[Aristotle Gumball]

RIGHT WINGERS RULE, LEFT WINGERS DROOL. AM I RIGHT, FELLOW CONSERVATIVES???

[Phredreeke]

Forge, on 12 November 2022 - 01:09 PM, said:

we can keep comparing and contrasting speculations, but it's pretty much fact that Doom was one of the top 5 selling (pc) video games in the 90s, and duke3d was somewhere around 15th. The user base and audience is demonstrably larger. Always has been.

The Doom franchise also kept releasing successful and decent expansions for the game and continued an interest in the franchise (for the time period in question Doom 3). Duke was trapped in development hell and became a running joke. Eduke32 gave a burst of life to the community, but that started to taper off. After a couple of years & still no Duke Nukem Forever, people grew tired of hovering around waiting on something that seemed like it was never going to get released. They left. When the turd finally dropped, even more people left.

Yeah but I think he meant how did EDuke32 and (G)ZDoom compare on a technical level at a given time? I know at one point Randi planned to add the Polymost renderer to ZDoom.

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

I think a more likely answer is you're unaware of your own biases and how they affect your judgement. You essentially confirm this by later all but saying "moderation is censorship", itself the most ludicrous example of free speech absolutism.

I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm aware of all my biases and how they affect my judgement, since that would be foolish and arrogant. However, I will disagree with your particular example.

I didn't say that all moderation is censorship. I do think there is an overlap, though (i.e. some acts of moderation are also acts of censorship). And what I said was that I would be against significantly increasing censorship. Now, it may be that in your working definitions of those terms, they do not overlap at all. If so, then we have a semantic disagreement.

[Hank]

@ Phredreeke previous post
One reason perhaps was that the source code from Doom was officially released in 1997.
For Duke 3D, you had to have the Build source Code and the modified Duke 3D source code. Ken Silverman released the Build engine source code in 2000. Duke Nukem 3D code was released in stages as EDuke; sort of by requests from the modders for specific items, only. I did not have the patience to learn it. The entire code was then released than in 2003.

On the plus side, clever peeps like TerminX worked on Mapster. All my maps were done in version 0.4. A giant improvement compared to the Build editor.

[Reaper_Man]

You're missing the point of my comment regarding the two engines. The operative phrase was "from a development standpoint". Doom engine branches had things like Dehacked and Decorate which are radically limiting compared to CON, which Build has had since day 1. By the time ZScript came along, something like 10 years ago IIRC, EDuke's enhanced CON language was miles and miles ahead. Just compare what mods existed for both games - again, from a development or technical standpoint - from before ZScript existed. Build also had SOS and ROR long before the Doom map format could support full 3D environments like it can now.

My point is not "EDuke in 2022 is better than GZDoom in 2022", my point was "EDuke was a better development tool for years before the Doom family caught up".

[Forge]

Hank, on 12 November 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

@ Phredreeke previous post
One reason perhaps was that the source code from Doom was officially released in 1997.
For Duke 3D, you had to have the Build source Code and the modified Duke 3D source code. Ken Silverman released the Build engine source code in 2000. Duke Nukem 3D code was released in stages as EDuke; sort of by requests from the modders for specific items, only. I did not have the patience to learn it. The entire code was then released than in 2003.

On the plus side, clever peeps like TerminX worked on Mapster. All my maps were done in version 0.4. A giant improvement compared to the Build editor.

^this
I had already pointed out that zdoom had about a 6 year headstart on development.
But that was just the nazi in me talking

we're comparing making 1953 vw beetles to 2000 ford f150s. The build based games have a lot more flexibility and capabilities, but are a lot more difficult to figure out and work with.

[Phredreeke]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 01:23 PM, said:

You're missing the point of my comment regarding the two engines. The operative phrase was "from a development standpoint". Doom engine branches had things like Dehacked and Decorate which are radically limiting compared to CON, which Build has had since day 1. By the time ZScript came along, something like 10 years ago IIRC, EDuke's enhanced CON language was miles and miles ahead. Just compare what mods existed for both games - again, from a development or technical standpoint - from before ZScript existed. Build also had SOS and ROR long before the Doom map format could support full 3D environments like it can now.

My point is not "EDuke in 2022 is better than GZDoom in 2022", my point was "EDuke was a better development tool for years before the Doom family caught up".

Reaper_Man, on 10 November 2022 - 06:00 AM, said:

It actually and honestly really bums me out every time I see yet another indie game announced running on GZDoom, knowing full well that - at very least from a development standpoint - EDuke is technologically superior in almost every way. It has been around longer and feature rich for longer. It should have been the dominant "retro engine" people have been using for years.

