[Radar]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:

Ah you're right. I forgot about those external modifications of the game like "cheat codes" and "console commands."

What does that have to do with anything? They are blocked in online games.

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

By "bread is buttered", I mean that duke4.net has the tendency to see mod exploits as "intended behavior by design", while dukematch exploits are seen as cheating. No, the sprite ladder exploit is just as much a bug as warps are. In a "proper" Build engine, you'd just get sandwiched between the sprites. And if the sprites are clustered very closely on the ladder, you shouldn't even be able to walk through them if their blocking bit is on.

so there are no sprite ladders in dukematch?

i can make some and donate them if you think it'll help

[Forge]

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

[HellFire]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

I dont think thats true. A C/S implementation of duke is a BIG deal. A lot of people would flock to it. There would be no "comfort zone". I am a example and most online players that i know also admit that a C/S duke would be a BIG deal and yes they would use Eduke32.
And btw it makes no sense to call it comfort zone. Sometimes you just get used to things and there's no real reason to change, is that being on the comfort zone? That can be applied to so many cases on real life that i dont even think i have to elaborate more on this. Your "analogy" makes no sense, we just want to play the game like it was origginally.

And why should everyone be on the same page? Some people would only want to play coop games on mods that make the game look completelly different from the original Duke, and that would be OK. Some other people would host servers with Hollywood Holocaust 1vs1 servers 24/7 and they would be ok with that. And there are people that enjoy both extremes and all there is in between (like me).

Your point about new tactics isn't really relevant to be honest. We learn new tactics on each new map, we play a lot of usermaps for fun, it's just that there have been a 2 decade old tradition to take some maps more seriously than the others (E.g. e1l1) and having it authoritarily changed is bad, can't you see this? All i'm defending is for it to be optional. If someone was against the warps and see them as cheating, host a server with the "bug solving" flag, if you're oldshcool and want to play the game like it was for 20+ years, play it with it turned off, it's simple.

[Radar]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

cheat? exploit? irrelevant.
in case you just joined the forum and don't know what's being discussed:
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the version of eduke32 that has multiplayer capabilities is nearly a decade old.
the port has been geared towards single-player for a very long time
if the port ever gained updated network capabilities, the majority of the online players would not flock to it anyway. they'd stay in their comfort zone and away from people they don't like.
if people did start using it for multiplayer games, everyone would be on the same page and have to learn new tactics. That does not necessarily translate as "ruined". It simply means you have to get out of your box and rethink tactics & strategy. It wouldn't be any different than playing a new map.

Warps are not a universal tactic that applies to all maps. It is almost exclusively used in vanilla maps. The vast majority of user maps don't have any warps. Statements like "get out of your box and rethink tactics and strategy" only reveal your ignorance.

[HellFire]

Yeah, a good portion of usermaps have very simplistic geometry, which results in having almost no warps.

[MusicallyInspired]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 07:29 AM, said:

What does that have to do with anything? They are blocked in online games.

As well they should be. Just like glitch exploits.

[Forge]

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Your point about new tactics isn't really relevant to be honest. We learn new tactics on each new map, we play a lot of usermaps for fun, it's just that there have been a 2 decade old tradition to take some maps more seriously than the others (E.g. e1l1) and having it authoritarily changed is bad, can't you see this? All i'm defending is for it to be optional.

my point isn't relevant about having to learn new tactics because you do it anyway?
- but then you get upset over having to learn new tactics in a map that you've already played before because the methodology that you've gotten used to in your comfort zone would no longer work?

interesting

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

Statements like "get out of your box and rethink tactics and strategy" only reveal your ignorance.

or they reveal more about your lack of ability to adapt


options: learn a new tradition,or don't.& stay in your comfort zone.


i have no dog in this fight, I just find it odd that people are complaining about the how changes will affect multiplayer in a port that doesn't have multiplayer capabilities

[HellFire]

Your point wans't relevant because yes, we do learn new tactics when we play on new maps (this means that your point makes no sense, we already do it in a way, it's not like were hiding on a comfort zone like you assumed).
But the maps that we know like the palm of our hands and have already applied years and years in trainning? Yeah, we'd like for that to not be authoritarily changed. If the way in which that particular map is played has to change, then it should come from us, the players that actually play the map like that, not from an external force that don't even understand why we play that map that way on the first place.

Playing duke like it was originally released is as "confort zone" as is for example, using the alphabet to comunicate instead of something else, or to play standard soccer instead of some variation that dont have a goalkeper, and if you dont want to see anything like that changed then thats because you're on a comfort zone? You can call all that a comfort zone, but then everything is a comfort zone to you.

[Forge]

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

learn to code

language examples? I'm old as dirt. I watched language morph with the internet. I adapted.

