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Shadow Warrior corner  "This thread has alotta Wangs! Discussions on Shadow Warrior only."

#541

View PostHendricks266, on 19 March 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

ERampage is garbage. It's half sloppy hack of the source code, half CON mod that doesn't get things right. The weapons and inventory are still basically Duke.

If you like it, I would recommend ZBlood.

I'm not saying I like it. I'm saying I'd like to see something better. If I was content with what was released, I wouldn't bring it up.
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User is offline   VGA 

#542

So the mines are invisible in Classic Redux but were visible in the DOS version?
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#543

Any port using the Polymost rendered will have that issue.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#544

View Postenderandrew, on 19 March 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

Someone modified an old version of EDuke32 to work with Redneck Rampage and their source code is out there. I imagine it would be possible to try and identify what revision of EDuke32 they used as a starting point, run a diff of the two code bases and try to merge the changes back into the latest trunk of EDuke32.

Redneck Rampage was, I believe, built on top of Duke's code - Shadow Warrior wasn't. So even if ERampage would have been any good, the same method still couldn't easily be applied to Shadow Warrior.

View PostVGA, on 19 March 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

So the mines are invisible in Classic Redux but were visible in the DOS version?

View PostPhredreeke, on 19 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Any port using the Polymost rendered will have that issue.

They are visible in the software mode, but Classic Redux doesn't have software mode as an option.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

#545

View PostHendricks266, on 19 March 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

ERampage is garbage.

Sadly I have to agree there, it doesn't feel like the original game at all.
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User is online   Mark 

  • Polymer fanboy

#546

I'm not a perfectionist. I have enjoyed playing many maps in ERampage. Just because its unfinished I wouldn't call it garbage.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 20 March 2018 - 04:30 AM

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #547

It's not just unfinished, it actively went in the wrong direction. Much like PolymerNG.
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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#548

And what icecoldduke tried to do with IcedSW. He presumably (and hopefully) stopped after realizing he entered a cul de sac with his approach.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 20 March 2018 - 12:47 PM

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User is online   Mark 

  • Polymer fanboy

#549

View PostHendricks266, on 20 March 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

It's not just unfinished, it actively went in the wrong direction. Much like PolymerNG.

Having no knowledge of game programming I have no idea if the ER guy went in the "wrong" direction or just a different direction than you would have taken. So I can't give an argument for either one. <_< Not that it really matters. Its been abandoned. Kind of a shame because I wanted to continue the mini-hrp I started years ago. But for such an extremely small audience its not worth it.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 20 March 2018 - 07:04 PM

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#550

View PostMark., on 20 March 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

Having no knowledge of game programming I have no idea if the ER guy went in the "wrong" direction or just a different direction than you would have taken. So I can't give an argument for either one. <_< Not that it really matters. Its been abandoned. Kind of a shame because I wanted to continue the mini-hrp I started years ago. But for such an extremely small audience its not worth it.

I really like EDuke32 as an engine. I think it has breathed a lot of life into Duke Nukem and helped maintain that community.

If EDuke32 added support to play more Build engine games (in separate executables most likely) then I think we'd suddenly have a larger audience appreciating those other games.

I can't speak with any knowledge or authority on whether or not icecoldduke made good or bad decisions in his attempts at PolymerNG or his SW fork of EDuke32. Conceptually some of the things he discussed (multi-threading, Vulkan support, UWP support to play on the XBox One) sound nice but I have no idea how well he was implementing those or not. I hope he wasn't completely run off and that he tries to finish some of his projects at some point. Likewise, I hope to see a proper project to support Redneck Rampage. I assume there is value in looking at what was started with ERampage to apply lessons learned, but that is an assumption.

I've never coded a 3D engine. My free time is spent elsewhere. I can't really do these types of projects myself. I can only hope others might.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#551

What ICD did with the sw port was go completely off the rails.
He started bolting in third-party packages that carried their third-party licensing baggage.

It wasn't going to be a self-contained package, and it was only going to work once.
That in of itself was no big deal because it was only supposed to be used for a mod he wanted to make.


When his aspirations changed, that's when it became an issue.

