[TerminX]

High Treason, on 20 March 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

priority is almost certainly dictated by what Ion Maiden needs at any given time

This is true, but it's also the way EDuke32 development started in the first place--priority was dictated by what I personally needed to do mod stuff I wanted to do. Now it's dictated by what Ion Maiden needs and by what annoys players enough to leave bad reviews.

These aren't bad things, however, and all of these changes are made in a way in which Duke3D is the "first-class citizen" and IM is the afterthought, despite the changes being made to improve IM in the first place. It makes a lot more sense for me to do things this way because the behavior of Duke3D is well defined whereas the behavior of IM is something I can change on a whim.

[Hendricks266]

HellFire, on 19 March 2019 - 03:26 PM, said:

The fuck you're talking about? Wanting to have faithful gameplay just like we have been playing it for 20+ years is "poluting the community"?

Thats a very stubborn way of seeing things hendricks, but OK, if thats how eduke team thinks, then so be it.

You're right, sorry. What I said doesn't read back with the tone I had in my head when writing it.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

I just think it's funny how we're saying: screw the warps, only people on Meltdown use them. But the decades old sprite ladder exploit, we'll take that on a case-by-case basis. The EDuke32 devs definitely know where their bread is buttered.

I realize I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I think the matter is about map intent. Vanilla maps never intended to have this warping effect. User maps with sprite ladders did. Sure the game code wasn't built for it, but from the user's perspective, the map itself is the part they'll be thinking around and actually playing. So that's what I think they mean when it's case by case, versus the warping which is very clearly not intended in either code or design.

[Radar]

I get it and that's a fair argument.

[Striker]

I'm perfectly fine without the warps for more reasons than one, and a big one is that I no longer have to fight with the map's layout when designing a map to prevent odd clipping from happening. The other is, I've never been much of a fan of those kinds of exploits in a competitive multiplayer scene. Advanced movement is one thing, but straight up glitching through things, teleporting, and/or disappearing inside of things is another.

As for sprite ladders, I hope something can be done to make sure they still work perfectly fine, or at least a means of flagging our sprites for specific collision behavior.

[MetHy]

High Treason, on 20 March 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

Damn, I dread to think how long you had to search for a user DM map that wasn't either just a selection of unshaded Tile #0 corridors and boxes with useless items scattered willy nilly all over the shop, or else some piece of crap designed (ha, right, usually modified someone else's work poorly) to let the host win (usually with said host getting mad if you figure out how to work the map yourself).

DmDucts (the very best)
Krachtest
Library (the one made by someone from Sunstorm, looks like it might be Travis), the original version, not the DX version Megaton comes with in which balanced is fucked

Courette
Daisy II
DK3
Entrepot (by the same author as these last 3 iirc)

Alcatraz (great if you have 4 players or more)
WGCityDM (same)

Night&Day
Chuckles and Cigam are also decent
There was also one called Hexy, Hexi or something (it was a map with 4 vats of water/acid; surrounded by glass windows and corridors with teleporters behind; all connected by an overwater area)

and of course yours truly Atomic Bunker and Canyon Bunker

There, that's 14 maps; and I know I'm forgetting some.

[Radar]

Yeah at first I didn't want to bother responding to that, but I can't help myself lol. I'm highly interested in what map pack he was looking at that had maps with only texture #0 pasted everywhere. I know there are packs with hundreds of maps where 95% of them suck, but it doesn't mean we play those maps. Some of the classics are maps like iod2, danzig66, and if you want to be "edgy" (literally, lol), there's ledgesb1. (And for those who complain about ledges, keep in mind it's a map with no warps or secrets.)

[TerminX]

Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

I realize I'm barking up the wrong tree

Yeah, the changes that fix the player clipping through walls and into other sectors are actually completely different from the changes that could potentially prevent a sprite ladder constructed in a certain way from working. The former was an engine bug and the latter was just poor design in Duke3D-specific code.

[brullov]

Guess the engine.

Spoiler

I tried to remaster this location.

[ck3D]

oasiz, on 20 March 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

Between this post and Slum Noir, I just can't seem to decide which output of yours I love the most.

[Jblade]

brullov, on 21 March 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

Guess the engine.
*snip*

[MetHy]

brullov, on 21 March 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

Guess the engine.

https://i.imgur.com/NrXbs5I.png


https://i.imgur.com/4xRaeOa.png

Spoiler

I tried to remaster this location.

https://i.imgur.com/ee4qMuA.png

Build?