You are in a comfort zone. You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.
You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.


Still a hypothetical situation. eduke32 doesn't have multiplayer capabilities.

You're arguing to hear yourself argue.

You know that if eduke32 ever got multiplayer, Poda, or somebody, would fork it and remove the "problem" anyway.

[HellFire]

Dude, you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, but ok, we can do this meanigless discusion all day. I'm on.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

And why should this change? You'red efending change for the sake ofchange. Sometimes changes are necessary and everyone have to adapt, thats fair. Sometimes change is forced and society refuses to adapt, thats normal and happens all the time.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

learn to code

You're the "leftist authoritharian" in this discussion, just in case you didnt noticed.

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.

Whats your evidence for this?

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.

Thats exactly what i'm doing right now, you have no idea what you're talking about.
"echo chamber"

[Forge]

i'm not defending the changes - i'm pointing out that you're complaining about a change in a port that doesn't have multiplayer.

if it ever did get multiplayer, then everyone will have to play the map the same way - without the exploit.

if you want to play with exploits - go play on the other port.

the option to do that doesn't cease to exist.

[Radar]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

my point makes perfect sense - if nobody can use the exploit, then everyone has to learn a new way to play the map. Everyone. Will. Be. On. The. Same. Page.

learn to code

language examples? I'm old as dirt. I watched language morph with the internet. I adapted.

You are in a comfort zone. You hang out at Poda's with a bunch of Tx haters and play the same maps with the same people over and over and over.
You want a new port that works clean, but not have to deal with the people who made it, or any changes to the way you and the Podites play in your echo chamber.


Still a hypothetical situation. eduke32 doesn't have multiplayer capabilities.

You're arguing to hear yourself argue.

You know that if eduke32 ever got multiplayer, Poda, or somebody, would fork it and remove the "problem" anyway.

My oh my, so many assumptions. This post reveals a lot more than you think.

Nobody on Meltdown hates duke4.net, EDuke32, or TerminX. There is plenty of support for EDuke32 on there. Perhaps you shouldn't presuppose the intentions of folks you don't know? As opposed to Hendricks' earlier posts, which make it very clear that the EDuke32 development team is not friendly to the online scene. Period.

[MusicallyInspired]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

As opposed to Hendricks' earlier posts, which make it very clear that the EDuke32 development team is not friendly to the online scene. Period.

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over it when they get rid of that. The wording Hendricks used was a bit elitist, but I'd say in this light that EDuke32 is far more friendly to the online scene than you would like to admit.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over that when they get rid of that.

don't multiplay in vanilla maps

[Radar]

I already said warps only affect vanilla maps. 98% of user maps have no warps.

Edit: forge beat me to it

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

My oh my, so many assumptions. This post reveals a lot more than you think.

my assumptions about the "rumors" of the environment at that site has little to do with a port preventing map exploits.

the fact that you have to zero in on that to indirectly discredit anything else I posted says a lot more than you think

[Forge]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've already said warps only affect vanilla maps. 98% of user maps have no warps.

and definitely never multiplay in Caribbean

[HellFire]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

i'm not defending the changes - i'm pointing out that you're complaining about a change in a port that doesn't have multiplayer.

if it ever did get multiplayer, then everyone will have to play the map the same way - without the exploit.

if you want to play with exploits - go play on the other port.

the option to do that doesn't cease to exist.

Eduek32 will get mp eventually, and it being a C/S implementation is a BIG advantage. We would like to have that benefit as well, while also having the gameplay unchanged. We're not advocating for no change, we just want it to be optional, i dont really see the problem with my positioning.
Yeah the old ass ports will still exist, but again, a client server implementation has a lot of plusses, and we wouldnt want to miss that. And in the long run, what will keep duke alive is Eduke32, thats why i care.

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Look, I've been intrigued by Duke multiplayer for a little while now. But I'm not sure I want to get into it at all anymore. If I start playing with people online who are all taking advantage of game glitches I don't want to have to learn how to exploit warps just to be able to compete. It's unfair and it's not the type of game I want to play. However, when EDuke32 gets C/S multiplayer at last I'll be all over that when they get rid of that.

The most important warpscan be learned in like 1 or 2 minutes. I've explained them to newcomers thousand and times, we justfire acoop session and tell him to see what i'm doing on coopview, then i explain to him which keys to use and it's done, he will be perfoming then in a matter of seconds, this isnt rocket science. You may argue that you dont liek the game that way, and its fine, but why you have to be so authoritarian about it? All i'm defending is for that to be a "global " option for the future when Eduke32 gets a C/S netcode. The server could be hosted with it enabled or not, whats wrong with this?

