more toxic people (and Tx) ran him off.

Most of the welcoming committee are gone, we hardly get people wandering in off the street like that anymore, and when we do, the usual response is, "Do you have any of the work done? If you can show us some effort, then we'll take your idea in consideration if it shows signs of promise." Or they just get ignored.

People seem to forget how many people used to show up here back around 2009-2011 and start shit, or just become a general nuisance, get drummed off the site, then go running off to doomworld, or wherever, crying about being bullied.

This website (duke4), in it's current lifecycle, is just a placeholder and a gateway to the discord channel. Or we get random people on here that ask for help - I can't get this mod to work, I can't figure out how to finish this map, does somebody know where in the con I can make a certain change, etc. They get their answer (politely) and then they wander off or join the discord. Most of them never make it down into these discussions and get offended by that scary free-speech boogeyman.

[ck3D]

Right, I see. I still occasionally see new members that totally fit your first description join, though, and then seemingly think following the local 'code' (regardless of how projected or constructed) will permit them to get by and fit in despite really not daring to produce anything, or being an evolutional step up from the 'Reddit types' (which in itself is fine being; as a mapper I actually want new players on here, regardless of how casual). I also am critical of my own constructions here, because there are a lot of people I respect for this or that or those reason(s) on this website and really just lament that more regularly than I'd wish, I actually keep having to defend some of those people's credibility, or insisting on nuancing the general reputation I regularly hear this website has, when this isn't even my website. I don't think I mind how every creative's work is received at all on here - all seems perfectly fair to me there, except personally I would love to see more emphasis on content creation, but am very well aware that's my unfiltered selfish ideal and so wouldn't buy it for a quarter.

I never gave enough of a hoot to even frequent 3DR and think I must have been on a 'hiatus' whenever some of the situations went down - just saying for perspective. But I also am all for forgiving past mistakes (of course also depending on gravity) once people have clearly learned, and positively writing history in the now. And again, I've checked Doomworld before and am familiar with bits and bobs of the Doom scene (I'm not well-versed in it but it's also a great game I grew up playing), but not about most of the drama because I think if no one's claims or complaints ever really held any water, then surely enough they aren't worth my time considering them. An actual problem would be something else though - and, again, I do directly see quite the amount of vocabulary on here (maybe that's all it comes down to at the end of the day, in order to escape clichés?) that I personally think is regressive and unnecessarily provocative - which especially is frustrating when I myself am familiar with the poster(s) and essentially know that they really are better than that and how they choose to paint themselves - which then comes off to the masses as groupthink, diluting the actual essence. I think communication (most of the time) is simple - you get what you put in, which means in order to control it, you need to control what you put in. Fine if someone doesn't, but then the resulting outcome will speak, still and if the end goal is mass popularity then they probably shouldn't act surprised when they do not achieve it; or maybe they should straight up disregard such illusory ambitions instead, and better focus on whatever it is they're doing and contributing, even if that's just posting.

I appreciate your time and effort replying to me.

[Reaper_Man]

Lol I didn't realize we were livetweeting the fight, obviously I got absorbed and then had to clean up after everyone left. I expected Zhang to win, but not by submission. I was surprised by Pereira's win, at the end of the 1st if Izzy had 10 more seconds I think it would have ended there. But then in the 5th when Goddard stopped it it almost seemed early. Especially from the angle above the cage behind Izzy, Pereira threw a few shots but from that angle you see only 1 or 2 actually hit him. Not that a few more seconds would have really mattered, he was out on his feet.

Hendricks266, on 12 November 2022 - 05:35 PM, said:

post

Okay, I give up. What’s the story about Doomworld? You guys seem really bizarrely obsessed with them, and I genuinely have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m not apart of that community, I don’t even have an account there. I know this factually because I heard their forum got hacked, and I checked for an account to do a personal security audit, and nothing came up. Can I get a bias-less response from anyone? Remember that I’m not titillated by words like “woke” and I’m not offended by concepts like “community guidelines” and I’m not dramatic enough to think everything I don’t like “is censorship”. So I need a bullshit-less explanation that doesn't rely on complaining about freeze peach.

Anyway, Hendricks - I don’t want to collect a giant list of specific posts or comments here, for one that’s just way not worth my time, for two I don’t want anyone to feel singled out or targeted because that isn’t my intention, and finally even if I did all of that, I’m not interested in having the ensuing debate with this hypothetical person over the content of their posts and how I misinterpreted their meaning (no matter how in good faith or not this debate would even be). Instead let me give different examples.

