[Mark]

I would think the patch could be made to check that Polymer has been selected before activating? Or add it as a new menu choice when pressing ' and F

[High Treason]

This bug, that exploit, some cheat. This change makes EDuke32 different in ways that are better. Wait, why does nobody use EDuke32 and instead they use crappy Megaton or something? So and so said this, did that, whatever.

Regardless, there are still some actual game breaking things that have never been fixed as far as I know. This is certainly still possible;


In fact I have a whole video coming up on how/why it happens, just for fun.

[Radar]

Warps are not cheats.

Exploits, sure. But not cheats.

Cheats require external modification of the game to give the cheater an advantage over the opponent.

But all players have equal ability to execute warps.

I just think it's funny how we're saying: screw the warps, only people on Meltdown use them. But the decades old sprite ladder exploit, we'll take that on a case-by-case basis. The EDuke32 devs definitely know where their bread is buttered.

TerminX, on 19 March 2019 - 10:42 PM, said:

Played on HEAT and was in the top 10 on Case's Ladder, but nice try.

Case's Ladder is still online, so I wonder what your handle was?

[oasiz]

Mark: This is all doable with m32 scripting.
I already have stuff like hotkeys bound to copy slope/shade/picnum/pal/Z, stuff to move selections as a whole, stuff to run "integrations" on props you want to place on maps, stuff like pressing ALT C will autosize a button and place it at correct Z offset from floor for it to be pushable by keyboard players, etc..
I even have same prompts Xvel Yvel Zvel Owner Blend as regular lotag, etc... a lot can be done with just scripts.

Not sure what is the best way but I could probably take a look in to this when I am less busy, hopefully soon.
I'll likely need a 1px nudge hotkey soon for IM so I will craft a duke version of it if I end up doing it.

Scripts are an invaluable tool when mapping, I regret not learning it earlier.
I'll probably at some point "port" my suite of hotkeys to duke as well, currently when mapping without them is like going back to 1.5 build vs. mapster.

[oasiz]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

I just think it's funny how we're saying: screw the warps, only people on Meltdown use them. But the decades old sprite ladder exploit, we'll take that on a case-by-case basis. The EDuke32 devs definitely know where their bread is buttered.

In this case I would say that it's intended behavior by design, the game simply didn't have ladders and abusing an existing quirk was the closes thing you could get.. very different than having them as glitches that the designers weren't even aware about when making the maps, potentially resulting in game breaking teleportation that can harm SP experience. Had the QA caught these bugs, they would have been mitigated or patched out.
I don't understand why you are saying "bread is buttered" as if this was some selfish betrayal when it is something that many designers wished would have been fixed ages ago, me included.
Things might have worked back in KB only days but straferunning, juming and crouching results in very easy teleportation when you least want it.

[HellFire]

oasiz, on 19 March 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

IMO Cheats or not, it was still a thing that harms content creation and especially sprite decoration and platform creation.
Anyone who has done at least some level of advanced mapping with sprites and SOS surely has ran in to these problems.

It sure does a big change on the original stuff and IM might have been one motivator behind it but it was honestly functioning really badly before and the effects are very undesirable outside of MP. Speedrunners today use megaton, and megaton has it even worse than 1.5.

A lot of idiotic things with sprite clipping limit the potential you can do with build, clipshapes were one way to work around this issue already.
Believe me, I really appreciate SOS teleporting, DM and speedrunning when it comes to duke but once you do more detailed geometry, some times the teleportation can get ridiculous and it can really hold you back, requiring various workarounds such as re-creating sectors to shuffle around the sector numbers and prevent teleportation at certain spots. Not to mention having sprite fences or platforms at all, not helped by the fact that Duke jumps as high as Mario.

I have a feeling that ports like Rednukem will be the better option for those who want pure Duke3D MP but with the benefits of EDuke32.
However by default everything will ultimately work better with correct collision in place without random teleportations or sprite clips.
Right now I would say that absence of teleportation is not really an issue since there is no MP in place for EDuke32.
Intention with any of these fixes is to just make Duke a better game to play.

However I've got little doubts that any issues or corner cases that come up will be checked and possibly worked around and for those that can't get a "fix" and require one.
Probably part of the point with this release is to see what can and what can't be fixed, otherwise all guides online will default to the compatibility flag and nobody will bother reporting or analyzing the bugs, leaving the new code way worse off and not a safe default that would have the best of both worlds in the long run.
Bottom line: Things will be broken for a while as they get fixed.

