[t800]

Micky C, on 19 June 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:

I remember being disappointed that the tank was a scripted sequence instead of a drivable vehicle. They showed that in the trailer, and most people who see that and are familiar with Build would think it was a drivable vehicle, which made the trailer a bit misleading.

Well, I wouldnt mind some rideable futuristic hoverbike for Shelly in sequel. But I would prefer having it in sprite (or even better - voxel) form akin to Redneck rather than sector based as in SW. It made them quite clunky and bit "glitchy" there.

[Mblackwell]

TBH, partly for fairness and partly for performance the enemies aren't as smart as they could be. It also reduces the burden on level design in terms of how much additional work they have to do.

If the encounters had been designed for a bit less of a mob-like situation more intelligent AI could be used, but to compensate for a lot of potential pitfalls ends up with a big cost in the end. In IF you end up running multiple hundreds of checks per tic, and that's after I increased some of the assumptions they can make.

Oh, I should say AI is a bit different in 1.1 though, due to tweaks and fixes. Should also be more performant.

[MusicallyInspired]

I LOVE Dark Forces. The map design is ingenius in that it makes each level feel like a huge world. The levels are so lengthy (in time and size) that it's easy to get lost, but you're never TRULY lost. It took a while but I managed to nail down each and every map (including Anoat City, which isn't even the worst map in this regard). It's really a shame that Dark Forces mod for Jedi Academy was never finished. I would have loved to have seen the Executor and Arc Hammer remade. It truly feels like Star Wars. I've never seen any map designs follow it. Jedi Knight sort of is inspired by it (and its maps feel even BIGGER), but it's not the same. Dark Forces is something truly special. I still have to play through Outlaws actually. I wonder if that same map design technique is present in that game.

It's been quite a while since I've played Ion Fury. I must remedy that...

[Morpheus Kitami]

Outlaws kind of has that level technique, but its more focused on big open exteriors than Dark Forces was.

[MrFlibble]

I got to Zone 3 and am immediately plunged into classic Duke style level design and gameplay. Very refreshing! Also the end-Zone 2 boss battle was less taxing than I was worried it would be (I have to confess, usually I don't like boss battles very much; I did not finish the preview campaign back in 2018 because of that, in fact). I appreciated the secret Duke room very much, thanks!

Also the design of Heskel's office building sells the concept of cybernetic-enhancing mad scientist with good intentions just perfectly. I'd say this is a clear step above and beyond the other Build games in terms of interweaving level themes and plot narrative. I can't pinpoint the exact inspirations for this trope in movies or other games (a genius-level figure who invents a technology for the betterment of humanity and then turns a villain) but the theme is clearly coherent and is well reflected in the actual level design.

I'm still wondering about the enemy behaviours, the AI seems to work better in more closed spaces, but I can't but think if I'm missing something with what the cybers are capable of? So far each enemy appears to have just one attack, the regular technocultist (BTW, do they have official names?) and the shotgun/grenade guy appear to be able to crouch sometimes, but that's it. Whereas in Duke, each of the basic enemies has some extra quirk (jetpack, teleportation, secondary close-range spitting attack for the Enforcer; the Pig Cop was supposed to be able too butt the player with the rifle); in SW, the basic ninjas can throw shurikens in addition to the Uzi attack, jump around and crawl; coolies spawn ghosts, rippers cling to walls, ghosts phase in and out; in Blood the cultists also have secondary attacks IIRC.

Mblackwell, on 20 June 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

Oh, I should say AI is a bit different in 1.1 though, due to tweaks and fixes. Should also be more performant.

Waitasec, I still have v1.02, GOG installer. Downloaded it just a few weeks ago. Did I miss something? Or is v1.1 not released yet? Do I need to get a patch?

[NNC]

MusicallyInspired, on 20 June 2020 - 05:36 PM, said:

The levels are so lengthy (in time and size) that it's easy to get lost, but you're never TRULY lost.

That's what I call bad map design. As soon as you lose the feeling of being somewhere or moving forward or being inside an adventure, you should stop playing because the game/level doesn't worth your time anymore.