Spoiler

Okay, I wanna preface this, I promise this is relevant. I own and operate the largest Portal and Portal 2 mapping community forum since the first game came out. I think I bought the domain and setup the forum the weekend the first trailer came out, because I knew it would be a hit and that players would quickly want more puzzles and it would be up to the then-non-existent community to provide that. Over the years other sites and forums would bubble up and eventually shut down or collapse, and through inertia my site became and remained the place where the community coalesced. At our peak we had a couple thousand users a day, a number which at first quickly and then very slowly tapered off as years and years went by without a new entry into the game series. The final nail in the coffin was the Steam Workshop integration, where now players didn’t need to seek out maps from a third party host, they could upload them directly and players could download them directly. As you can imagine, this shifted the dynamic of the community even more and basically all that remained were die-hard fans and puzzle designers. My own involvement became very minimal, for one I’m not much of a puzzle designer, for another I was more interested in and committed to maintaining a space for others because I know the value of a community built on a solid foundation. And the damage caused by major sites and forums going offline can have on a community, in no small part to my experience with the various Duke forums that have died. (I noticed no one mentioned the TotalConversion.com forums in their lists of Build community sites, cue the “tears in rain” speech.) At some point a Discord was setup and I only pop in there when someone reports a problem with the site, most recently how the forum - even though not really being used - is overrun by spam bots. The owner of the Discord has asked on multiple occasions to sell or transfer the domain to them, and I won’t for one simple reason: I don’t trust anyone but myself to maintain the content online at all costs. Over 15 years of forum content and mapping content would be lost if a less committed steward decided it wasn’t worth the expense. Again, I look to my experience as a user in other forums and communities, such as Dukeworld, for this exact scenario.

I say all of this to point out that I have many years of first-hand knowledge and experience with operating a gaming web forum and online community, geared primarily towards creatives, centered around an IP that has laid fallow for significant amounts of time, resulting in the only remaining members being the extraordinarily committed, the “too old to learn anything new”, and the non-creative hangers on. The parallels with a community like Duke4 aren’t exact, but on a lot of levels very similar.

Or to put it another way: when it comes to trolls, especially those of a political bend the past 10 years or so, I’ve seen all the tricks, I know all the moves, I know all the code-words, all the dog whistles, I know the layers and layers of irony and meta-irony. Online gamers are some of the weirdest people on the planet, especially in a post-gamergate world, and I’ve been online for too long and around them too much to not have picked up the lingo.

As for giving you examples: if I were to point to a meme that, on a surface level, looks completely innocuous if kind of just… weird and nonsensical, like using toddler language, and I say to you “hey this actually is a pro-genocide or anti-semitic message”, I’m telling you the truth because I know the truth. And you’ll basically have 1 of 3 responses: One, you don’t know the truth, so you think I’m insane, because nothing on the surface remotely suggests anything like that. Two, you do know the truth and you’re in on it, and part of the game is never admitting it, so you deny the message and also say I’m crazy for suggesting such a thing. That’s the point of using layers and layers of subterfuge and meta-irony. Or three, you agree only because you’re also deeply embedded in “internet culture” and also know the game and also know all the tricks.

Or to make a more explicit example: If someone were to make a post composed entirely of “13%” with nothing else, I know exactly what they’re saying, who they’re saying it to, what they’re saying it about, and what flags they’re sending up to like-minded people, including the built-in plausible deniability of any of this should someone call this out. Of course on the surface, there’s nothing offensive about a simple number, right? Why you’d have to be crazy to be upset by that! But that’s the game. I bet you know all of this too, I mean how could you not with your experience running a gaming community and running into trolls?

So to bring this around to the commentary about They Live, this is why I added the words “liberal elite” to the use of the word “Hollywood”. The imagery of They Live has been co-opted by the alt-right because they see themselves as heroes and cultural saviors, they alone able to show everyone the truth about the world and their enemies - the “liberal elite” in control of Hollywood - as the ghoulish aliens controlling everything. Maybe you didn’t know this, in which case welcome to the secret 4th response: using people who don’t know the game as unknowing pawns.

See, if I saw someone say “watching a Disney show feels like an act of resistance!” I’d say that’s pretty weird. But if someone then responded to me saying, “I know right? Don’t you just hate how Disney pushes wokeness and everyone cheers them on?” I’d be really skeptical of this person, because I know the game and I know what they’re really trying to say. They’ll deny it if I call them out on it, in fact they probably hope I do that, because if they make me look radical then it attracts others to them (or at very least, away from me). But if I didn’t know the game, and I just saw people whose complaints about Disney aligning with mine, and they use words like “woke” and “progressive” over and over to describe the things we’re both complaining about, sooner or later those ideas may start sticking or those terms may start entering my vocabulary.

This is called radicalization. This is “the alt-right pipeline”.

And to preempt any confusion: No, I’m not calling you alt-right. No, I’m not saying are engaging in subterfuge. No, I’m not saying anyone is racist or using racist language. No, I’m not saying you allow racist messaging. I’m not saying anything like that. All I am saying is that, as two people who have run large gaming communities through their full lifecycles, we’ve both seen some shit. We’ve both been exposed to the extremes, and to the clever language tricks. I’m not fooled by it. I have to assume you aren’t either. It's funny you use that specific tweet because I've been in plenty of situations where I felt like that was the case as well and responded with it, and that wasn't my intention. So I apologize if you felt I was misrepresenting, intentionally or otherwise, your statements.

The relevance to Duke4 and to “the culture” is this: What do you think the response should be if someone posts “13%”? Do you know what’s going on when that happens? Given your experience I have to assume that you do, so if that’s the case: What then? I go back to my previous message, the real question: How do you reconcile wanting to grow the use of EDuke among indie devs, with allowing subversive racist messaging on the grounds of “free speech”?

This is hypothetical of course, I’m not looking for an answer. It’s just food for thought.

Radar, on 12 November 2022 - 07:54 PM, said:

That's half of America.

Conservatives wish they were half of anything. On average they make up about 1/3rd of any given election. Conservatives love to style themselves as “the silent majority”, which I’ve always found hilarious as they are neither the majority, nor do they ever shut their idiot mouths.