I understand it all perfectly, i'm a mapper too. I understand the existence of the bug interferes in map making (i dont know if you remember, but i actualyl reported a lot of warping bugs for the IM team on the im testing channel), and i do think its very reasonable to not want to have these bugs around once IM is released, thats only fair. But then what all that have to do with duke, that was already released 20 years ago? Duke should stay as it was on gameplay related matters, which is why i said from the beggining that this should be made as an option, the new behaviour could also be the newdefault in duke, thatwould beok. That option could even be hidden on IM, that would not be a problem too. But just make the changes inside an if/else so we still have the old clipping behaviour, thats all i'm talking about, this should be pretty easy to do, jsut leavbe the old code there and then do the maintainances you have to do on the new code.

TerminX, on 20 March 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:

You know it's bad when the exploiters are already whining about the glitches being fixed when we don't even have working multiplayer yet. Recently a multiplayer game I play got a patch that fixed a big problem where people were spamming the lean and crouch keys in a certain way in order to glitch their animations and cause a lot of shots fired at them to miss. The salt from shitty players who relied on such tactics was immense.

If i played that game you described, i would agree with that fix in fact. That bug apparently breaks the gameplay, and i guess most players would not enjoy it - warps are a different case and i think i already proved my point on that. I understand that for someone that dont enjoy how dukematch is player currently it can be comparable, and i really understand that, but even then, there's still something that separates the example you made from duke's warps: there wasnt a delay of 20+ years for a patch to come. Now after all this time, be it good or bad, these warps are part of duke.

TerminX, on 20 March 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:

Exploiting glitches to gain an advantage in multiplayer is cheating, period. Ironically enough I was actually considering adding a compatibility option before these changes were committed, but I wanted to see what people would say first. Now that I know the biggest complaint is probably going to be that people won't be able to cheat in multiplayer anymore when the client/server implementation is working better, I don't see myself adding such an option.

That's how I feel as well.

Nah it's not cheating, you can repeat that as much as you want, but you know that we're not altering the game files in any way so it doesnt make sense to qualify it as cheating. I really think you're not being reasonable with this.
As for we "whinning" even though eduke has no mp, that is to show you that we still care about eduke32, if i personally didnt gave a fuck for eduke32 do you think i would be wasting my time here posting? Why am i posting all this shit here? It's simple, i care about eduke32 and i see this as a big mistake, and this is a valuable opnion in this place to be honest, since most users on this forums dont have roots on dukematches and simply never new about this different perspective.

[Forge]

TerminX, on 20 March 2019 - 02:00 AM, said:

Sure, but it makes Duke mapping more flexible and will eventually make the game less glitchy overall.

I'm not complaining.

I dislike the sos/ror clipping issues in Caribbean.

[MusicallyInspired]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

Warps are not cheats.

Exploits, sure. But not cheats.

Cheats require external modification of the game to give the cheater an advantage over the opponent.

Ah you're right. I forgot about those external modifications of the game like "cheat codes" and "console commands."

[Radar]

oasiz, on 20 March 2019 - 05:10 AM, said:

In this case I would say that it's intended behavior by design, the game simply didn't have ladders and abusing an existing quirk was the closes thing you could get.. very different than having them as glitches that the designers weren't even aware about when making the maps, potentially resulting in game breaking teleportation that can harm SP experience. Had the QA caught these bugs, they would have been mitigated or patched out.
I don't understand why you are saying "bread is buttered" as if this was some selfish betrayal when it is something that many designers wished would have been fixed ages ago, me included.
Things might have worked back in KB only days but straferunning, juming and crouching results in very easy teleportation when you least want it.

By "bread is buttered", I mean that duke4.net has the tendency to see mod exploits as "intended behavior by design", while dukematch exploits are seen as cheating. No, the sprite ladder exploit is just as much a bug as warps are. In a "proper" Build engine, you'd just get sandwiched between the sprites. And if the sprites are clustered very closely on the ladder, you shouldn't even be able to walk through them if their blocking bit is on.

[Radar]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:

Ah you're right. I forgot about those external modifications of the game like "cheat codes" and "console commands."