[NNC]

NightFright, on 19 June 2020 - 05:19 AM, said:

@necroslut:

After having replayed Dark Forces a few months ago after not having touched the game since it came out, I have to mostly agree with your assessment. While the game creates a great Star Wars atmosphere in general with its locations, music and sounds, the levels themselves are just too huge and confusing (I still hate that sewer level early on in the campaign), which is probably like that to compensate that there are just 14 of them. That combined with the questionable checkpoint system which forces you to play through an entire level in one session before your progress is actually saved is what mostly breaks the game for me these days. If this can be fixed with a port (TheForceEngine, I count on you), accessibility and playability would profit a lot. Towards the end of the game it also gets overly hard with all those Dark Troopers hunting you down. If you don't have at least the impenetrable shields cheat activated in the menu, you are in for a massive loss of your hopefully accumulated extra lives.

I still think it's a great game, but the original Dark Forces campaign as it stands feels like a chore to get through the way it was realized. However, there are quite a few really nice user levels and campaigns out there which still make it worthwhile owning and playing the game. With a capable port, these mods will hopefully also see a revival by being usable far more easily.

I think the enemies are totally unattractive and forgettable, and the music is horrible. At least ROTT had great Lee Jackson music which might worth your time to sit through that terrible game.

[t800]

Only passage that I found horribly confusing in Dark Forces was that puzzle with switching walls in 11th level. Had to draw plan to figure it out.
Going offrails again but I am wondering now, if Lucius shouldnt have 2 toggleable saving modes for his port. First vanilla with only saving at quitting game and other classic full manual saving. I mean game has lives system similar to Poweslave, so this would affect overall gameplay feeling.

Going back to Ion Fury, lack of multiple attack modes for enemies is little disappointing compared to other Build games. Let me brainstorm some:
- Charge-jumping attack for centipede while it is still complete?
- Kamikaze charge for flying skulls when they are low on health? (I think I am going to be hated for this here. )
- Shotgunners switching according to situation between grenades and shells? (In other words no diferrent subtypes anymore.)
- Some sort of melee attack for brown cultists?

[MusicallyInspired]

The Watchtower, on 21 June 2020 - 04:22 AM, said:

I think the enemies are totally unattractive and forgettable, and the music is horrible. At least ROTT had great Lee Jackson music which might worth your time to sit through that terrible game.

Okay, I'm now writing off everything you're saying as bait.

t800, on 21 June 2020 - 06:30 AM, said:

Only passage that I found horribly confusing in Dark Forces was that puzzle with switching walls in 11th level. Had to draw plan to figure it out.

Ah yes, Imperial City. The mission to retrieve the data tape. That room that's like a big vault. I figured it out without a map. The further in you go you just go back out and unlock the next door before you go back in. It's very linear actually and not really like a maze but it does require backtracking. There are only 3 layers to the vault with a handful of doors. It's one of those things that COULD be easier with a map, but if you have no problem with direction in a FPS game it's easy enough to work out.

I don't know, I love all the puzzles in Dark Forces. None come to mind right now that I truly hated. I think I had the worst time back in the day with the Arc Hammer and having to go inside the walls where all this machinery is to unlock doors to allow passage further into the ship. That one part where you have to move walls up and down with switches to match up the line holes along the wall had me confused at first.

Sorry I keep aiding in derailling. Maybe this can all be moved to the Dark Forces thread (we have one, don't we? Not related to The Force Engine thread?).

[MrFlibble]

t800, on 21 June 2020 - 06:30 AM, said:

oing offrails again but I am wondering now, if Lucius shouldnt have 2 toggleable saving modes for his port. First vanilla with only saving at quitting game and other classic full manual saving. I mean game has lives system similar to Poweslave, so this would affect overall gameplay feeling.

Lucius already said that the classic system won't be changed but there will be "save states".

As for secondary abilities of the enemies, there doesn't seem to be a reason not to toy with the ideas that are already there in the classic titles. How about a cultist who pleads not to shoot a la ROTT's Blitzguard? Throwing something at Shelly too would work I guess. IIRC some ninjas in SW occasionally throw flash grenades -- BTW, am I the only one a bit disappointed with the limited arsenal of useful items? Or are those being held back for later levels? So far I've only encountered the medkit and the radar as portables, and also the jumping boots (that was quite a cool section by the way) and the quad damage thing.