Jimmy, on 12 November 2022 - 10:35 PM, said:

Daily Reminder: Reagan was a crypto-leftist.

Rogan is a 90s liberal. He thinks that supporting gay marriage and legal weed is the zenith of radical left-wing policies. He’s such a leftist that he’s explicitly told his audience to vote Republican.

Phredreeke, on 13 November 2022 - 01:17 AM, said:

When it comes to the culture war, it’s generally the alt-right that people have a problem with, not stuffy old conservatives like Dennis Prager.

This is a joke, right? Either you’re joking, or lying. Take a look at Prager’s social media right now and it’s nothing but culture war memes. Take a look at their most popular YouTube and the subjects are nothing but clickbait right-wing culture war propaganda. I’m sure you think Jordan Peterson is “just a motivational speaker” too.

Danukem, on 13 November 2022 - 02:13 AM, said:

This mini-explosion of interest about what goes on in the general discussion section has a surreal quality. As has been pointed out, it involves only a handful of posters (myself included). As far as I can tell, the people with a sudden interest in it aren't very familiar with the contents of said posts, and only have vague impressions. Yet, somehow, these posts amongst a small group of people that others have only a vague impression of, are important and impactful enough that we all need to engage in soul-searching about it?

You know, lurking is a thing. I've been watching posts here for like 3 years now rolling my eyes every time someone complains about "woke Hollywood". I knew exactly this sort of whirlwind of bullshit would start if and when I eventually spoke up. If it’s any consolation, I expected never really to say anything, and it wasn’t until someone else posted the exact thought I have - Why does every thread invariably turn into “weird bullshit”, which I would describe as “right-wing culture war circle jerking” by the same 5 or 6 people - that it seemed the opportune moment. As an aside, I’ve noticed that the main thing everyone has disagreed with me is less about if it’s “culture war”, and more that their culture war isn’t specifically right-wing. It seems less that people disagree with me that they’re doing it, and more disagree that it’s a bad thing.

[Forge]

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 10:25 AM, said:

I would love to see more emphasis on content creation, but am very well aware that's my unfiltered selfish ideal and so wouldn't buy it for a quarter.

this goes back to times have changed and interaction has changed.
A lot of the content - especially from the larger projects (amc, wgrealms, aa, etc) - have their own discord channels & they may occasionally post an update here, but don't count on it. Most of the activity happens there.
i.e. The amc squad channel has a lot of traffic that doesn't happen here anymore. Not just people talking about amc either, but people cutting their teeth learning to map and other topics. Same at the AA channel, but to a lesser extent.
I rarely ever go to the duke4 discord but I'm assuming that the same is true.
This website forum is simply here to maintain a traditional website presence.


Crocodile tears about some right-wing echo chamber are pretty much that. Crocodile tears. If someone doesn't like reading other people's opinions about religion, politics, or non-game related subjects they can either participate so additional points of view are given representation, or they can kindly move along. Nobody is forcing them to read the threads, and said threads aren't chasing anyone away as claimed without proof. Complaining for the sake of complaining are empty words from a backseat moderator. The liberal use of right-wing (whatever the fuck that is) tossed around in a condescending manner, and thinly veiled as actually meaning alt-right, only tells me there is an agenda behind the attempt at cancelling the ability to have open discussions and having the free exchange of ideas.

[Reaper_Man]

Forge, on 13 November 2022 - 12:03 PM, said:

If someone doesn't like

On the contrary, I love reading them.

[Forge]

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 12:17 PM, said:

On the contrary, I love reading them.

Spoiler

probably
i don't agree with sexualizing children and I'm not a pedophile

you forgot to call me rightwing though. I'm sure you'll get around to actually dropping names on your hitlist eventually.

[Reaper_Man]

I can't keep up with your constant edits, so I'll just wait for the edit timer to run out for any revisions. You know how to use the post preview, right? Or is this the equivalent of thinking of a retort in the shower the day after the argument?

[Aristotle Gumball]

Pay attention to me too, I keep sending you DM's. I love you.

[Forge]

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 12:42 PM, said:

Spoiler

is that supposed to be an insult?

i guess it could be

i think democrats and republicans are basically the two arms of the same crime family - and if you were so well-versed on exactly what people on this site believe, you'd know that.


good luck with your reset-era attempts at book burning

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

Lol I didn't realize we were livetweeting the fight, obviously I got absorbed and then had to clean up after everyone left. I expected Zhang to win, but not by submission. I was surprised by Pereira's win, at the end of the 1st if Izzy had 10 more seconds I think it would have ended there. But then in the 5th when Goddard stopped it it almost seemed early. Especially from the angle above the cage behind Izzy, Pereira threw a few shots but from that angle you see only 1 or 2 actually hit him. Not that a few more seconds would have really mattered, he was out on his feet.

I agree with your analysis. I don't think the stoppage in Izzy v Perreira was early, although a few more seconds would have been okay just to quell any doubts.

As for the forum stuff -- I have read your posts but I don't have much more to say that wouldn't simply be repeating positions I had already laid out. I will say I'm not in favor of a blanket prohibition on dogwhistles and other innocuous looking content that has... let's say bad... origins. That doesn't mean there aren't situations where such content needs to be removed and the poster dealt with in some fashion. These are things that can be discussed and dealt with on a case by case basis. Believe it or not, we do take it seriously when something is reported. It may not always result in the person reporting being satisfied with the result, but often it does. Now I'm going to go away for a while and enjoy my Sunday.

