[Jblade]

TROR is still incredible and I hope now that it's working in polymost mode, more mappers will start to use it as it really is a big game changer.

[Zaxtor]

Replaced those "bar stool" in the ship by real ship chairs
Made a neat trick that you can climb in "Different" height when you go on different areas of the chair
And when you break the chair (blocking trick goes)

[Forge]

oasiz, on 03 April 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

Blood / SW / Duke1.5 / RR etc.. are just projection hacks with different varieties.
Duke's version is indeed limited but like Methy said, it's crazy that nobody seems to document it despite allowing tons of new possibilities visually.

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

[oasiz]

Forge, on 07 April 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

Yeah, that's the crazy part. People treat like it's exclusive to select source ports, as non-vanilla stuff seems to be generally HARAM, things like this don't seem to get exposure if put under the "wrong light".
You'd think that guides made 10 years after source release would at least mention this feature, considering that a bunch of other unused stupid effects get mentioned and abused through various ways.

I know SE40 is limited in it's use but it can still enhance things a lot.

[ck3D]

Forge, on 07 April 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

stumbled across numerous conversations about se40 ever since cDuke was released - and aside from cDuke, I don't recall ever seeing a proper tutorial or example map.

Same. From a pure mapper of two decades' standpoint, that possibility is new to me. Only upon hearing about it recently have I gone back to mapping guides to look for SE references I might have omitted to consider myself, or did a few quick web searches and still couldn't find anything. I would experiment with the possibilities in test maps myself just to figure out how much is exploitable and how much is broken, but I just don't have the time right now, and it seems to be common knowledge already for some people. And SE80 now? Either way, more info about those 'undocumented' SE would make for a welcome update of the Infosuite. I feel like the community might actually benefit a lot from that. Learning about such features after such a long time thinking I was familiar with the engine feels like I was lied to about my parents my whole life (or close enough).

[brullov]

A bit more satisfied with the result now. It's completely different though.

[Radar]

Brullov, do you have any playable released material? The stuff you are making is absolutely stunning.

[brullov]

Radar, on 12 April 2019 - 06:40 AM, said:

Brullov, do you have any playable released material? The stuff you are making is absolutely stunning.

Thanks. I think there are some playable parts in IM.

I've got some maps I made for Duke few years ago, but they are not good. I talk about oldschool maps I made, but they are more like copy/paste from original levels, so I don't recommend playing them. I also made Xmas mod, but it's also outdated, I mean I can make it way better now. I just spend free hours to rest in the editor, creating different scenes. Maybe one day I will release something, just need to stop creating different parts and focus on one map.

[ck3D]

You know, maybe at some point you could figure out a way to link certain of those sceneries together into one, or several playable Frankenstein maps. How critical to be about matching themes would be entirely up to you (you could aim for coherence, or find a plot that would excuse crazy combinations), and your work would get its due appreciation. This community needs more releases and you have a great eye for design. Building different parts, or starts of maps that end up not really going anywhere is a feasible way to approach making levels - my own level Anorak City was the result of a merger of two completely unrelated levels at first and it still kind of worked out. And just the other day I was thinking about the idea of a Frankenstein type of boss map to end an episode that would combine bits of all the previous levels in the episode, with extra eye candy and weird effects to make it look like the in-game universe just got hacked. Granted, not the most recommended way but the point I'm trying to make is, it's possible to make everything flow by just putting some thought into how to combine everything in smart ways, including layouts.

Perfectionism is one thing, I know I always can only be satisfied with my last two maps no matter what I keep putting out (which isn't much). I can't believe people played some of my older levels so much, but the fact is they have - meaning that they saw something in those levels that contented them. The intent of the artist just keeps evolving over time, whereas solid manifestations of their expression don't. Their lack of personal contentment with older material is natural, but shouldn't make them blind to the inherent positives of said older material.

