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Blood corner  "For Blood 1 & 2 related talk."

#331

View Postaxl, on 04 June 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

New version of BloodGDX released ! v0.766

http://m210.duke4.net/

I can't remember if this was brought up before, but since everyone just wants to play Blood on modern hardware re-creating the codebase is a bad idea(remember my bad idea to do the same shit 15 years ago :)). To me it seems the best approach is to hook in the original exe into eduke32. It would require a lot of patience but i think in the end it would require less fiddly fucking then m210 approach.

In theory if you put dosbox into its own thread and executed the blood.exe, then you hooked all build functions and created a wrapper around those hooks so the proper calls got routed to eduke32. From there its just audio and input and you should be able to continue to let dosbox handle all that for you. Basically the 30,000 foot view of this idea is, you have Blood running in a virtual machine, and all the engine commands are re-routed to eduke32. Then you would have to have a watcher system that copies the changes to sprites/sector/walls from the BloodVM to eduke32. This way you don't have to fiddly fuck with the game code to make everything 1:1 with the original game, and you get it play it on modern hardware. The only advantage I can see to m210 approach is having code that people can mod, but since his shit is closed source I can't see hes interested in that at all.

You could probably even find the addresses by using the build objs that shipped with Shadow Warrior and Duke3D as a reference to find everything in the blood exe that you need.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 04 June 2017 - 07:51 AM

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User is offline   axl 

#332

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

I can't remember if this was brought up before, but since everyone just wants to play Blood on modern hardware re-creating the codebase is a bad idea(remember my bad idea to do the same shit 15 years ago :)). To me it seems the best approach is to hook in the original exe into eduke32. It would require a lot of patience but i think in the end it would require less fiddly fucking then m210 approach.

In theory if you put dosbox into its own thread and executed the blood.exe, then you hooked all build functions and created a wrapper around those hooks so the proper calls got routed to eduke32. From there its just audio and input and you should be able to continue to let dosbox handle all that for you. Basically the 30,000 foot view of this idea is, you have Blood running in a virtual machine, and all the engine commands are re-routed to eduke32. Then you would have to have a watcher system that copies the changes to sprites/sector/walls from the BloodVM to eduke32. This way you don't have to fiddly fuck with the game code to make everything 1:1 with the original game, and you get it play it on modern hardware. The only advantage I can see to m210 approach is having code that people can mod, but since his shit is closed source I can't see hes interested in that at all.
B
You could probably even find the addresses by using the build objs that shipped with Shadow Warrior and Duke3D as a reference to find everything in the blood exe that you need.


You could be right since I have to admit I know jack shit of this kinda stuff. If I'm not mistaken this same approach was also mentioned by Pyscho87 and/or Hendricks266 in the past? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the majority of the people here just want to enjoy Blood in all it's glory on modern hardware with good controls (especially the mouse which feels terribly outdated in dosbox). But I admit I'm also worried about the "future-proofness" of these closed ports. We need a port that is / can be updated by more than one person so the future of the game would be guaranteed.

This post has been edited by axl: 04 June 2017 - 08:48 AM

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#333

View Postaxl, on 04 June 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

You could be right since I have to admit I know jack shit of this kinda stuff. If I'm not mistaken this same approach was also mentioned by Pyscho87 and/or Hendricks266 in the past? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure they did. Until the source code gets released it is the only way to make a authentic blood port.
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User is offline   axl 

#334

View PostPikaCommando, on 04 June 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

To those who beat Blood 2... how the hell did you do it?

Been trying to beat this game for who knows how long and I still can't do it on Normal. I find myself wasting all my ammo trying to hit Bone Leechs/Spiders because they're so small, sticks on the floor (usually underwater), and the game is so dark I can't see shit (even worse if they're underwater because the water texture blocks it). Being latched on by one of them is pretty much game over since they're a pain to get off, but having no ammo while facing those Soul Drudges are problematic too.


Difficulty balance in Blood 2 is all over the place. "Normal" feels like very hard. But playing on "Easy" feels like a walk in the park.
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#335

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

I'm sure they did. Until the source code gets released it is the only way to make a authentic blood port.