[Phredreeke]

The Doomworld hate came from one of the moderators on the site got butthurt over a WAD having a crucified Lara Croft as an Easter egg in it, they deemed it to be the last drop of misogyny coming from the mapper, banned him and demanded the author of the WAD strip out this Easter egg if he wanted his WAD to be allowed on the forum.

The second incident came from Impie making a cute TC for GZDoom that made fun of COVID restrictions which got him banned from the forum after moderators naturally raised a big stink over it. I ended up reaching out to him on YouTube inviting him to join this site.

The third incident was regarding the Blade of Agony WAD, where after the release of the third episode the moderators came up with a laundry list of changes to be made to it. There was ONE change I actually agreed with (removing the misgendering of ZDoom dev Randi Heit) but others were as ridiculous as one of the bosses having a nip slip in her death animation.

This is the same kind of deranged control freaks that attempted to cancel Ion Fury and everyone involved in it over a freaking soap bottle and TerminX saying something to the end that babies can’t be transgender.

[Jimmy]

Discord is degenerate. Reject modernity. Embrace tradition. Post on forums.

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

Rogan is a 90s liberal. He thinks that supporting gay marriage and legal weed is the zenith of radical left-wing policies. He’s such a leftist that he’s explicitly told his audience to vote Republican.

You're so busy trying to be the smartest person in the room that you didn't even read what I wrote. This has literally nothing to do with what I wrote, and is even a bizarre response contextually.

[Phredreeke]

The cook got drunk and all the whores they shrunk
Onto the size of dessert plates
But me I'm happy cause I got my little nappy
And some opium to set me straight

[Radar]

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

As for giving you examples: if I were to point to a meme that, on a surface level, looks completely innocuous if kind of just… weird and nonsensical, like using toddler language, and I say to you “hey this actually is a pro-genocide or anti-semitic message”, I’m telling you the truth because I know the truth. And you’ll basically have 1 of 3 responses: One, you don’t know the truth, so you think I’m insane, because nothing on the surface remotely suggests anything like that. Two, you do know the truth and you’re in on it, and part of the game is never admitting it, so you deny the message and also say I’m crazy for suggesting such a thing. That’s the point of using layers and layers of subterfuge and meta-irony. Or three, you agree only because you’re also deeply embedded in “internet culture” and also know the game and also know all the tricks.

There's a fourth option you're not considering: it's that people like me sit at the edge of my seat in laughter at the mental gymnastics and textwalls you write about a harmless cartoon frog.

Btw, 13% of the population is responsible for 52% of the murder in America. Is that what you meant by the "13%" "dogwhistle"? Geez dude, what a scary number. Jewish neo-cons like Ben Shapiro (that the alt-right hates) repeat that ad nauseam. Go touch some grass.

Reaper_Man, on 13 November 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

Conservatives wish they were half of anything. On average they make up about 1/3rd of any given election. Conservatives love to style themselves as “the silent majority”, which I’ve always found hilarious as they are neither the majority, nor do they ever shut their idiot mouths.

Projected House results in this election would prove otherwise. Also, demographic shifts in these past two elections show that Republicans are on track to win the popular vote in the near future.

[jkas789]

ck3D, on 13 November 2022 - 01:19 AM, said:

Disconnected part of my reply: really it just fucking trips me out going to a Build-related message board and the two third of the daily posts have to do with fucking #ElonMusk, I'm not saying I hate it per se, I'm just saying, wake me up whenever this dude finally releases a map.

You do realize that we mostly where making fun of the dude on offtopic right? And we also where making fun of the trashfire that the situation kicked of right?

Quote

Also hate to say it, but could it be that some of you really are low-key jealous of Doomworld? What is it, blinded by the fucking numbers and download counts and all? Who cares? Is this your baseline for even thinking of a competition?

Nope. I just dislike a lot of the people there based on my interactions. Downloads and numbers have nothing to do with it. You know you can dislike the artist but still enjoy a piece of art right?

Also competition is good. Case in point Raze.

Quote

This is not even about whether it really is toxic or not, just the fact that it's perceived as such and seems to have been for years is a sign of something wrong somewhere. Of course there are crazy fanatics and extremists (of all kinds) who thrive on inventing issues wherever there aren't any for personal stimulation but that's just noise I very well can pretend may not even exist. The stigma didn't make itself up though and if some Build enthusiasts keep actively avoiding the place then maybe there actually is some kind of issue somewhere that would have shit to do with freedom of speech and so perhaps that has to do with behavior.

Limiting freedom of speech is directly tied to forcing behavior, lets not be obtuse about it. And, why is it there has to be something wrong huh?

You know, maybe this is the nostalgia on the onset of the complete sanitation of the internet and the end of the digital wild west, but there was a time where forums all had different identities and actually getting in one meant you had to adapt to them and learn their ways instead of having the forum adapt to you. Where forum culture actually meant something and you had to interact and lurk to be able to understand the standing of people within the community and your relation to that.

Now everything is all damned sanitized, and all the flavor has been stripped and the edge tamed down because someone new might get offended or be turned off and never come back. It doesn't matter now if you physically have to click on a thread "Spicy topicless thread - enter at own risk" and you have to make the conscious decision to interact with it like most rational and adults do because God forbid you see something that offends your sensibilities. There is this fucking paranoia where we all have to be friends and everyone deserves being treated like a new born baby because people can't handle others disagreeing or not immediately kissing their ass.