EDIT - oh yeah since this is the thread, I guess I just kind of gave away that I was 'working on an episode' (hold your horses). It's completely unreasonable for me to do exactly that right now and might never amount to anything, but I'm 800 sectors into a potential first map and having some fun.

[oasiz]

Problem usually is that you have a cool idea or a scenery in mind that you want to do and anything beyond that would require a second jolt of inspiration.
You either get it or you don't. After you're done with the initial bit, it gets a lot harder to make something out of it.

Kind of like getting a nice catchy melody down but now you have to make a whole song around it.

[Danukem]

oasiz, on 15 April 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

Problem usually is that you have a cool idea or a scenery in mind that you want to do and anything beyond that would require a second jolt of inspiration.
You either get it or you don't. After you're done with the initial bit, it gets a lot harder to make something out of it.

Kind of like getting a nice catchy melody down but now you have to make a whole song around it.

Apparently that's a very common issue with creative projects. It's the same with fiction writing -- if you start with only an exciting scene that you want to happen, you will pretty quickly realize it's not enough to make a novel around. I humbly submit that what most creators should do is not try to be brilliant and original all the time, but be satisfied with competently and diligently executing their craft. Players/listeners/readers are happy enough with an occasional flourish of originality or exceptional quality, and a steady stream of well executed normality. In fact, trying to make everything original can result in an overwhelming and disjointed experience.

[Mark]

In my case, I'll start mapping for fun and relaxation and if it starts to look like it might be really cool looking I stop and think " I'm not going to just throw in the same old 20 year old DN3D enemies. I want something different". Sometimes I'll feel ambitious enough to create new enemies and other times I don't. When I don't, those are the maps that sit on my hard drive and gather dust. They become simply eye candy. Sometimes I would post a pic and say if anyone wants to finish this, go ahead. But over the years I seldom see somebody do that.

[Phredreeke]

brullov, on 12 April 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

A bit more satisfied with the result now. It's completely different though.

Wow. I'm really getting a Redneck Rampage Rides Again vibe here.

[brullov]

ck3D, cool idea about connecting all of those parts, but seems like I've lost some of them.

Anyway, today I am focused on a single map which uses some user art. I've taken some art done by Gambini for DNF'13, some Quake and Doom wads and personal artwork done by Cage. Hope owners don't mind, I will credit everybody. So for now I have a theme for the level which is going to be a desert map with open areas, catacombs, old buildings, mines, canyons and secret government objects. Pretty familiar to Duke's universe. I don't know how far I can go with all of that, but I definitely don't want to go for a mod size. Just drag'n'drop and play the map.

Yeah, there are not a lot of releases these days for Duke. I work every day now, but it's just a hobby stuff, so the release can hit next year or so. And I have got a lot of ideas for this level. Thanks for kind words and inspiration, let me open the editor now...

[Sanek]

Back in the saddle.

[MusicallyInspired]

^Nice!

[ck3D]

Nice shots, Sanek - very cool to see you work on a new map.

Trooper Dan, on 15 April 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Apparently that's a very common issue with creative projects. It's the same with fiction writing -- if you start with only an exciting scene that you want to happen, you will pretty quickly realize it's not enough to make a novel around. I humbly submit that what most creators should do is not try to be brilliant and original all the time, but be satisfied with competently and diligently executing their craft. Players/listeners/readers are happy enough with an occasional flourish of originality or exceptional quality, and a steady stream of well executed normality. In fact, trying to make everything original can result in an overwhelming and disjointed experience.

I'd agree that it's the same with all art. Restraint is key, as the well of inspiration is finite. One should just create naturally; whenever people try and force something is always when they fuck up. Taking breaks and maybe juggling with different outlets (that might even end up nurturing on another) is super important, because then new ideas have more time to come to you and in the end you achieve greater work flow on everything, because then you're never stuck. Starting a level with one impressive scenery that's not going anywhere is like starting a conversation with nothing to say - you never have to do it. Originality can be spontaneous though, and should be respected as such when it is because then in theory, if it's genuinely inspired then it should be functional. Forced originality is very common but probably shouldn't even qualify as originality as it's got to be one of the most unoriginal behaviors.