[necroslut]

MrFlibble, on 21 June 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

BTW, am I the only one a bit disappointed with the limited arsenal of useful items? Or are those being held back for later levels? So far I've only encountered the medkit and the radar as portables, and also the jumping boots (that was quite a cool section by the way) and the quad damage thing.

No, it's not just you. I tought the limited inventory (both with regards to weapons and items) was disappointing and felt like a step backwards from the Build classics. The use-on-pickup items (like the double jump boots) also aren't as interesting as carryable items since you're so limited in where to use them.

t800, on 21 June 2020 - 06:30 AM, said:

Going back to Ion Fury, lack of multiple attack modes for enemies is little disappointing compared to other Build games. Let me brainstorm some: -snip-

I do think alternative moves rather than attacks tend to be more interesting, they tend to change up the combat more and keep the player engaged; while alt. attacks can sometimes make combat more chaotic and random instead, and can break the "logic" which classic-style FPS combat works on.
It's definitely too late to go back and change now though (as it needs to work in tandem with level design and weapon balance etc) but I do think it's something that should be kept in mind for a future game.

[Truck Stop Santa Claus]

I know you might not want to hear it
but I bet the lack of items was to make controller support easier

[necroslut]

Truck Stop Santa Claus, on 23 June 2020 - 03:58 PM, said:

I know you might not want to hear it
but I bet the lack of items was to make controller support easier

The thought had crossed my mind... but I brushed it off thinking, "no, this is a safe zone this is a safe zone, this is for us"...

[Mblackwell]

More an issue of time and resources. At some point you have to cut complex bits and bobs so you can double down on what seems the most fun.

There's a public beta now on Steam btw.

[Truck Stop Santa Claus]

I just set the health and radar on my mouse side buttons, makes things simple

[DisgustedGrunt]

Truck Stop Santa Claus, on 25 June 2020 - 02:17 PM, said:

I just set the health and radar on my mouse side buttons, makes things simple

F and G for me. My mind associates F with healing, probably because i played Dark Souls with k+m multiple times, and F was my "chug estus" key

[Micky C]

I've just tried out the latest beta update. It plays very smooth!

One suggestion: enemies shouldn't be able to move outside the vertical firing range of the player. What I mean is that if the player is, for example, on a platform high above an enemy, the player can only look down to a certain angle, yet the enemies will move right up to the platform such that the player can't see or shoot them. Perhaps the enemies should be given the same vertical firing range as the player, such that they will try to maintain some distance if there's a big height difference?

[MrFlibble]

So I beat USS Framerate on my second try and went on through the train level. To be honest, I was afraid it would be a boring one (I know there's the Blood train level but I never really played Blood) so I was pleasantly surprised it was quite fun.

After that I decided to give the campaign start another go and try to figure out more secrets (somehow I got much better at secret-hunting in Zone 3 compared to the previous two).

So I got here:

Spoiler

I have to say I was surprised myself that I managed to figure this one out, although I kept in mind that design principle by Tom Hall that says if the player can see an item, there must be a way to get it. I made several saved games as a was progressing towards it, because I was not sure if I was actually supposed to be there and do what I was doing (caution, might act as a spoiler):

Spoiler

Oh and by the way, where do I get the updates? Do I have to install GOG Galaxy and update from there?

[cybdmn]

MrFlibble, on 27 June 2020 - 12:00 PM, said:

So I got here:

Spoiler

Is this the origami unicorn from Blade Runner? Great idea.

[MrFlibble]

As I've already said elsewhere, I'm definitely enjoying the first chapter on the second run a lot more than during the first playing. Secrets hunting is tremendous fun, although I cannot but notice that getting to secret areas rather often involves making those odd "round the corner" jumps, which feel somewhat unusual against the backdrop of the other Build games.

On the other hand, destructible walls marked by cracks seem pretty rare compared to Duke3D, I've only run across like two in the first three chapters. Also, even though there are occasional manholes, none of them could be opened Duke style, and I'm starting to suspect that there are none which are not decorations in this game.