It doesn't matter that everything in General Discussion is a catch all for different topics. It doesn't matter that it's a board that you can literally never interact with. It doesn't matter anymore that lets be honest, all the duke threads are mostly clean of political opinions unless it relates to the topic on hand. Because God forbid you have to physically click on the General Discussion link and poke your eyes here and actively engage in here or the Outhouse to be able to see this. It's the same damn fucking thing with offtopic on Discord.

Oh no woe is me, tommy420xxx6969 disagrees with me on x/y/z whatever should I do with my life now?

Why did the mods not ban him so that I can't see his toxic posts that I could literally avoid to see if I had exercised my free will?

I hate how society has turned out, where personal responsibility is a myth and being respectful to someone is not a courtesy we extend out of understanding that it helps us socialize but out of a fucking obligation to be able to socialize. I hate that I have to literally pay attention to what pronouns someone types in their obscure profile that I never pay attention to because if not I may get a complaint and then banned.

And it specially annoys me that people have forgotten that they don't have to respond to other weirdos on the internet. You can literally walk away from your computer, go prepare a taco and come back. What a jackass you don't know from the US writes on a forum hosted in the Netherlands shouldn't affect what your whole life when you literally live on the other side of the world and will never interact with him irl.

The separation between irl and the internet has been completely lost.

I don't know where I was going with this anymore.

[Forge]

The term right winger is thrown around so much, someone on the admin should make the site's filter change it to 'clown-posse'. It'd make the reads more interesting.

[Phredreeke]

So let's say we purge the conservatives. What next? Are people suddenly gonna pop up and make content for EDuke32 which at one point was technically superior but which has now been overtaken by other engines? Realistically people will make games for what engine they're familiar with and for someone learning a new engine it makes a hell of a lot more sense to learn Unity or Unreal given the massive resources available as well as being on just about every platform.

Maybe Duke4's mindset remains in the 90s but that was the last time Duke Nukem was actually relevant.

[ck3D]

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 08:01 PM, said:

You do realize that we mostly where making fun of the dude on offtopic right? And we also where making fun of the trashfire that the situation kicked of right?

I absolutely do not care, I mentioned one hashtag out of a possible many, if you're sincerely curious about understanding my position then try and take a step back and visualize the hypocrisy I see in completely justifiably holding the position of criticizing the corruption of mass media and other pseudo-journalistic deviances, and then going around online spreading their manufactured terms. That's not being nearly as original or critical as you think, that's literally playing along and carrying the torch. One instance of how feeble that mindset is is how not just on here, but on the Internet at large, #SJW used to be a trending term until it slipped off Twitter or whatever other bullshit platform some love to trash talk, yet heavily consume and support, and soon enough it will be replaced with another divisive cheap thrill of the month when a more profitable one comes up. Take a moment to consider the source of those terms as in, who actually spreads then exploits them, and monetarily benefits from the public essentially liking and reposting them; then another one to consider who directly supports if not sustains those platforms. It's never personal because I never blame the people themselves, but (again not just on here, but online in general) one just can't say literally parroting slogans is original thought and criticism to be proud of, not to mention the waste of human energy and potential when one's very concerns in the first place were installed or stimulated by the machine. The whole idea is to separate the people into conflicting factions in order to create specialized target demographics for boosting the economy at the expense of most everything, including their core individuality. I don't think most people hopping on those trains realize not just how they're on one track only out of a possible many including their very own for the time being, but also who manufactured the trains and decided on the destination.

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 08:01 PM, said:

Also competition is good. Case in point Raze.

So it's good because it drives progress, right? So that means you're aware this website/the Internet/the world deserves progress alright.

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 08:01 PM, said:

Limiting freedom of speech is directly tied to forcing behavior, lets not be obtuse about it.

I never ever encouraged limiting freedom of speech at all, I'm talking about maybe, just maybe getting better, you know, and refining behavior, a.k.a. think before you post and pick your own words if you're going to claim individuality. It is my freedom of speech to call it whenever I see someone whether being or acting like an imbecile (freedom of speech isn't a 'get out of jail' card and I dislike seeing it abused as such); and usually that's out of sheer frustration because I'm sick and tired of the people's intelligence and intrinsic potential constantly being insulted and manipulated so much in front of their very eyes.

Very honestly I didn't read the rest because you lost me a bit at 'forum culture' (2023 is around the corner) and because it mostly sounded like a basic personal rant which you yourself eventually recognized (I'm probably doing just the same, whatever). It's just people will keep their minds occupied with just about every little thing I swear (and think it's fascinating). Like the whole Doomworld thing is interesting yeah, but anyone with basic common sense gets to see and analyze each respective dilemma for themselves then move on, talking about that shit for years sounds sterile as fuck in addition to forcing another gap. Occasionally I also see people publicly spill their own sexual insecurities left and right (no pun intended) without even seeming to realize that is exactly what they are doing, and completely oblivious that their secret code was cracked a long time ago, falling into more of the same pits in fear of some plastic apocalypse (not the literal Biblical one). I think that's being a victim (to whichever extent), which isn't exactly shameful given how aggressive the system is designed to be and in no way equates personal failure at all, but does mean one has the possibility to pick themselves up.