What does that have to do with anything? They are blocked in online games.

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

By "bread is buttered", I mean that duke4.net has the tendency to see mod exploits as "intended behavior by design", while dukematch exploits are seen as cheating. No, the sprite ladder exploit is just as much a bug as warps are. In a "proper" Build engine, you'd just get sandwiched between the sprites. And if the sprites are clustered very closely on the ladder, you shouldn't even be able to walk through them if their blocking bit is on.

so there are no sprite ladders in dukematch?

i can make some and donate them if you think it'll help

[Forge]

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

[HellFire]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

I dont think thats true. A C/S implementation of duke is a BIG deal. A lot of people would flock to it. There would be no "comfort zone". I am a example and most online players that i know also admit that a C/S duke would be a BIG deal and yes they would use Eduke32.
And btw it makes no sense to call it comfort zone. Sometimes you just get used to things and there's no real reason to change, is that being on the comfort zone? That can be applied to so many cases on real life that i dont even think i have to elaborate more on this. Your "analogy" makes no sense, we just want to play the game like it was origginally.

And why should everyone be on the same page? Some people would only want to play coop games on mods that make the game look completelly different from the original Duke, and that would be OK. Some other people would host servers with Hollywood Holocaust 1vs1 servers 24/7 and they would be ok with that. And there are people that enjoy both extremes and all there is in between (like me).

Your point about new tactics isn't really relevant to be honest. We learn new tactics on each new map, we play a lot of usermaps for fun, it's just that there have been a 2 decade old tradition to take some maps more seriously than the others (E.g. e1l1) and having it authoritarily changed is bad, can't you see this? All i'm defending is for it to be optional. If someone was against the warps and see them as cheating, host a server with the "bug solving" flag, if you're oldshcool and want to play the game like it was for 20+ years, play it with it turned off, it's simple.

[Radar]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

Warps are not a universal tactic that applies to all maps. It is almost exclusively used in vanilla maps. The vast majority of user maps don't have any warps. Statements like "get out of your box and rethink tactics and strategy" only reveal your ignorance.

[HellFire]

Yeah, a good portion of usermaps have very simplistic geometry, which results in having almost no warps.

[MusicallyInspired]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 07:29 AM, said:

What does that have to do with anything? They are blocked in online games.

As well they should be. Just like glitch exploits.

[Forge]

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Your point about new tactics isn't really relevant to be honest. We learn new tactics on each new map, we play a lot of usermaps for fun, it's just that there have been a 2 decade old tradition to take some maps more seriously than the others (E.g. e1l1) and having it authoritarily changed is bad, can't you see this? All i'm defending is for it to be optional.

my point isn't relevant about having to learn new tactics because you do it anyway?
- but then you get upset over having to learn new tactics in a map that you've already played before because the methodology that you've gotten used to in your comfort zone would no longer work?

interesting

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

Statements like "get out of your box and rethink tactics and strategy" only reveal your ignorance.

or they reveal more about your lack of ability to adapt


options: learn a new tradition,or don't.& stay in your comfort zone.


i have no dog in this fight, I just find it odd that people are complaining about the how changes will affect multiplayer in a port that doesn't have multiplayer capabilities

[HellFire]

Your point wans't relevant because yes, we do learn new tactics when we play on new maps (this means that your point makes no sense, we already do it in a way, it's not like were hiding on a comfort zone like you assumed).
But the maps that we know like the palm of our hands and have already applied years and years in trainning? Yeah, we'd like for that to not be authoritarily changed. If the way in which that particular map is played has to change, then it should come from us, the players that actually play the map like that, not from an external force that don't even understand why we play that map that way on the first place.

Playing duke like it was originally released is as "confort zone" as is for example, using the alphabet to comunicate instead of something else, or to play standard soccer instead of some variation that dont have a goalkeper, and if you dont want to see anything like that changed then thats because you're on a comfort zone? You can call all that a comfort zone, but then everything is a comfort zone to you.

[Forge]

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

learn to code

language examples? I'm old as dirt. I watched language morph with the internet. I adapted.

You are in a comfort zone. You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.
You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.


Still a hypothetical situation. eduke32 doesn't have multiplayer capabilities.

You're arguing to hear yourself argue.

You know that if eduke32 ever got multiplayer, Poda, or somebody, would fork it and remove the "problem" anyway.