I take some of my words about the AI back. I had more opportunities to observe the guys and they definitely try to work smart, e.g. take cover from the player's fire, but that does not save them from getting hopelessly stuck in corners and the like.

I had this little idea concerning the secrets: I noticed that often they contain "uninteresting" items like the portable medikit or not-so-rare ammo types (probably more useful on highest difficulty, because on UV there is no dearth of regular health items in the levels, or ammo for that matter), and after a few good secrets you get the full arsenal sans the minigun long before the more advanced weapons appear in the campaign if you skip secret areas.

So I thought (partially inspired by Civvie's video on Aliens: Colonial Marines of all things), what if some secrets actually contained secret weapons that would be references to other FPS games? These weapons could use their own ammo pool, with ammo equally being found in secrets only, and rare. E.g. a double-barrelled shotgun a la Doom and/or Blood, and a flamethrower from Powerslave would be at least interesting. Rocket launcher/RPG? This was requested as a regular weapon IIRC. I'm not sure about magical items like the Cobra Staff, or straight copies of "gimmick" weapons like the Shrinker.

Alternately (or additionally), secrets could have weapon upgrades for regular weapons, and/or alternate ammo in the style of Duke64. Not sure if this would work well with the existing weapon balance though.

[Truck Stop Santa Claus]

nice to hear
I'm just waiting on Spymap's next map

also I know coop isn't going to happen
but if we could get MP in Queen of the hill mode, that would be hype

[Mblackwell]

Many a secret hunt may be aided by a chair.

[MrFlibble]

Alright. I think I finally managed to get to an area I wasn't supposed to reach:
 capt0037.png (501.55K)
Number of downloads: 53

[Fauch]

I got ion fury with wrath on sale a few weeks ago. only played the 1st level on each so far, to check how it runs on my toaster (surprisingly better than many retro fps). Good first impression, wonder if ion fury could become one of my favorites. I found the secret with the origami, but I don't know where it says how many secrets I missed.

[necroslut]

Fauch, on 20 July 2020 - 11:00 AM, said:

I got ion fury with wrath on sale a few weeks ago. only played the 1st level on each so far, to check how it runs on my toaster (surprisingly better than many retro fps). Good first impression, wonder if ion fury could become one of my favorites.

I don't know why that would be surprising. Most retro-FPshooters, despite looking "old", run on modern engines and aren't built in old-school ways. Ion Fury is.

Quote

I found the secret with the origami, but I don't know where it says how many secrets I missed.

It will tell you as you are about to leave the "level", before passing a point-of-no-return.

[Micky C]

While that’s true, Ion Fury pushes the engine pretty hard, with a high level of detail and other fancy features. An engine that was built from the ground-up today for a similar look would probably fare much better.

Of course, that’s not the same as “dumbing down” the graphics on new engines designed for far more complex graphics, so it’s difficult to compare.

[Fauch]

I heard some reviewers saying the performances were not that good. After project warlock running at 5 to 30 fps, amid evil being a litteral slideshow or ultrakill at 30 fps, I was worried, but it was mostly around 60 fps.

I reached a loading time, but didn't notice something about secrets, though I could still come back, so maybe it wasn't the end of the level. I'll look better next time.

[Phredreeke]

The Build Engine is CPU-heavy, an area that the current gen consoles are lacking in (ranging from 1.05GHz Cortex-A57 cores in the Switch to 2.3GHz Jaguar cores in the Xbox One X)

[Fauch]

it's more my GPU which is useless.

[necroslut]

Micky C, on 21 July 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

While that’s true, Ion Fury pushes the engine pretty hard, with a high level of detail and other fancy features. An engine that was built from the ground-up today for a similar look would probably fare much better.

Of course, that’s not the same as “dumbing down” the graphics on new engines designed for far more complex graphics, so it’s difficult to compare.

Yes, obviously; what I meant was more that a lot (most) retro games (not just FPShooters) are built in very inefficient and roundabout ways, making the computer have to work a lot harder than it should have doing things that end up not showing.
The engines used by other retro shooters generally aren't built from the ground up, but are optimized for very different kinds of games/aesthetics.