Last thing jkas, I appreciate you being on here and am actively looking forward to a Duke/Build contribution from you sometime.

[Jimmy]

Why do lefties feel compelled to talk so much?

[jkas789]

Phredreeke, on 13 November 2022 - 08:47 PM, said:

So let's say we purge the conservatives. What next? Are people suddenly gonna pop up and make content for EDuke32 which at one point was technically superior but which has now been overtaken by other engines? Realistically people will make games for what engine they're familiar with and for someone learning a new engine it makes a hell of a lot more sense to learn Unity or Unreal given the massive resources available as well as being on just about every platform.

Maybe Duke4's mindset remains in the 90s but that was the last time Duke Nukem was actually relevant.

They aren't. DnD did the same thing and they are bleeding customers. WH40k, video games etc did the same thing trying to appeal to a demographic that doesn't give a fuck about the hobby. Because it is not about the hobby, it is about power.

People like to pretend that duke4 is not popular because it is full of toxic right wing wankers, but the reality is that even without the right wing wankers duke4 would be same. Because the reality is that Build is not really newbie friendly and people gravitate to hobbies that have lower entry difficulties. Because Duke Nukem was never as popular as and controversial Doom and will never be. Duke Nukem also didn't have a sequel worth a shit that revitalized interest in the original games.

Using "toxicity" in the forums is jut an excuse.

[ck3D]

Jimmy, on 13 November 2022 - 09:16 PM, said:

Why do lefties feel compelled to talk so much?

I thought anyone could?

[jkas789]

Quote

absolutely do not care, I mentioned one hashtag out of a possible many, if you're sincerely curious about understanding my position then try and take a step back and visualize the hypocrisy I see in completely justifiably holding the position of criticizing the corruption of mass media and other pseudo-journalistic deviances, and then going around online spreading their manufactured terms. That's not being nearly as original or critical as you think, that's literally playing along and carrying the torch. One instance of how feeble that mindset is is how not just on here, but on the Internet at large, #SJW used to be a trending term until it slipped off Twitter or whatever other bullshit platform some love to trash talk, yet heavily consume and support, and soon enough it will be replaced with another divisive cheap thrill of the month when a more profitable one comes up. Take a moment to consider the source of those terms as in, who actually spreads then exploits them, and monetarily benefits from the public essentially liking and reposting them; then another one to consider who directly supports if not sustains those platforms. It's never personal because I never blame the people themselves, but (again not just on here, but online in general) one just can't say literally parroting slogans is original thought and criticism to be proud of, not to mention the waste of human energy and potential when one's very concerns in the first place were installed or stimulated by the machine. The whole idea is to separate the people into conflicting factions in order to create specialized target demographics for boosting the economy at the expense of most everything, including their core individuality. I don't think most people hopping on those trains realize not just how they're on one track only out of a possible many including their very own for the time being, but also who manufactured the trains and decided on the destination.

I'm trying but I'm not even sure why you are arguing this. Why bring Elon musk posts on offtopic then? What is the point of this rant if you are just throwing out examples out? Maybe if you had read my post you would have understood that I was replying specifically to you being annoyed about Elon Musk gossip on offtopic. And how:

1.- It's not pervasive on any gaming related thread on both this forum and on discord
2.- it's contained to a thread that is specifically themed to be about talking anything not gaming or build related

You can literally not interact with offtopic at all mate. In fact I barely read your posts on offtopic until a while ago. I still don't understand why that escalated on throwing shade at people for not being creative enough. It's again, a thread dedicated to talk stuff other than video games or Build. The onus of interacting with it is on you, why should other people change what they talk about because you feel it is a waste of time. By that note why are you wasting your time reading offtopic then if you find it unproductive to your creative endeavors?

Quote

So it's good because it drives progress, right? So that means you're aware this website/the Internet/the world deserves progress alright.

First off, not all progress is good. Case in point eugenics and lobotomy. Second of competition is the mother of progress yes. But competition doesn't only birth progress. It breeds creativity, it breeds zeal, it breeds 100 + things that have nothing to do with progress. Why is progressing such a damn important thing that everyone must do, and why must it be your idea of progress? As if progressing only in a certain direction culturally and morally was the only valid way to go. The Great Leap Forward was seeing as a great way to progress and it basically shot China in the foot culturally.

You know what is damn progress at the moment? Talking about how "Minor Attracted persons" are not a risk as long as they don't "act on their urges". Suggesting to patients in Canada that have have wasted too much money of the government so then they recommend patients that it is way cheaper to euthanize themselves. The whole trans movement being done so vicariously and by the seat of their pants ignoring the very real biology intrinsically linked to human sexuality and identity and how yes, Hormone therapy is irreversible and we are not really sure what the fuck is going on because we are treading new ground. The fact that human life having an intrinsic value because it is human life is being eroded in a bid to ignore personal responsibility and hedonism.

Progress for the sake of progress into a vague better world where we all are singing Kumbaya and living happy ever after is not progress at all. It's fucking retardation and dangerous to the nth degree.

Quote

I never ever encouraged limiting freedom of speech at all, I'm talking about maybe, just maybe getting better, you know, and refining behavior, a.k.a. think before you post and pick your own words if you're going to claim individuality. It is my freedom of speech to call it whenever I see someone whether being or acting like an imbecile (freedom of speech isn't a 'get out of jail' card and I dislike seeing it abused as such); and usually that's out of sheer frustration because I'm sick and tired of the people's intelligence and intrinsic potential constantly being insulted and manipulated so much in front of their very eyes.