I have a pretty decent IDA database of blood, with the build functions mapped out. Maybe it's time to abandon your current project and give that a go ;)
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User is offline   Psycho87 

#336

View Postsirlemonhead, on 04 June 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

I have a pretty decent IDA database of blood, with the build functions mapped out. Maybe it's time to abandon your current project and give that a go ;)


That database is still sitting on my hard drive. It will be quite useful if I start working on BloodBox again. But if Jace & friends release the source code or a good port themselves, all that time and effort will have been for naught. So for now, I'm just going to wait for more info.
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#337

View PostPsycho87, on 04 June 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

That database is still sitting on my hard drive. It will be quite useful if I start working on BloodBox again. But if Jace & friends release the source code or a good port themselves, all that time and effort will have been for naught. So for now, I'm just going to wait for more info.


Ah yeah, forgot I sent that to you :) I work on it from time to time - find it oddly relaxing to do reverse engineering stuff.

I have a reverse engineered version of Barf that runs on modern windows, a basic version of Mapedit.

I have most of the QTools stuff done too - my plan is to be able to recompile the alpha source. Just because :)

Give me a shout if you ever decide to do anything with the IDA database so I can make sure I send you the latest version.
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User is offline   Psycho87 

#338

View Postsirlemonhead, on 04 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Give me a shout if you ever decide to do anything with the IDA database so I can make sure I send you the latest version.


Will do :)
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#339

View Postsirlemonhead, on 04 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

I have a reverse engineered version of Barf that runs on modern windows, a basic version of Mapedit.

I have a lot to do with Shadow Warrior right now :) but you should post the ida database up somewhere(or atleast a map file with all the function/variable addresses you have). It would be a great thing for the community to have.
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User is offline   Psycho87 

#340

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I have a lot to do with Shadow Warrior right now :) but you should post the ida database up somewhere(or atleast a map file with all the function/variable addresses you have). It would be a great thing for the community to have.


Yes, and we could then work together to reverse engineer the game, and bring stuff over to BloodBox or some other project. I still have the project up on github (https://github.com/MarkZ87/BloodBox). There's already quite some stuff from engine.c in there.
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User is offline   Master O 

#341

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

I'm sure they did. Until the source code gets released it is the only way to make a authentic blood port.


Ultimately, the source code's not getting released legally until someone out there puts up the money to buy the IP from Atari. Until then, it's just going to sit there collecting dust because the people running Atari are greedy. If that IP is eventually purchased, hopefully whoever acquires the IP will come to their senses and release the source code.
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

#342

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

In theory if you put dosbox into its own thread and executed the blood.exe, then you hooked all build functions and created a wrapper around those hooks so the proper calls got routed to eduke32. From there its just audio and input and you should be able to continue to let dosbox handle all that for you. Basically the 30,000 foot view of this idea is, you have Blood running in a virtual machine, and all the engine commands are re-routed to eduke32. Then you would have to have a watcher system that copies the changes to sprites/sector/walls from the BloodVM to eduke32.

One of the advantages of running a game natively via a source port/recreation is that it doesn't munch up as many system resources as are required when you run an emulation/VM. Perhaps it could be possible - at least, in theory - to produce some kind of interpreter that would work in the model you described instead of a VM? Or have I misunderstood your idea?
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#343

View PostMrFlibble, on 06 June 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

One of the advantages of running a game natively via a source port/recreation is that it doesn't munch up as many system resources as are required when you run an emulation/VM. Perhaps it could be possible - at least, in theory - to produce some kind of interpreter that would work in the model you described instead of a VM? Or have I misunderstood your idea?

If you shove dosbox into its own core the performance hit vs native is small. The additional memory hit would be the cost of dosbox + eduke3d memory overhead. The small performance difference between this idea and m210 would be really small. His shit is in a vm too because he's coding in Java.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 06 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

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#344

Someone have noticed that the port seems can't interpret the "nothingness" correctly, expecially in the middle zones of the floor/ceiling holes? Visually is the same bug which occurs in Eduke32 when there is no texture where it should be.
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User is offline   Master O 

#345

View Posticecoldduke, on 04 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

I'm sure they did. Until the source code gets released it is the only way to make a authentic blood port.