Upgrading or modifying anything would have required dealing with all the extra crap attached to it.
You couldn't just change Mr. Potato Head's nose. You had to hold it upside down and shake all the parts off of it, then put on all new parts.

This post has been edited by Forge: 20 March 2018 - 07:48 PM

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#552

View PostForge, on 20 March 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

What ICD did with the sw port was go completely off the rails.
He started bolting in third-party packages that carried their third-party licensing baggage.

Third-party packages for image/model support makes a whole lot of sense, which is why pretty much every engine on the planet does this. I recall someone (Hendricks?) saying it was a license violation to include FMOD, when in reality it wasn't, and other GPL engines use it just fine. You're legally allowed to include FMOD in a non-commercial product. I don't know that ICD knew that Hendricks was going to use EDuke32 for a commercial product like Ion Maiden. Had Hendricks said "I want the freedom to sell the engine commercially" that might have swayed ICD. Instead the argument seemed to be framed (from my recollection) that third party packages for formats are inherently bad. I disagree, and again, most engine developers on the planet seem to as well.

Again, I didn't review his code. I don't know anything about the EDuke32 codebase specifically. I don't know much about 3D engine development. I can't speak to the overall quality or most decisions made by ICD.

What I can say is that the communication I saw was disheartening. I saw ICD make specific changes based upon actional feedback. But I didn't see him receive much actionable feedback. And if more specific feedback was given on FMOD (such as wanting to be able to sell the engine in a commercial product) that might have made a difference.
-1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#553

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I can't speak with any knowledge or authority on whether or not icecoldduke made good or bad decisions in his attempts at PolymerNG or his SW fork of EDuke32.

So then you lied here?^

It appears you are speaking with some kind of authority.

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

Third-party packages for image/model support makes a whole lot of sense, which is why pretty much every engine on the planet does this. I recall someone (Hendricks?) saying it was a license violation to include FMOD, when in reality it wasn't, and other GPL engines use it just fine. You're legally allowed to include FMOD in a non-commercial product. I don't know that ICD knew that Hendricks was going to use EDuke32 for a commercial product like Ion Maiden. Had Hendricks said "I want the freedom to sell the engine commercially" that might have swayed ICD. Instead the argument seemed to be framed (from my recollection) that third party packages for formats are inherently bad. I disagree, and again, most engine developers on the planet seem to as well.

What I can say is that the communication I saw was disheartening. I saw ICD make specific changes based upon actional feedback. But I didn't see him receive much actionable feedback. And if more specific feedback was given on FMOD (such as wanting to be able to sell the engine in a commercial product) that might have made a difference.

I gave him a lot of feedback. Including issues with the things he was trying to bolt on. Including the licensing issue. Whether the product went commercial or not, there were still conflicts of interest.
Hendricks may have been harsh with his criticism, but he had valid points of consideration most of the time.

It's why ICD finally decided to go with OpenAL.
At least that's the last thing he said he was going with before he disappeared.
(and I hope he's doing okay, where ever he is)
1

User is offline   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#554

View PostForge, on 20 March 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

At least that's the last thing he said he was going with before he disappeared.
(and I hope he's doing okay, where ever he is)


The bottom line is that the disappearing part makes the other issues moot. He may or may not have deserved all the flack he got, but his project is certainly going nowhere without him.

I think the EDuke team intends to make significant optimizations to polymost which is still very CPU bound. Once that's done, perhaps dynamic lighting could be added to polymost, and polymer would be put out to pasture. EDIT: Although obviously it might be quite a long time before any of that benefits SW.

This post has been edited by Trooper Dan: 20 March 2018 - 08:37 PM

0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #555

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

Third-party packages for image/model support makes a whole lot of sense, which is why pretty much every engine on the planet does this. I recall someone (Hendricks?) saying it was a license violation to include FMOD, when in reality it wasn't, and other GPL engines use it just fine. You're legally allowed to include FMOD in a non-commercial product. I don't know that ICD knew that Hendricks was going to use EDuke32 for a commercial product like Ion Maiden. Had Hendricks said "I want the freedom to sell the engine commercially" that might have swayed ICD. Instead the argument seemed to be framed (from my recollection) that third party packages for formats are inherently bad. I disagree, and again, most engine developers on the planet seem to as well.