Did you read this what you just typed? Are you being purposefully obtuse? Ck, look back at what started this whole discussion. Really look back at the context and tell me you are not encouraging limiting free speech at all as a way to control bad behavior. Free speech is not a jail out of free card yes but nobody here was acting like a fucking imbecile here until Reaper Man literally inserted himself into a ongoing convo between Radar and Danukem and started obviously baiting for a reaction. Everyone looked at the original post responding to mine and recognized it for the bait that it was. It wasn't until Reaper kept pushing that people started responding.

I'm sorry but who was the one doing the insulting and manipulation here?

Why are you acting as if everyone here is an abrasive jerk that is out to fight the world if they even glance at them? I think it is much more hurtful to the reputation of this forum that people continually insist on people in here being absolute pieces of shit when the reality much more nuanced.

I'm not saying everyone is an angel (I'm looking at you Aristotle Gumball) here but come on.

Quote

Last thing jkas, I appreciate you being on here and am actively looking forward to a Duke/Build contribution from you sometime.

Me too mate. Hopefully soon.

[MC84]

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 09:18 PM, said:

People like to pretend that duke4 is not popular because it is full of toxic right wing wankers, but the reality is that even without the right wing wankers duke4 would be same. Because the reality is that Build is not really newbie friendly and people gravitate to hobbies that have lower entry difficulties. Because Duke Nukem was never as popular as and controversial Doom and will never be. Duke Nukem also didn't have a sequel worth a shit that revitalized interest in the original games.

Using "toxicity" in the forums is jut an excuse.

For me this sums it up perfectly. As someone who has been working quietly on my own personal mod since 2016 I find it laughable that a newbie/potential build enthusiast will throw in the towel because of some fringe/offensive comments in the general discussion page... I mean c'mon! If that's all it takes to take the wind out of your sails, then you've got ZERO chance learning mapster, blender, GIMP, CON coding, and whatever other related programs to make your vision a reality.

[Jimmy]

You ever notice that all the regulars who post here either generally like each other or at the very least tolerate one another, and it is always outsiders who clearly do not like pretty much anyone who posts here that insist the forum is full of "toxic" behavior? The Outhouse has consistently maintained itself as the most civil part of the forum because it excludes outsiders by design. The Outhouse was supposed to be a way to contain "problematic" posts. All it really did was expose outsiders as the problem. And that does not mean "new people" as there are rather new posters right here in this thread defending this place that they like.

The reality is that these outsiders are infected with a social contagion that makes them hate hobby-cultures that gatekeep. Duke Nukem as a hobby-culture will always be the home to gatekeepers. Duke Nukem is a strong white straight Christian male Republican American patriot and there's nothing anyone can ever do about it.

Doom might have more mods. But how many of those mods are fucking trash made by mentally ill deranged genital mutilators? No I do not want to play your anime roguelike fps with randomly generated maps. Well over 50% of things developed for Doom are not worth a moment of your time. Doom never gatekeeped and now look at all the freaks who run everything over there.

And what's funny is that despite the "woke" takeover of the Doom community they can never change the fact that the most popular mod ever made continues to be an over the top male fantasy simulator with blood and guts and heavy metal music made by some weightlifting Nazi from Brazil.

[ReaperAA]

Phredreeke, on 13 November 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

The Doomworld hate came from one of the moderators on the site got butthurt over a WAD having a crucified Lara Croft as an Easter egg in it, they deemed it to be the last drop of misogyny coming from the mapper, banned him and demanded the author of the WAD strip out this Easter egg if he wanted his WAD to be allowed on the forum.

The second incident came from Impie making a cute TC for GZDoom that made fun of COVID restrictions which got him banned from the forum after moderators naturally raised a big stink over it. I ended up reaching out to him on YouTube inviting him to join this site.

The third incident was regarding the Blade of Agony WAD, where after the release of the third episode the moderators came up with a laundry list of changes to be made to it. There was ONE change I actually agreed with (removing the misgendering of ZDoom dev Randi Heit) but others were as ridiculous as one of the bosses having a nip slip in her death animation.

This is the same kind of deranged control freaks that attempted to cancel Ion Fury and everyone involved in it over a freaking soap bottle and TerminX saying something to the end that babies can’t be transgender.

To be fair, regarding the crucified Lara Croft in Ascension, it wasn't the easter egg itself that was too problematic but rather was another misogynistic conduct by one of the authors, Shadowman. Many of their previous works also had this type of stuff and arguably far more than the Lara easter egg. Likely that it was the last straw that broke the camel's back case I feel. Ultimately, Big Memka, the lead author of Ascension did end up releasing the wad on DW with the easter egg removed.

And regarding the BoA issue. I actually agree that DW mods might have gone too far with the change list, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was partially done to screw / get rid of Tormentor, who in recent years had become a nuisance due to stuff like plagiarizing maps or writing grand essays about quitting Doom and yet still coming back.

