[Jimmy]

Yes.

[jkas789]

gemeaux333, on 10 October 2020 - 07:25 AM, said:

Sure it would be interesting to remaster Plug 'n Pray, the main problem this far is that everytimes some fans tried to recreate the Plug n' Pray levels (they had to recreate them from scratch each time) the right-owners where here to stop them... the only way to get them would be the legal path

Just from a quick search on my phone:

https://forums.duke4...__fromsearch__1

https://www.moddb.co...keplus-launcher

https://www.moddb.co...-remake-episode


And there is also the Total Meltdown TC which for the life of le I can’t find atm.

Dude are you confusing another project with Plug n Pray?

[Gantonio865]

Idk

[necroslut]

The Watchtower, on 10 October 2020 - 12:29 AM, said:

Yeah, it's baffling they always talk about 3 expansions when for real there are 4.

Yes, let's not forget Duke!ZONE II.

[jkas789]

You know the rules necroslut. We don't talk about Duke!ZONE II

[Gantonio865]

And we don't talk about the original Duke!ZONE neither

[Phredreeke]

jkas789, on 10 October 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

And there is also the Total Meltdown TC which for the life of le I can’t find atm.

https://www.moddb.com/mods/dntm

[NNC]

Jimmy, on 10 October 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

It didn't happen. Just another example of Gemeaux being absolutely full of shit.

Isn't this guy a Gearbox shill?

[NNC]

necroslut, on 10 October 2020 - 07:40 PM, said:

Yes, let's not forget Duke!ZONE II.

AFAIK Duke!Zone II was made by the authors of Nuclear Winter, while Duke Xtreme was made by the authors of Caribbean/DC, so technically they should be in. But the quality in these levels were too bad, even compared to Nuclear Winter.

[necroslut]

The Watchtower, on 11 October 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:

AFAIK Duke!Zone II was made by the authors of Nuclear Winter, while Duke Xtreme was made by the authors of Caribbean/DC, so technically they should be in. But the quality in these levels were too bad, even compared to Nuclear Winter.

IMO both Zone! II and Xtreme should be included in any attempt at a "definitive edition". Zone! II is definitely the bottom of the barrel as far as expansions go, but I found it worthwhile enough to play through once at least, once you're done with the other stuff, and IIRC (I haven't touched it in a while) there's some decent levels in there.
The Sunstorm made levels from Xtreme on the other hand were of a fairly high quality and I believe had they been user maps they would have been quite highly rated. Now they're dragged down by the mess that is the whole Xtreme package, and the lack of context, but they're really not bad levels.

Also, both were included in collections in the past (such as the Kill-A-Ton collection) so for the sake of completion if nothing less (though I think there are more valid reasons to include them) they should be there for people that want them.

[Phredreeke]

I would definitively include the Plug n Pray episode over DukeZone 2 or Xtreme. Though if it was up to me fix the Battlelord scaling bug and revert his sprites to the PC version. Also revert "mirrored" textures.

[gemeaux333]

jkas789, on 10 October 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Just from a quick search on my phone:

https://forums.duke4...__fromsearch__1

https://www.moddb.co...keplus-launcher

https://www.moddb.co...-remake-episode


And there is also the Total Meltdown TC which for the life of le I can’t find atm.

Dude are you confusing another project with Plug n Pray?

I don't know... I read on this forum ages ago that the right-owners were always stopping the recreation projects, but perhaps it have changed lately...

[Ninety-Six]

necroslut, on 11 October 2020 - 06:24 AM, said:

IMO both Zone! II and Xtreme should be included in any attempt at a "definitive edition". Zone! II is definitely the bottom of the barrel as far as expansions go, but I found it worthwhile enough to play through once at least, once you're done with the other stuff, and IIRC (I haven't touched it in a while) there's some decent levels in there.

The good levels were more or less in episode 1 (one of them being inaccessible normally), with one or two in episode 2 being alright. The rest of them, especially episode 3, were pretty trash-tier in my opinion. Not only did they fall apart thematically having nothing grounded about them, but on a gameplay and technical level too (not that the rest of the package was a technical marvel to begin with).

necroslut, on 11 October 2020 - 06:24 AM, said:

The Sunstorm made levels from Xtreme on the other hand were of a fairly high quality and I believe had they been user maps they would have been quite highly rated. Now they're dragged down by the mess that is the whole Xtreme package, and the lack of context, but they're really not bad levels.