[HellFire]

Dude, you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, but ok, we can do this meanigless discusion all day. I'm on.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

And why should this change? You'red efending change for the sake ofchange. Sometimes changes are necessary and everyone have to adapt, thats fair. Sometimes change is forced and society refuses to adapt, thats normal and happens all the time.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

learn to code

You're the "leftist authoritharian" in this discussion, just in case you didnt noticed.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.

Whats your evidence for this?

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.

Thats exactly what i'm doing right now, you have no idea what you're talking about.
"echo chamber"

[Forge]

i'm not defending the changes - i'm pointing out that you're complaining about a change in a port that doesn't have multiplayer.

if it ever did get multiplayer, then everyone will have to play the map the same way - without the exploit.

if you want to play with exploits - go play on the other port.

the option to do that doesn't cease to exist.

[Radar]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

learn to code

language examples? I'm old as dirt. I watched language morph with the internet. I adapted.

You are in a comfort zone. You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.
You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.


Still a hypothetical situation. eduke32 doesn't have multiplayer capabilities.

You're arguing to hear yourself argue.

You know that if eduke32 ever got multiplayer, Poda, or somebody, would fork it and remove the "problem" anyway.

My oh my, so many assumptions. This post reveals a lot more than you think.

Nobody on Meltdown hates duke4.net, EDuke32, or TerminX. There is plenty of support for EDuke32 on there. Perhaps you shouldn't presuppose the intentions of folks you don't know? As opposed to Hendricks' earlier posts, which make it very clear that the EDuke32 development team is not friendly to the online scene. Period.

[MusicallyInspired]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

As opposed to Hendricks' earlier posts, which make it very clear that the EDuke32 development team is not friendly to the online scene. Period.

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over it when they get rid of that. The wording Hendricks used was a bit elitist, but I'd say in this light that EDuke32 is far more friendly to the online scene than you would like to admit.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over that when they get rid of that.

don't multiplay in vanilla maps

[Radar]

I already said warps only affect vanilla maps. 98% of user maps have no warps.

Edit: forge beat me to it

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

My oh my, so many assumptions. This post reveals a lot more than you think.

my assumptions about the "rumors" of the environment at that site has little to do with a port preventing map exploits.

the fact that you have to zero in on that to indirectly discredit anything else I posted says a lot more than you think

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've already said warps only affect vanilla maps. 98% of user maps have no warps.

and definitely never multiplay in Caribbean

[HellFire]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

i'm not defending the changes - i'm pointing out that you're complaining about a change in a port that doesn't have multiplayer.

if it ever did get multiplayer, then everyone will have to play the map the same way - without the exploit.

if you want to play with exploits - go play on the other port.

the option to do that doesn't cease to exist.

Eduek32 will get mp eventually, and it being a C/S implementation is a BIG advantage. We would like to have that benefit as well, while also having the gameplay unchanged. We're not advocating for no change, we just want it to be optional, i dont really see the problem with my positioning.
Yeah the old ass ports will still exist, but again, a client server implementation has a lot of plusses, and we wouldnt want to miss that. And in the long run, what will keep duke alive is Eduke32, thats why i care.

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over that when they get rid of that.

The most important warpscan be learned in like 1 or 2 minutes. I've explained them to newcomers thousand and times, we justfire acoop session and tell him to see what i'm doing on coopview, then i explain to him which keys to use and it's done, he will be perfoming then in a matter of seconds, this isnt rocket science. You may argue that you dont liek the game that way, and its fine, but why you have to be so authoritarian about it? All i'm defending is for that to be a "global " option for the future when Eduke32 gets a C/S netcode. The server could be hosted with it enabled or not, whats wrong with this?

[Forge]

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

Eduek32 will get mp eventually

i've been hearing that for a dozen years

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

We would like to have that benefit as well, while also having the gameplay unchanged.

comfortable

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

We're not advocating for no change, we just want it to be optional,

someone will fork it out

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

i dont really see the problem with my positioning.

there isn't one

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

why you have to be so authoritarian about it?

no more than you

i have no dog in the fight. I'm just seeing where this goes.

[Kyanos]

I hate warps, megaton was brutal, corners with high ledges above them can be warped onto, no SOS just crouch wiggle strafe in any corner and poof, you're up on the next ledge.