[Forge]

was anyone actually taking reaper_man serious?


they tried to gaslight about why eduke32 isn't popular
they tried to gaslight why the duke3d community has dwindled
they tried to gaslight about why the doom community isn't toxic
everyone on here is a right winger(this can't be serious) - somebody should inform balls of steel

then there's the gem that started it all:

Reaper_Man, on 10 November 2022 - 04:35 PM, said:

The fact that someone can post 1 meme counter to it (one that you have to admit is mild compared to plenty of other posts in this very thread) and people are so incensed that I'm immediately attacked and insulted. Now to be clear that didn't bother me, I say that because among the pages and pages and pages and pages - literal thousands of comments - of right-wing posts on this forum, 1 comment from 1 person challenges it, and everyone goes into a tailspin? Come on. That is so fragile it's hilarious.

the 'meme' post:

Reaper_Man, on 09 November 2022 - 02:39 PM, said:

Take a closer look. It's the same 5 or 6 weirdo, terminally online, Facebook uncle right-wing reactionaries, ceaselessly circle-jerking each other about their latest culture war battle front. Trans this, woke that, something something critical race theory. "The mean liberals on the bird app hurt my feelings!" Why they've chosen a web forum for a 30 year old video game to be their front line, I could only guess. How many people do you think are still active on this forum? A few dozen? A hundred? Normal, well adjusted people don't behave this way, much less want to interact with it.

the 'attack', 'insult', and 'tailspin':

Forge, on 09 November 2022 - 03:48 PM, said:

lol
*complains about people's behavior and political gibberish
*immediately behaves just like the people being complained about with a bit of cheap bait
nobody's making anyone read the off-topic/non-game threads

Radar, on 09 November 2022 - 05:26 PM, said:

What a childish tantrum.

so 'not bothered by it' that they went on and on and on for about 5 pages

I thought they were just trying to troll because they was bored. Nobody can be that delusional. That's like tv character levels of clueless.

[ck3D]

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 10:19 PM, said:

Maybe if you had read my post you would have understood that I was replying specifically to you being annoyed about Elon Musk gossip on offtopic.

See I never was annoyed by the Elon Musk gossip, I legitimately do not give a hoot about the guy since he has zero to do with my life and so I have zero interest in actually discussing anything since I don't even read those rants. I can't see what's so hard to get about how, again, that was just one example of ridiculous hot topics or terms people seemingly love to throw on the table and fantasize about for what I can imagine is feeling some sort of artificial feeling of relevance or importance, when maybe there are different things to worry about in daily life than abstractions if their feelings are as sincere as they claim for the causes and whichever ideals they vocally associate with. It's just fundamentally incoherent and so I'll call it, from that point on if anyone's delicate little feathers get ruffled then the problem is on them.

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 10:19 PM, said:

It's again, a thread dedicated to talk stuff other than video games or Build. The onus of interacting with it is on you, why should other people change what they talk about because you feel it is a waste of time. By that note why are you wasting your time reading offtopic then if you find it unproductive to your creative endeavors?

Yeah, it's still on a Build site and so frequented by Builders who are free to intervene whenever and wherever including in offtopic. You think this place is some kind of sacred sanctuary or a private little toy or something?

What I choose to do with my time isn't your concern but I will still address your question, I basically create full time and shoot the shit on here on my coffee breaks or days off. I mostly frequent the Build-related boards since that is my interest and one that is the common denominator between I'd imagine most people who come on here. Offtopic I find to be mostly uninteresting look at, with only sometimes the exceptional gem, and so I usually don't unless bored and also because I can and will chime in whenever I do feel like it. Is that some cute little passive aggressive attempt at bullying me out of part of the website I think I'm seeing from a so-called free speech advocate (I'll instantly forgive you)?

Re: progress, you're right, it's a complex subject and double-edged sword and throwing that particular glove I knew and maybe hoped someone would pick up on that. I really don't feel like getting into a rant about what I think about it on a Duke site out of all places and so I'll just say I agree with your general criticism of it. Your examples and correlations, though, I'll reserve the right to very generously disregard since how you think others should live is irrelevant in the real world. That's also valid for me but at least I don't see the wrong in wishing people were smarter.

jkas789, on 13 November 2022 - 10:19 PM, said:

nobody here was acting like a fucking imbecile here until Reaper Man literally inserted himself into a ongoing convo between Radar and Danukem and started obviously baiting for a reaction. Everyone looked at the original post responding to mine and recognized it for the bait that it was. It wasn't until Reaper kept pushing that people started responding.

I'm sorry but who was the one doing the insulting and manipulation here?

Why are you acting as if everyone here is an abrasive jerk that is out to fight the world if they even glance at them? I think it is much more hurtful to the reputation of this forum that people continually insist on people in here being absolute pieces of shit when the reality much more nuanced.

Whatever Reaper_Man chose to do only concerns them but I think they at least have the merit of being brave for posting against a grain I personally don't think should even exist. Now no one is perfect but really, I think you severely underestimate the number of sincere artists who can barely tolerate some of the vibes on here and just keep the attitude and comments to themselves because they know better than repeatedly butting their head against online stupidity (in general). That wall has been cracked now though. Why do you think all the best or current active mappers barely ever post but bare download links to their work? I don't think I ever even shared any of my political opinions on this website either and yet now apparently just for reporting the actuality of an issue (not even calling it major) I belong to this or that group. Are you sure there's no problem here? Starting to feel less and less like foreign perception to me and again, just saying.

Honestly done arguing though, I've said my share.

[Jimmy]

You're not very good at being disingenuous.