I agree on this, though. X-Treme's levels were actually pretty alright for the most part, and better than DZ2 at DZ2's best. The only exception was HELICOP.map which was utter garbage and looked like someone's first Build mapping project and was filled with countless level-ending bugs and absolutely incomprehensible level design and poor enemy balancing.

[Phredreeke]

gemeaux333, on 11 October 2020 - 07:14 AM, said:

I don't know... I read on this forum ages ago that the right-owners were always stopping the recreation projects, but perhaps it have changed lately...

What they stopped was Duke Nukem Reloaded which was an entirely different thing

[gemeaux333]

Phredreeke, on 11 October 2020 - 07:18 AM, said:

What they stopped was Duke Nukem Reloaded which was an entirely different thing

I know about this one for sure, but I actually read that for Plug 'n Pray ages ago, but again it was a long time ago so it may be old facts, I even saw it in a mod list on a Eduke32 stream done by my friend geomancien yesterday (at my surprise) and then assumed it was finally possible...
...Or maybe it was only problematic when it came to include Plug 'n Pray in official releases of DN3D like Atomic and Megaton editions (maybe a detail that eluded me).

On a different topic, I would need your help : https://forums.duke4...ux/page__st__60

[NNC]

I think Xtreme is worse than Duke!Zone II in terms of level design. Most levels are just 2 minute romps in really simple areas. Just look at the very first level. How can you say it's alright? And the new enemies looked awful and didn't fit into the game in the slightest. Zone's episode 1 could have been fairly OK with a more ambitious texturing and some visual narratives that show what kind of place they actually represent. The shading, the layouts and the enemy placement was quite good.

I'm surprised Travis was involved in such a terrible project with Xtreme. Probably those were his earliest maps, but they are actually over before they start.

[necroslut]

Phredreeke, on 11 October 2020 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would definitively include the Plug n Pray episode over DukeZone 2 or Xtreme. Though if it was up to me fix the Battlelord scaling bug and revert his sprites to the PC version. Also revert "mirrored" textures.

So would I, quality-wise, but it would definitely be more work to include Plug 'n' Pray than Duke!Zone II or Xtreme (if you skip the launcher thing). Especially Zone II would pretty much just be drag'n'drop. Plug 'n' Pray includes a bunch of new code and stuff.

Ninety-Six, on 11 October 2020 - 07:15 AM, said:

I agree on this, though. X-Treme's levels were actually pretty alright for the most part, and better than DZ2 at DZ2's best. The only exception was HELICOP.map which was utter garbage and looked like someone's first Build mapping project and was filled with countless level-ending bugs and absolutely incomprehensible level design and poor enemy balancing.

The Watchtower, on 11 October 2020 - 08:04 AM, said:

I think Xtreme is worse than Duke!Zone II in terms of level design. Most levels are just 2 minute romps in really simple areas. Just look at the very first level. How can you say it's alright? And the new enemies looked awful and didn't fit into the game in the slightest. Zone's episode 1 could have been fairly OK with a more ambitious texturing and some visual narratives that show what kind of place they actually represent. The shading, the layouts and the enemy placement was quite good.

I'm surprised Travis was involved in such a terrible project with Xtreme. Probably those were his earliest maps, but they are actually over before they start.

Xtreme contained about 50% Sunstorm-made levels and 50% user made levels from the internet -- this goes for both the single- and multiplayer levels. It's the Sunstorm-made levels that are good, the user levels are really rough even if some of them have some good ideas. I'm pretty sure the first level was one of the usermaps -- the above-mentioned HELICOP too I think. Even with the Sunstorm levels it's clearly they were done pretty quickly, and many are on the short side (which would be more OK if it was an actual episode rather than loose maps, but it is what it is).

The new enemies have a really different art style, but I do think they're still well made and I like the designs. I also sure liked fighting them more than World Tour's Firefly.
I would have prefered if they had more of the same art style as the original enemies, but I don't think they clash as badly as they could have. Some of the stuff in Plutonium Pak clashes about as much, and I've rarely heard anyone (but me) complain about that.

Neither Zone 2 or Xtreme is great by any means, but I enjoyed tackling them after doing the better stuff, and I think they deserve to be included -- not that there really is anything to be included in at the moment.
Penthouse Paradise is better than both though! I wish they would have made an entire Penthouse Paradise expansion episode.