[Gambini]

Jblade, on 06 April 2019 - 02:23 AM, said:

TROR is still incredible and I hope now that it's working in polymost mode, more mappers will start to use it as it really is a big game changer.

So what that means? it works the same way it works on software?? That´s great to know!

[Micky C]

Yes

[High Treason]

It'll be a cold day in hell when I have anything to do with that ridiculous 'feature' in any capacity. I made up my mind when it first appeared, I'm not changing it.

[Forge]

ck3D, on 19 April 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

Forced originality is very common but probably shouldn't even qualify as originality as it's got to be one of the most unoriginal behaviors.

an accurate description of everything i've ever made

[ck3D]

Forge, on 20 April 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

an accurate description of everything i've ever made

I disagree, your maps had a specific style to them that never ceased to develop release upon release. I can be bad with names, but I strongly remember that even your first map had a distinctive flair and reflected your understanding and vision of the game (to the point where upon first playing it, I could instantly draw parallels with some points you'd regularly mention in your reviews, and recognize your taste). User maps are pretty much fan takes on the original Duke 3D corpus, and everybody's differences in style are interesting because they are a subconscious, but direct manifestation of their interpretation of one universal reference. The game has been around for so long now that we've gotten to see plenty of quality maps with distinctive aesthetics, events or layouts that had so little to do with the original game yet stood on their own feet, because they were credible representations of possible angles to decipher Duke 3D from. User maps that just rip off other popular levels are promptly forgotten, since they offer nothing new. That really wasn't the case with your releases at all, and I actually remember that era of the community where you and a handful of others were coming out with fresh takes on the regular quite fondly.

[Forge]

ck3D, on 20 April 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

I disagree,

some people liked them, some people hated them. That would be the nature of things.

But I can tell you that a lot of sections in all my maps (& even the cbp's) were forced, or simply neglected, because I lack sustained creative vision and motivation. The more I mapped, the worse it got. It's why I quit mapping; it became too frustrating, tedious, and unsatisfying.

[ck3D]

That's actually kind of what I meant about restraint, earlier; I was thinking quality but also quantity of mapping. The mapper's block aka. blank page syndrome. If you overdo it or end up just firing up Mapster32 out of boredom, habit, or some self-imposed duty then nothing is going to come out or if anything does, then it'll be as painful and uninspired as finally hitting the bathroom after three days spent living off rice as main plates and chocolate for dessert. I know exactly what you mean because I've been there countless times myself (not the diet thing), maybe for the majority of my mapping 'career' actually which can easily be sensed in most of my older maps; or maybe it's really just the recollection of the frustration felt whilst designing them that makes certain sections of our own levels leave a bad taste in our respective mouths, but sometimes given the context (i.e.. a two-minute bland section in an otherwise impressive level) for some reason it doesn't seem to always translate over to the player's experience. We are aware of our own weaknesses, but players will just take the map for what it is and maybe even find enjoyment in things we might hate ourselves. Art has most everything to do with the author's torment; mapping is no exception, but once the piece is out there then its interpretation belongs to the crowd. Those flashbacks of sitting in front of Mapster for hours not knowing what to do and sketching out bits that look hopelessly doomed from the start are painful, but we all have those I think.

Your reason to quit mapping has to be the most popular one, I'd venture guessing. Mapping does use you up when you overdo it - like I was saying once the well of inspiration is empty, there's no point in trying to dig further down. Just wait for the next rain, aka. inspiration spree. Unless on a paid program, one just needs to recognize those instances where they have to tell themselves to take breaks. I tend to be particularly stressed out by all things time in general and remember how when I was younger, somehow I'd feel like it was some kind of duty of mine to pump out frequent releases, even if that meant rushing large or crucial sections of a level because hey, mapping is fun and I guess I wanted to see how far I could push productivity, just for myself. In hindsight that was very immature, and resulted in releases I still kind of kick myself in the ass for, to this day (but then I've seen playthrough videos of those same maps on YouTube, which means people have enjoyed them and still do - makes you think).