[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 12 November 2022 - 01:23 PM, said:

You're missing the point of my comment regarding the two engines. The operative phrase was "from a development standpoint". Doom engine branches had things like Dehacked and Decorate which are radically limiting compared to CON, which Build has had since day 1. By the time ZScript came along, something like 10 years ago IIRC, EDuke's enhanced CON language was miles and miles ahead. Just compare what mods existed for both games - again, from a development or technical standpoint - from before ZScript existed. Build also had SOS and ROR long before the Doom map format could support full 3D environments like it can now.

My point is not "EDuke in 2022 is better than GZDoom in 2022", my point was "EDuke was a better development tool for years before the Doom family caught up".

Thanks for clearing that up. You did say something different initially, though.

I do remember enjoying a period when I started modding (I didn't start until 2006) for several years when we could do things they simply couldn't do in Doom ports. Yes, CON was indeed miles ahead of what they had back then.

[Forge]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 01:34 PM, said:

for several years when we could do things they simply couldn't do in Doom ports.

you mean like jumping, or slopes?

there are a lot of things that make the build engine and con system superior to the old doom engine


there are also good reasons one is more popular than the other, and always has been since the 90's

[Reaper_Man]

Okay, it should have been "was" not "is". I probably made a typo.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 12 November 2022 - 01:39 PM, said:

you mean like jumping, or slopes?

Haha very early on, yes. But even after they had slopes and jumping, something like DukePlus you simply couldn't do on a Doom port, likewise any other EDuke32 mod which made extensive use of the scripting system.

[Sangman]

Virgin Build game download count


Chad GZdoom game download count


Maybe the first number would be higher if it weren't for all these alt-righters, but I doubt it.

[Forge]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 01:42 PM, said:

Haha very early on, yes. But even after they had slopes and jumping, something like DukePlus you simply couldn't do on a Doom port, likewise any other EDuke32 mod which made extensive use of the scripting system.

yep.
and it boils back down to Doom is a continuous successful franchise that kept their community alive and active - where duke nukem eroded away over time (starting with the closing of dukeworld back in the early 2000's & later the 3dr forum) and having no releases until the 2011 turd that murdered what was already a corpse

[Phredreeke]

TBF you're comparing a game added a month ago to one that has been out a year and a half.

[Phredreeke]

So the jury finds Donald J. Trump not guilty in the murder of the Duke Nukem franchise?

[Sangman]

Phredreeke, on 12 November 2022 - 01:50 PM, said:

TBF you're comparing a game added a month ago to one that has been out a year and a half.

There are two kinds of people in the world:
1) those who can extrapolate from missing data

[Forge]

Phredreeke, on 12 November 2022 - 01:52 PM, said:

So the jury finds Donald J. Trump not guilty in the murder of the Duke Nukem franchise?

oh, the nazis did it for sure.
Just look at the Tiger II, the most advanced tank of the second world war.

It showed up late. It was incredibly complex and difficult to produce. When it worked it ruled the battlefield. when it broke it was almost impossible to easily repair and get back into action.

They had the best machine, but still ultimately lost the war because they got swamped by bad management and the opposition's overwhelming numbers

[Aristotle Gumball]

Sangman, on 12 November 2022 - 01:47 PM, said:

Virgin Build game download count


Chad GZdoom game download count


Maybe the first number would be higher if it weren't for all these alt-righters, but I doubt it.

lol 69

[Danukem]

I renamed the thread to start with "Spicy topicless" and now ppl are going to think it says "Spicy topless" and be very disappointed if they click.

[jkas789]

@Danukem:

Quote

I renamed the thread to start with "Spicy topicless" and now ppl are going to think it says "Spicy topless" and be very disappointed if they click.

I was hoping we where finally posting Tomb Raider cosplayer nudes but clearly I was yet again disappointing by how not right wing enough this garbage joint is. I guess if Reaper had their way we will not only be able to post that but we would also be able to post hardcore coprophilic gore furry porn and groom children like some people in the Doomworold community do but I guess we aren't there yet. Such a damn shame...

@ Phredreeke:

Quote

am a fucking left-winger. I’d side with Bernie Sanders on 90% of issues. But no one is getting banned anywhere for saying “healthcare is a human right”. What would have happened had I gone on Doomworld and said “hey, I think it was stupid of Kyle Rittenhouse to go out during the riots but those shootings were clearly in self-defense”. I’d be deleted quicker than Hillary deleted Seth Rich.

Fun fact, healthcare has its origin with fucking Bismarck of all people inventing it to counter the commies. read it up, it's true. Funny how that happens huh?