Duke 3D or SW being GPL and FMOD being under anything but the GPL (or something upgradable to the GPL) """in reality""" is the definition of a GPL violation.

Other engines """using it just fine""" is either abject violation and lack of enforcement, or a specific kind of plug-in style dynamic object loading that I doubt ICD was using.

Commercial vs. non-commercial is immaterial. Either way, ICD knew full well that using EDuke32 commercially was on the table, due to Ion Maiden (before it had that name), and HTTKC before it.

Moreover, you are misrepresenting me. My criticism was more than legal nitpicking. Using any off-the-shelf sound library, including FMOD and OpenAL, will never get you the same results as the existing mixer used by the games.

You also fail to remember that ICD was rip and tearing the sound library to solve a bug that IIRC ended up being unrelated to sound.

I'm not alone in my anti-FMOD professional judgment.

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

What I can say is that the communication I saw was disheartening. I saw ICD make specific changes based upon actional feedback. But I didn't see him receive much actionable feedback.

I've already explained this.

Were you around for the PolymerNG thread? My actionable feedback was ignored, or at best dismissed with ":)", so I stopped trying. ICD needed to start "getting it" and not need constant leash-dragging, but instead he only accelerated on his own feature-driven path of ruin.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#556

View PostHendricks266, on 20 March 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

solve a bug that IIRC ended up being unrelated to sound.

No, It was sound related. I helped him isolate it. I don't have the PMs anymore, so I can't give the proper details.
He couldn't figure it out with the code he had, no matter how much he changed it & that's why he got silly with trying to bolt in OpenAL.
He definitely bit off more than he could chew with that one.

+1 to everything else though
1

#557

View PostForge, on 20 March 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

So then you lied here?^

It appears you are speaking with some kind of authority.

It isn't a lie. I can't speak on the quality of his code.

I can speak on whether or not in theory it makes sense to include third party libraries to provide support for file formats.

View PostHendricks266, on 20 March 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Duke 3D or SW being GPL and FMOD being under anything but the GPL (or something upgradable to the GPL) """in reality""" is the definition of a GPL violation.


I believe ICD said was loading FMOD as a plugin or library, which would be allowed in a GPL project. I also said my recollection of your objections could have been off.

I did read the entire PolymerNG thread. You pretty much told him from the moment he experimented with XBox One builds that you had no interest in merging in anything he was ever doing and that it was all crap. I don't see that as specific or actional feedback to where he could improve the renderer. And while EDuke32 is a great project on the whole, I do think an improved renderer could really benefit it. But that is also speaking to my personal tastes of enjoying find ways to make old games look better. Other people really just want that classic software renderer. To each their own.

This post has been edited by enderandrew: 20 March 2018 - 09:30 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#558

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:

It isn't a lie. I can't speak on the quality of his code.

The statement you made is "decisions", not code.
Your double-speak doesn't work well in text that can be returned to and re-read.

You aren't an authority to speak on his decisions,
but you still think he made the right decision with conflicting licenses.
You are supporting his decisions (vehemently)
That kinda means you are an authority on his decisions.
Liar.

No matter how you try to spin it, the (FMOD) license conflicted.
You should probably go back and read the last few pages of his thread again where it was discussed & then he decided on OpenAL.

OpenAL is okay in relation to the license (afaik), but Hendricks pointed out the flaw of using it instead of the native mixer.
So it's still a bad decision.
It's no longer a port, it's an emulator.

This post has been edited by Forge: 20 March 2018 - 10:00 PM

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#559

View PostForge, on 20 March 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

but you still think he made the right decision with conflicting licenses.
You are supporting his decisions (vehemently)
That kinda means you are an authority on his decisions.
Liar.

I was speaking about the specific choices he made in his code.

I made it clear that I was speaking later about a generality.

Those are two very different things and you're calling me a liar? Don't do that. Ad hominem attacks don't get you anywhere.