[NNC]

I'm just wondering what clashes did you notice in Plutonium Pak? I was talking about the art style with ck3d few months ago, we agreed most of them have a more colourful and "happier" tone and some of them are too specific for the level that used them, but I didn't notice actual game-breaker clashes. The newbeast was a very good addition, actually it filled an important gap in the midtier monster level, the tank was fine too, and the queen was infinitely better than both the overlord and the emperor. On the other hand that cobra thing and that gorilla thing had glitchy animation, they look totally alien in the game and even had a weird teleport-in when they see you. They weren't even using the sounds properly.

I'm not sure which levels were Sunstorm made, but stuff like Hoth were Travis-created, and for example that map looked really awful.

[Phredreeke]

necroslut, on 11 October 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

So would I, quality-wise, but it would definitely be more work to include Plug 'n' Pray than Duke!Zone II or Xtreme (if you skip the launcher thing). Especially Zone II would pretty much just be drag'n'drop. Plug 'n' Pray includes a bunch of new code and stuff.

Is there anything new to the code other than enemies (which I believe are copies of existing enemies using new tiles) and optimisations? (like fire animations going to sleep until you get up close, which we wouldn't want anyway)

There are different end of level animations but both Megaton and WT redid those anyway IIRC

[High Treason]

I could be wrong, but I'm sure that in my times pushing cameras and things outside of the level, I've seen fires stop animating in the original PC releases too, seemed like a hard-coded behavior but I never looked into it, because it wasn't what I was looking for. Think there are a few levels where you can even see fires, on slopes probably, drop into place when the player first sees them and wakes them up. The range may be smaller in the PS1 release though, making this optimization more obvious than it was.

[necroslut]

The Watchtower, on 11 October 2020 - 09:39 AM, said:

I'm just wondering what clashes did you notice in Plutonium Pak? I was talking about the art style with ck3d few months ago, we agreed most of them have a more colourful and "happier" tone and some of them are too specific for the level that used them, but I didn't notice actual game-breaker clashes. The newbeast was a very good addition, actually it filled an important gap in the midtier monster level, the tank was fine too, and the queen was infinitely better than both the overlord and the emperor. On the other hand that cobra thing and that gorilla thing had glitchy animation, they look totally alien in the game and even had a weird teleport-in when they see you. They weren't even using the sounds properly.

I'm not sure which levels were Sunstorm made, but stuff like Hoth were Travis-created, and for example that map looked really awful.

The Plutonium Pak enemies fit in fine -- I was talking about textures and props there.

IIRC there's a text file on the disc that lists who did what levels, but I don't have it accessible now. I remember feeling there was a very clear difference in quality between the Sunstorm and user made levels.

Phredreeke, on 11 October 2020 - 09:57 AM, said:

Is there anything new to the code other than enemies (which I believe are copies of existing enemies using new tiles) and optimisations? (like fire animations going to sleep until you get up close, which we wouldn't want anyway)

There are different end of level animations but both Megaton and WT redid those anyway IIRC

No, other than menus and such there's only the enemies that I can remember. I don't think they're straight "sprite swaps" -- don't they at least fire different weapons and such? I don't recall if any of the new props are breakable or otherwise interactive.
It wouldn't be a huge amount of work, probably, but including something like Duke!ZONE II would be even easier and require basically none.

[The Battlelord]

Bubble Gum Chewer, on 10 October 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

Was he always like this?

Maybe is the "free jhonny" virus that is taking over.

[Phredreeke]

necroslut, on 11 October 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

No, other than menus and such there's only the enemies that I can remember. I don't think they're straight "sprite swaps" -- don't they at least fire different weapons and such? I don't recall if any of the new props are breakable or otherwise interactive.
It wouldn't be a huge amount of work, probably, but including something like Duke!ZONE II would be even easier and require basically none.

Yeah but that's like saying I shouldn't bother doing neural network upscales because just running them through XBRZ is easier

[necroslut]

Phredreeke, on 11 October 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

Yeah but that's like saying I shouldn't bother doing neural network upscales because just running them through XBRZ is easier

I didn't say "don't include Plug 'n' Pray" -- just that including Plug 'n' Pray but NOT Duke!ZONE II or Duke Xtreme makes little sense to me (unless you want to "protect" people from them).

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 11 October 2020 - 08:04 AM, said:

I think Xtreme is worse than Duke!Zone II in terms of level design. Most levels are just 2 minute romps in really simple areas. Just look at the very first level. How can you say it's alright? And the new enemies looked awful and didn't fit into the game in the slightest. Zone's episode 1 could have been fairly OK with a more ambitious texturing and some visual narratives that show what kind of place they actually represent. The shading, the layouts and the enemy placement was quite good.