[Forge]

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

Eduek32 will get mp eventually

i've been hearing that for a dozen years

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

We would like to have that benefit as well, while also having the gameplay unchanged.

comfortable

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

We're not advocating for no change, we just want it to be optional,

someone will fork it out

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

i dont really see the problem with my positioning.

there isn't one

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

why you have to be so authoritarian about it?

no more than you

i have no dog in the fight. I'm just seeing where this goes.

[Kyanos]

I hate warps, megaton was brutal, corners with high ledges above them can be warped onto, no SOS just crouch wiggle strafe in any corner and poof, you're up on the next ledge.

[oasiz]

[MusicallyInspired]

Forge, on 20 March 2019 - 10:25 AM, said:

don't multiplay in vanilla maps

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've already said warps only affect vanilla maps. 98% of user maps have no warps.

So now I'm barred from playing all the stock maps? The very maps that everyone who plays the game are guaranteed to have? And have to rely on user maps that many people won't have? Again, unfair.

HellFire, on 20 March 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

The most important warpscan be learned in like 1 or 2 minutes. I've explained them to newcomers thousand and times, we justfire acoop session and tell him to see what i'm doing on coopview, then i explain to him which keys to use and it's done, he will be perfoming then in a matter of seconds, this isnt rocket science. You may argue that you dont liek the game that way, and its fine, but why you have to be so authoritarian about it? All i'm defending is for that to be a "global " option for the future when Eduke32 gets a C/S netcode. The server could be hosted with it enabled or not, whats wrong with this?

Yeah, I don't want to play that game. But a global option would make sense. My only worry then would be how many servers would keep the old behaviour vs the new behaviour? In that light it doesn't really make sense to add the fix at all. But I understand having the fix. In the end it's Voidpoint's decision and they're going to do what they want to do. I understand the idea of having an option but I also understand why having the option could be counter-productive.

[Hendricks266]

Radar, on 20 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Nobody on Meltdown hates duke4.net, EDuke32, or TerminX.

Meltdown is the result of forking YANG and then failing to comply with the GPL, so there is an inherent problem here. I would call it code theft, from our friend nonetheless. Don't forget the fact that Meltdown piracy.

If Meltdown likes EDuke32 then why haven't they updated support for EDuke32-OldMP to any of Striker's new versions?

[Kyanos]

Meltdown is malware.

Poda has openly talked about the shit he can/does do to users of it, just ask him why it needs admin privileges xd

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

So now I'm barred from playing all the stock maps?

No.
You are only at a disadvantage.
adversity builds character
Deal.

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

unfair.

subjective and irrelevant

[Radar]

Hendricks266, on 20 March 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

Meltdown is the result of forking YANG and then failing to comply with the GPL, so there is an inherent problem here. I would call it code theft, from our friend nonetheless. Don't forget the fact that Meltdown piracy.

If Meltdown likes EDuke32 then why haven't they updated support for EDuke32-OldMP to any of Striker's new versions?

I can't defend Meltdown violating the GPL. I agree with you there. But I also think it's worth clarifying that there is no "they" involved here. "They" didn't put pirated copies of each game in the Meltdown installer. Poda did. And we ask him about these things quite frequently. We bring up quite often how Meltdown shouldn't require administrator rights. And regarding EDuke32-OldMP, not only have we asked for that, but other common requests include implementing BloodGDX or NBlood, as well as reinstating XDuke which was recently removed.

[Radar]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

So now I'm barred from playing all the stock maps? The very maps that everyone who plays the game are guaranteed to have? And have to rely on user maps that many people won't have? Again, unfair.

Stock maps are not suitable for dukematch anyway. Weapons are very sparse in the original maps. E1L1 is used as a benchmark for skill simply because it is the first map in the game. I myself am not a vanilla map player.

But an experienced player will win even if he can't use warps.

[High Treason]

Damn, I dread to think how long you had to search for a user DM map that wasn't either just a selection of unshaded Tile #0 corridors and boxes with useless items scattered willy nilly all over the shop, or else some piece of crap designed (ha, right, usually modified someone else's work poorly) to let the host win (usually with said host getting mad if you figure out how to work the map yourself).

Nonetheless, I can see how it almost does look like only oddities which lend the player an advantage are being fixed, it's not like any of the things which actually damage gameplay are being run after as of late. I don't actually think this is the case, priority is almost certainly dictated by what Ion Maiden needs at any given time and besides, I only DM in the DOS version of Duke anyway... incidentally if anyone knows of a good IPX tunneler that will run on Win9X and DOS, let me know.

I'm tempted to make a slight to the effect of; The stock maps have plenty of items, you just don't know how to lap the map to get the most use out of them, but I shan't.

[LeoD]

To all the moderators and admins hanging around here:
Please do what your tag implies and move this discussion to its own thread, like" EDuke32 changes and multiplayer".