This looks really cool, though if I had to nitpick, the difference in pixel density bothers me a little. Half of the textures look "low-res" while the other half doesn't, which could probably be easily fixed by using a bigger repeat on that first half.
Also, if it's supposed to be a remake of The Abyss, the cool thing about that room was the moving sectors, and I see no indication of that here.

Hope we get to play this at some point!

[oasiz]

Casual discussion about RR ROR with me and methy lead to Nuke.YKT to come in and drop the microphone by telling that SE40 actually existed already in 1.5 duke, meaning that DOS 1.5 Duke can actually do ROR.



I haven't seen anyone mention this before..

And no, it doesn't work in 1.3 at least.. maybe 1.4 ?

[NY00123]

oasiz, on 01 April 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

Casual discussion about RR ROR with me and methy lead to Nuke.YKT to come in and drop the microphone by telling that SE40 actually existed already in 1.5 duke, meaning that DOS 1.5 Duke can actually do ROR.

It is surely interesting to discover something which was actually around for all of these years.

Quote

And no, it doesn't work in 1.3 at least.. maybe 1.4 ?

I confirm that it doesn't work in 1.4, either.

On a relevant note, a few of you may recall that I took the public Enhanced Duke 2.0/2.1 sources, and modified them to cover sources which are 100% equivalent in behaviors to Duke Nukem 3D: Atomic Edition v1.5.

Not that long later, though, Nuke.YKT suggested me to check the "extras" dir from the GPLed Duke3D sources of 2003. These include that same se40.c file which I think that at least a few should remember.

As it turned out, "extras" contains *exactly* the code for v1.5! And, even GAME.C itself has a few SE40-related routines. So while se40.c itself might not be present in the 1.5 EXE at all, there's still some (partially) working code, which is surely something.

[Usurper]

This built-in room over room stuff was found pretty much immediately after the Duke3D source code came out. I recall it being slightly improved in the CDuke3D port by Colourless, which dates back to April of 2003.

[MetHy]

You're right, EDuke32's sample folder comes with an example of it; but I always assumed it was an EDuke32 addition, not something possible in 1.5.
There is no mention of it on the infosuite or any tutorial to my knowldge outside of that sample folder, or any map that I know of which used it; even those dating from after 2003.

It's still quite a shock to find out 1.5 was capable of the exact same kind of RoR that RR:RA does, the only difference being that hitscan doesn't go through the RoR surface. Common widespread knowledge has it that Duke doesn't have RoR, unlike Blood, Shadow Warrior, etc it's just as big to me as finding out about slopes in Powerslave.

[Radar]

Is this that effect where you can see into rooms that are completely disconnected in geometry?

[brullov]

Spent whole day on this, just having fun. Still WIP, but playable. I also want to rework the lightning of this scene.

Spoiler

[Kyanos]

Radar, on 03 April 2019 - 05:04 AM, said:

Is this that effect where you can see into rooms that are completely disconnected in geometry?

More of a hack than an effect XD

It's as you say, you can see/move through floors and ceilings that are not actually connected in the map. Much like the se7 teleporter the se40 sprite will teleport you to the other sector, but it does more too, se40s will cause the other sector to be duplicated and shifted at runtime to actually exist above/below it's connecting sector. When the renderer encounters a ROR tagged sector it first draws the adjoining sector then calls drawroom again and draws your normal scene with the tagged floor/ceiling removed so you can see the other sector in what would normally be void space and cause a hall of mirrors.... I dealt with these in that SW M32 project I had a while back.

[oasiz]

Blood / SW / Duke1.5 / RR etc.. are just projection hacks with different varieties.
Duke's version is indeed limited but like Methy said, it's crazy that nobody seems to document it despite allowing tons of new possibilities visually.

RR has one extra form of this as it can do multipass rendering and actually project off-map objects in to play field.

Generally it just boils to this:
> Render foreign sector
> Render main sector
Bits that connect to foreign sector are NULL in the main sector.
End result is the same as using two photoshop layers where you have a cut-out on the main area to where the secondary area is seen.
Exact same logic is used with mirrors, except that this is placed opposite to the player and doesn't take this concept vertical.

RR's 3D multipass does the opposite and renders the player view first and then appends these additional camera snaps in one by one with a specific rendering order, i.e. a floating cube could be 2-3 passes with few faces being rendered at a time and rest are textured "null".

All ROR methods still rely on some anchor point and a camera.
You still had the problem of actually moving objects between these areas since they were fundamentally still just rooms with a garbled floor/ceiling texture. Relocating sectors physically allows something similar such as powerslave where you just flip the "current sector" while keeping x/y/z coordinates and velocities intact.
Not relocating will require something similar to SE7 underwater transitions (teleportation) and in some cases no logic is really needed as the whole projection can just be visual only (like a skybox). Each game had their own share of additional hacks to make the game play as seamless as possible between these disconnected areas, i.e. do enemies see you throught them.