ICD seemed confident that his use of FMOD was fine, but as I Google it, it does seem like he may have been wrong. I thought GPLv2 allowed you to link to a closed source library, but it looks like that may only be the case if you own the copyright to all the code to put in a special exception to the code. GPL software can load a completely closed-source plugin, but you can't link to a closed source library without the copyright holders signing off on that. I did recall other GPL projects using FMOD, but they probably had the copyright holders sign off on it here. But ICD did not have Hendricks' permission so it was a no go here.

This post has been edited by enderandrew: 20 March 2018 - 11:59 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#560

View Posticecoldduke, on 26 July 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

Fine. I'll drop FMOD and go with OpenAL : ).

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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#561

Considering what we heard about the port since then, he rather meant "I'll drop IcedSW and go with God (but go)"...
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #562

View Postenderandrew, on 20 March 2018 - 11:46 PM, said:

But ICD did not have Hendricks' permission so it was a no go here.

A linking exemption for FMOD would require permission from everyone who contributed to the GPL part of the code. So, Devolver for the game code, 3D Realms for the audiolib, JonoF for JFSW...
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

#563

View Posticecoldduke, on 26 May 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

There are binaries here https://github.com/j...master/binaries I will make new binaries this weekend with the updated changes.

The link gives an error 404, and the master.zip doesn't seem to include any binaries. Can you please re-upload?
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User is offline   Player Lin 

#564

View PostMrFlibble, on 22 March 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

The link gives an error 404, and the master.zip doesn't seem to include any binaries. Can you please re-upload?


Guess icecoldduke removed that for some reasons...

Quote

Last Active: Aug 16 2017 08:22 PM


Yeah, good luck for wait him come back again.
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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#565

The only good thing about the port is that it supports ogg music and higher resolutions than SWP. Besides that, better wait for a decent port or at least an update for SWP (even though that's rather unlikely to happen).

This post has been edited by NightFright: 22 March 2018 - 08:32 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#566

This port is broke, don't bother if you want to use it for serious gaming.

It randomly crashes because of issues with how it handles audio.

Saving too many times (either over-writing old saves or as individual new saves) corrupts the save files and makes the game crash almost immediately after loading a save.

This port hates the sumo sky palace level. It randomly crashes in the room with the spinning blades (right after killing the serpent & getting the red key) & also during the sumo boss fight.

I don't think he ever fixed the snail-pace ladder climbing (down) issue either


View PostNightFright, on 22 March 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

The only good thing about the port is that it supports ogg music and higher resolutions than SWP. Besides that, better wait for a decent port or at least an update for SWP (even though that's rather unlikely to happen).

and mouse support. he got that working pretty good.

This post has been edited by Forge: 22 March 2018 - 09:18 AM

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User is online   Mark 

  • Polymer fanboy

#567

How could you forget...It had dynamic lighting too.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 22 March 2018 - 10:06 AM

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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#568

I probably have a heavily hard-coded version of the port somewhere that plays the first level. It's not something you can really play the game with, but is an interesting technical curiosity. The framerate was pretty good considering all the dynamic lights with shadows that weapons spawned.

But yeah, ICD's methodology seemed to involve getting features in as quickly as possible, rather than putting them in smartly in a way that would pay off down the track. For example, he was talking about putting in some kind of scripting system, except he'd be adding scripting features as he needed them, rather than planning out a coherent system in advance, or something like that.

He also programmed things in a way someone would with a modern, commercial game, as opposed to build. In build, where everything's flexible and dynamic, you need to handle everything carefully. An example that comes to mind is that he wanted to implement a skybox feature that was not unlike polymer's, where it's just drawn to the background and you can't support more than one sky. The biggest concession he was willing to make was multiple skies in a map where you can only see one sky at a time on screen. There are a few maps that rely on showing multiple skies in the same area; not many, but they exist. However it's a good example of how he wasn't aiming for full build compatibility in terms of what was possible as a basic feature in other renderers.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#569

View PostMark., on 22 March 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

How could you forget...It had dynamic lighting too.

Ah, wonderful magical moving trash-bins with transparent bottoms and your shadow clipping through, how I miss thee
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User is offline   Master O 

#570

Look who's made it into QCDE:

https://youtu.be/BAhsYI6SQ_c?t=1m29s
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