I've resolved that by just jettisoning such concerns and just mapping whenever I feel like it. The time you spend away from Mapster and actually doing or thinking something completely different is where you'll get fuel for your inspiration for the time you spend in front of Mapster. Actually, recently after getting back into mapping with a completely carefree approach, I've been thinking about how long breaks might actually be super healthy for everyone involved - the mapper's sanity, and the player's eventual experience. Sometimes it takes weeks, months or years to feel inspired again; or if you've been running especially dry for a while, then it kind of takes forgetting about Mapster / Duke / mapping altogether till it spontaneously starts itching again, and that's when an author will have something to express. In a way it's all about listening to what your own mind is telling you, and acting accordingly. I try to be in tune with myself so I have no problem with the inconsistency of not even touching a PC for three weeks, then suddenly pulling a Mapster all-nighter or two; alternatively, I'll feel it when said spree is ending, and know when to stop before I start fucking up my map with pointless or uninspired locations.

[Forge]

Even my reason for quitting is unoriginal.


I can relate a lot to feeling pressured to produce, whether it was self-imposed, or I promised somebody I'd make something for them. That's part of the motivation killer. Even if the deadline is four years from now and all I have to do is make a hub with half a dozen rooms in it - I feel the need to push myself and pump it out as soon as possible. After a week or two, I can barely bring myself to open mapster because I get to the point where I detest working on it.
I also have this nasty habit of deviating from the requirements and adding a bunch of extra unnecessary shit that bloats the level, but draw a blank on the actual sections I was supposed to make in the first place.
I don't know what casual mapping is. There is no such animal in this house, and I'd probably shoot it dead if it came onto my property.

[High Treason]

I have the same rule for mapping as I do most anything else, if it's not fun, there's no point in doing it - hence never using TROR, because I don't find it fun to work with versus finding ways of not using it.

[Jblade]

For what it's worth I had a similar problem until I found my groove and what I was good at, which was less about heavy detailing and more about big spacious rooms that all connect together with high contrast lighting and stuff.

[oasiz]

While I do agree with TROR to some degree, it's still not a silver bullet solution and has many limitations on what you can do with it.
It still won't replace good design or SOS as it doesn't "just work".

It is extremely useful for stuff like having a better player experience for things like manholes where you don't have to rely on teleportation quirks and visual masking.
People still do a lot of stuff in game play that assumes ROR-like features but works around those, giving an inferior result than what you'd get with just using ROR methods or TROR.

This is coming from someone who has extensively messed around with SOS tricks, that skillset is still very useful with TROR

I absolutely adore proper SOS when done right but ROR also has the benefit of reducing bugs and oddities, not to mention that even 1.5 duke has a ROR effector.
ROR itself is no more stranger projection trick than what mirrors are, TROR just makes it more engine side and hacks it in to the map format.

[High Treason]

The original ROR implementation is far better to work with, but is far too limited to be of much use due to no slopes. Meanwhile TROR is implemented horribly, one mistake and the whole map is basically done for as it's almost impossible to go back and make changes, the performance sucks and again, there are far too many limitations in what it can realistically do. If it worked more akin to something between Blood and SW's implementation I may be more inclined to use it, but as it stands the current system is simply horrible. This may well stem from the fact that the interface simply wasn't designed to do things like this. Overall I doubt any of the areas in my maps beyond Riverside would even work with either implementation and, again, most importantly it's just not fun to work with.

[MusicallyInspired]

I know it's not a top priority and I'm off topic, but I'm still hoping for some dynamic lighting (particularly spotlights) support for shining down/through TROR layers eventually.