I'm not sure what you mean by first level, since as I recall the maps had to be loaded separately. There was Hendrick's attempt to place them into an episode, so do you mean Convention? I'm not sure what else you mean (I personally played with a custom level ordering myself; one that organizes the levels by theme and difficulty since doing it alphabetically leads to...well, starting with one of the most difficult maps in the set).

I'll grant that X-Treme's maps were pretty short, but I'll take short and competent over a long mess. Even at its best DZ2's levels could be rather confusing and cheap. E1L2 is probably one of the worst offenders, being a nonsensical slime level in what was supposed to be an arctic theme, with somewhat tedious platforming and the non-critical paths just being a criss-crossing confusion. This is to say nothing of the normal secret level, which is probably one of the worst maps of the package. It's kind of a shame since the inaccessible 4-Way Stop is probably one of DZ2's best offerings. But even that has problems in terms of where to go and what to do. X-Treme's maps were short but your objective was (usually) a bit clearer.

[Jimmy]

gemeaux333, on 11 October 2020 - 07:14 AM, said:

I don't know... I read on this forum ages ago that the right-owners were always stopping the recreation projects, but perhaps it have changed lately...

No, no, no. They never had a problem with the projects.

What they had a problem with was the Hail to the King Collection, a commercial release. Basically Voidpoint was going to arrange every version of the game + all expansions into a single experience for Android devices (and potentially PC.) When 3DR fucked up and had to forfeit the entire IP to Gearbox, Gearbox kiboshed the entire project for inexplicable reasons and then released a shitty inferior product known as World Tour. Because Voidpoint is cool, Duke64 and Total Meltdown just became free projects released to the community.

It's a real shame too. The Android port was pretty awesome. I am not a mobile gamer, and I've played some other mobile FPS ports of like Doom and shit and they just sucked ass. Maybe some of the newer ones are good, it's been a few years. I don't even own a phone anymore. I used to play the unfinished version of it all the time when I had nothing to do during my girlfriend's shows at clubs and shit.

[jkas789]

Real talk, now that we are talking about a theoretical ultimate collection of Duke Nukem 3D I wouldn't mind including both DukeZone II and Xtreme. Sure their quality is spotty at the best of times but if there was going to be a "ultimate collection" they would have to be included if only because of it's historical value IMO. Also Penthouse Paradise. Its only one level but damn it you better include it you mofos!

Also Zoom already kinda adds DukeZone II and Penhouse Paradise so... ┐(￣ヮ￣)┌

I really wish the Zoom version had more effort into it than just throwing at you the GRPs and calling it a day.

Quote

What they had a problem with was the Hail to the King Collection, a commercial release. Basically Voidpoint was going to arrange every version of the game + all expansions into a single experience for Android devices (and potentially PC.) When 3DR fucked up and had to forfeit the entire IP to Gearbox, Gearbox kiboshed the entire project for inexplicable reasons and then released a shitty inferior product known as World Tour. Because Voidpoint is cool, Duke64 and Total Meltdown just became free projects released to the community.

I fucking hate. HATE. ABSOLUTELY HATE! Randy and Gearbox. Are you telling me Jimmy we could have had the ultimate Duke Nukem 3D collection released by Voidpoint but they got cockblocked by a a discount back alley magician because he liked good jokes?

[Jimmy]

Pretty much. I blame 3DR. There's more to it than that but I am in no position to get into it. But what 3DR did to lose the IP is public knowledge and really fucked over the project. I had minimal involvement but really it was basically done which makes it even more sad that they screwed everything up. I guess Ion Fury working out kind of makes up for it for Voidpoint.

As for the Zoom release, I wouldn't count on it ever becoming anything more. We're lucky it's even available, fortunately whatever contract 3DR had with them Gearbox had to continue honoring, but I'm not sure for how long they will be able to do that.

[OpenMaw]

Phredreeke, on 11 October 2020 - 07:18 AM, said:

What they stopped was Duke Nukem Reloaded which was an entirely different thing

3D Realms stopped Duke Nukem Half-Life and Duke Nukem Source. Twice on the latter. There were two source mods recreating Duke 3D.

[Phredreeke]

OpenMaw, on 11 October 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

3D Realms stopped Duke Nukem Half-Life and Duke Nukem Source. Twice on the latter. There were two source mods recreating Duke 3D.

There's a pattern here, recreations of Duke Nukem 3D on a different engine. Not recreations of Duke Nukem Total Meltdown in Duke 3D itself.