These are all still game side hacks and BUILD never supported any form of ROR until TROR.

[Zaxtor]

just a little spoiler for the Oblivion TC improvement

E2L1's beginning where were in warp inside the small ship
I used the AMC TC skybox trick, TROR and etc.
you know the SE lotag 80 skybox thingy

Makes the warp effect look damn cool (cooler than the old Oblivion TC warp sequence of E2L1)

and once the warp halts, I used the
setsector[THISACTOR].floorpicnum and ceilingpicnum to change the skybox sector into an ordinary space skybox

[Jblade]

TROR is still incredible and I hope now that it's working in polymost mode, more mappers will start to use it as it really is a big game changer.

[Zaxtor]

Replaced those "bar stool" in the ship by real ship chairs
Made a neat trick that you can climb in "Different" height when you go on different areas of the chair
And when you break the chair (blocking trick goes)

[Forge]

 oasiz, on 03 April 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

Blood / SW / Duke1.5 / RR etc.. are just projection hacks with different varieties.
Duke's version is indeed limited but like Methy said, it's crazy that nobody seems to document it despite allowing tons of new possibilities visually.

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

[oasiz]

Forge, on 07 April 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

Yeah, that's the crazy part. People treat like it's exclusive to select source ports, as non-vanilla stuff seems to be generally HARAM, things like this don't seem to get exposure if put under the "wrong light".
You'd think that guides made 10 years after source release would at least mention this feature, considering that a bunch of other unused stupid effects get mentioned and abused through various ways.

I know SE40 is limited in it's use but it can still enhance things a lot.

[ck3D]

Forge, on 07 April 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

Same. From a pure mapper of two decades' standpoint, that possibility is new to me. Only upon hearing about it recently have I gone back to mapping guides to look for SE references I might have omitted to consider myself, or did a few quick web searches and still couldn't find anything. I would experiment with the possibilities in test maps myself just to figure out how much is exploitable and how much is broken, but I just don't have the time right now, and it seems to be common knowledge already for some people. And SE80 now? Either way, more info about those 'undocumented' SE would make for a welcome update of the Infosuite. I feel like the community might actually benefit a lot from that. Learning about such features after such a long time thinking I was familiar with the engine feels like I was lied to about my parents my whole life (or close enough).

[brullov]

A bit more satisfied with the result now. It's completely different though.

[Radar]

Brullov, do you have any playable released material? The stuff you are making is absolutely stunning.

[brullov]

Radar, on 12 April 2019 - 06:40 AM, said:

Brullov, do you have any playable released material? The stuff you are making is absolutely stunning.

Thanks. I think there are some playable parts in IM.

I've got some maps I made for Duke few years ago, but they are not good. I talk about oldschool maps I made, but they are more like copy/paste from original levels, so I don't recommend playing them. I also made Xmas mod, but it's also outdated, I mean I can make it way better now. I just spend free hours to rest in the editor, creating different scenes. Maybe one day I will release something, just need to stop creating different parts and focus on one map.

[ck3D]

You know, maybe at some point you could figure out a way to link certain of those sceneries together into one, or several playable Frankenstein maps. How critical to be about matching themes would be entirely up to you (you could aim for coherence, or find a plot that would excuse crazy combinations), and your work would get its due appreciation. This community needs more releases and you have a great eye for design. Building different parts, or starts of maps that end up not really going anywhere is a feasible way to approach making levels - my own level Anorak City was the result of a merger of two completely unrelated levels at first and it still kind of worked out. And just the other day I was thinking about the idea of a Frankenstein type of boss map to end an episode that would combine bits of all the previous levels in the episode, with extra eye candy and weird effects to make it look like the in-game universe just got hacked. Granted, not the most recommended way but the point I'm trying to make is, it's possible to make everything flow by just putting some thought into how to combine everything in smart ways, including layouts.

Perfectionism is one thing, I know I always can only be satisfied with my last two maps no matter what I keep putting out (which isn't much). I can't believe people played some of my older levels so much, but the fact is they have - meaning that they saw something in those levels that contented them. The intent of the artist just keeps evolving over time, whereas solid manifestations of their expression don't. Their lack of personal contentment with older material is natural, but shouldn't make them blind to the inherent positives of said older material.

EDIT - oh yeah since this is the thread, I guess I just kind of gave away that I was 'working on an episode' (hold your horses). It's completely unreasonable for me to do exactly that right now and might never amount to anything, but I'm 800 sectors into a potential first map and having some fun.