 Bismarck and the Long Road to Universal He - Theodore H. Tulchinsky.pdf (834.47K)
Number of downloads: 921

@Reaper-Man Jack ass:

Quote

At least once a week I hear about some gossip of what happened in the Duke4 Discord or get sent some screenshot of people just being genuine pieces of shit to each other. I get told how the off topic channel is the most active on the server, and it's filled with the same right-wing vitriol you find here. I don't even ask for this stuff, because none of it surprises me. I've made an active and intentional decision not to be part of the Duke4 Discord because of this, even though part of me feels like I probably should be (although I have no idea how much or how little dev/CON questions or discussion happens).

Oh you are actually serious? You actually claim that offtopic is full of right wing vitriol?

Let me laugh some more.

[Mark]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 02:49 PM, said:

I renamed the thread to start with "Spicy topicless" and now ppl are going to think it says "Spicy topless" and be very disappointed if they click.

It should have been renamed not too long ago as "Home of the long winded posters". My scroll wheel got a lot of use in the last 4-5 pages.

[Forge]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 02:49 PM, said:

I renamed the thread to start with "Spicy topicless" and now ppl are going to think it says "Spicy topless" and be very disappointed if they click.

for the cultured circlejerker

[Tea Monster]

Avenger, on 11 August 2022 - 01:31 AM, said:

Are you really this dense? I know nova scotia is among the armpit of canada (atlantic coast) but surely the education system can't be this terrible that simple arguments go entirely over your head...

You're new here, right?

Avenger, on 11 August 2022 - 01:31 AM, said:

As for your complaint regarding the rest of your previous shitty post, it simply wasn't worth replying to. Were you expecting I write an essay in return furry boy?

Ooop. Never mind me.

[Danukem]

You do know Avenger was banned, right?

[Tea Monster]

Dark Places and Quake would have been the natural go-to for old-style game dev. It had (at the time) a modern renderer and a good editor (Trenchbroom). It had 'real' 3D and was more modern than some other platforms for those who just didn't want to use Unreal or Unity. I'm kind of surprised that so many professional games have chosen GZDoom for their bid for indie glory. There are dozens of the things at the moment. Shame some of their programmers are so rude.

EDIT: No. I just tuned in on the off chance and saw a platform discussion. I don't remember Avenger.

[Danukem]

Tea Monster, on 12 November 2022 - 04:11 PM, said:

Dark Places and Quake would have been the natural go-to for old-style game dev. It had (at the time) a modern renderer and a good editor (Trenchbroom). It had 'real' 3D and was more modern than some other platforms for those who just didn't want to use Unreal or Unity. I'm kind of surprised that so many professional games have chosen GZDoom for their bid for indie glory. There are dozens of the things at the moment. Shame some of their programmers are so rude.

Yeah I probably should have gone with Quake. I'm too lazy to learn new things, but I'm willing to spend absurd amounts of time working around glitches and limitations in Build. It's irrational. EDITED after mental fart about dates

Tea Monster, on 12 November 2022 - 04:11 PM, said:

I don't remember Avenger.

That's for the best.

[Forge]

How old is trenchbroom? I didn't think it was that old, maybe 5 or 6 years, but admittedly I'm not knowledgeable about any of the quake engine map editors.

[Tea Monster]

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yeah I probably should have gone with Quake. I'm too lazy to learn new things, but I'm willing to spend absurd amounts of time working around glitches and limitations in Build. It's irrational. EDITED after mental fart about dates

Quake seems even more into "render purity" than Duke Nukem. There are rumours of a Quake port that carries the torch of Dark Places, but nobody mentions it directly. GZDoom has a pretty good renderer for more modern games, and just as importantly, modders who will use them to make cool titles that people talk about. There are at least half a dozen GZD titles on Steam at the moment. The only Quake one I remember offhand is HROT, which was quite cool, but looks like a lost Quake expansion from the 90's.

Danukem, on 12 November 2022 - 04:18 PM, said:

That's for the best.

They aren't a GZDoom programmer are they?

[Phredreeke]

HROT is not a Quake engine game, it runs on a custom engine written in Pascal. You’re probably thinking of Wrath

[Tea Monster]

Phredreeke, on 12 November 2022 - 04:39 PM, said:

HROT is not a Quake engine game, it runs on a custom engine written in Pascal. You’re probably thinking of Wrath

No, I was thinking of HROT, I just thought it was a Quake engine game. My mistake. But Wrath is one. Again, apart from the colours, it also keeps to the old-school feel.

@dannukem I'm sort of the same way. My Son keeps telling me to learn Unreal 5, but that's a LOT of work.

@Forge I don't know how old it is. It's not *that* old as I used to use something else back in the day. Trenchbroom is pretty easy to learn to use and there are a huge amount of straight-forward tutorials on YouTube. Even I learned to make something and I haven't mapped for decades.

I used to use WADED back in the day for Doom, but God only knows what is being used nowadays.