The problem is if you guys successfully reverse engineer it, Atari is but a Cease and Desist Notice away from legally making you stop. Unfortunately, Atari would be well within its rights to do that if it wanted.
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#346

View PostMaster O, on 06 June 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

The problem is if you guys successfully reverse engineer it, Atari is but a Cease and Desist Notice away from legally making you stop. Unfortunately, Atari would be well within its rights to do that if it wanted.

Agreed, which is one reason why I'm staying the hell away from this. I wonder how the recent supreme court ruling Impression Products v. Lexmark would affect a legal case like this, and if software tinkering would fall under the broader "right to tinker" legal doctrine.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 06 June 2017 - 01:37 PM

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User is offline   Master O 

#347

View Posticecoldduke, on 06 June 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Agreed, which is one reason why I'm staying the hell away from this. I wonder how the recent supreme court ruling Impression Products v. Lexmark would affect a legal case like this, and if software tinkering would fall under the broader "right to tinker" legal doctrine.


It's why I've been saying if people really want Blood's source code, the money will have to be raised to get the IP away from Atari. Until then, it's going to remain in legal limbo forever. It sucks to have to pay their ransom, but I see no other legal alternative.
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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #348

View Posticecoldduke, on 06 June 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

I wonder how the recent supreme court ruling Impression Products v. Lexmark would affect a legal case like this, and if software tinkering would fall under the broader "right to tinker" legal doctrine.

The act of reverse engineering is protected, but distributing the resulting copyrighted source approximations is not.
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#349

View PostHendricks266, on 06 June 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

The act of reverse engineering is protected, but distributing the resulting copyrighted source approximations is not.

If you read the court case the defendant was actually reselling copyrighted material(refilled one use printer cartriges) which is why I'm wondering how this case applies to tinkering with a exe and redistributing it.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 06 June 2017 - 03:36 PM

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User is offline   Master O 

#350

View Posticecoldduke, on 06 June 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

If you read the court case the defendant was actually reselling copyrighted material(refilled one use printer cartriges) which is why I'm wondering how this case applies to tinkering with a exe and redistributing it.


I'm sure there would be a legal distinction there between the distributed binary vs its source code if it ever got to litigation. That would be something that ultimately ends up at the Supreme Court.

So it basically goes back to my point: As long as the IP remains with Atari, everyone's hands are tied.

This post has been edited by Master O: 06 June 2017 - 03:55 PM

1

User is online   Lunick 

  • Snazzy Ex Tazzy

#351

View PostMaster O, on 06 June 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

So it basically goes back to my point: As long as the IP remains with Atari, everyone's hands are tied.

Warner Brothers.
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #352

View Posticecoldduke, on 06 June 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Agreed, which is one reason why I'm staying the hell away from this.

Haha, yeah, you've already had enough problems like that haven't you? :D
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#353

View PostTerminX, on 06 June 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

Haha, yeah, you've already had enough problems like that haven't you? :D

Yeah *sad face* :P.
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #354

View Posticecoldduke, on 06 June 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yeah *sad face* :P.

Nobody likes being caught up in a Blizzard.
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User is offline   Master O 

#355

View PostLunick, on 06 June 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

Warner Brothers.


So why does everyone mention Atari? I thought WB only had the movie rights, while Atari had rights to the games themselves?
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User is offline   Hank 

#356

View PostMaster O, on 06 June 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

So why does everyone mention Atari? I thought WB only had the movie rights, while Atari had rights to the games themselves?

This is a statement from Damien
https://forums.duke4...post__p__193643
it may help
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User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#357

The are only two hopes, one is WB and Atari go under and sell off their properties.

The more realistic scenario is someone with balls and an IDGAF attitude just straight up leaks it.
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User is offline   axl 

#358

View PostJimmy, on 06 June 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

The are only two hopes, one is WB and Atari go under and sell off their properties.

The more realistic scenario is someone with balls and an IDGAF attitude just straight up leaks it.


Just a question: if somebody indeed would leak the source code and another person would make a port based on this leaked source code, would the latter then be in infringement?
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #359

View Postaxl, on 07 June 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

Just a question: if somebody indeed would leak the source code and another person would make a port based on this leaked source code, would the latter then be in infringement?

Lol, ask M210.
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#360

Is it just me or does BLOOD9.MID from the Blood alpha sound like Doom's E1M8? Are they based off the same song from some metal band?

This post has been edited by PikaCommando: 07 June 2017 - 05:41 AM

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