[Jimmy]

Maybe radars could be used to help you find secrets? That would make them more useful.

[necroslut]

Ok, beat it now, and it was great.

Spoiler

It was a little disappointing not getting a 1-on-1 faceoff against Heskel after wrecking the dome, I felt.

There are some flaws, most of which others have already pointed out, that prevent it from taking the Build crown IMO, but for a "first outing" its an extremely strong work.
I kinda feel like the first "level" is a little more complex than it maybe should have been – IMO the Preview Campaign felt better in that regard – I can see how that could be a problem for people who haven't already played the preview to pieces like me.
I'll definitely buy whatever next thing you make without hesitation, and encourage everyone else to do so too.

[Zaxx]

Replaying the campaign on maxium fury now and based on my experience I find it a bit weird how the problem with these spider enemies were never caught during testing: this difficulty really shows just how negatively they can impact the game's pacing. You constantly want to move forward to get into some cool firefights but then they drop down and you have to back off, switch to the revolver or throw a bowling bomb, those rarely catch all of them so it becomes this janky cat and mouse game until you can return to fighting the guys you wanted to fight (at which point you'll most likely notice that one or two spiders didn't attack you because they got stuck on a wall...).

It's like these are supposed to be the pinky demons of the game in the sense that they are there to block you off from the ranged enemies, it's just that shooting pinky demons is fun and satisfying while these guys have a werid hitbox and they are jumping around.

Ways to solve this in my opinion:

- They should crowd together more so taking them out is easier and you don't get as many strays.
- They should be used a lot more sparingly and if there is a bigger content update for the game they should be mostly replaced with a new, low level charger enemy type that has a giant hitbox, is satisfying to kill and again: crowd together so the function of the spiders is there without the jank and the tedium.
- If you crowd them together more than there could be a differently colored "leader of the pack" and if you kill that one the rest just explode (= it's more satisfiying and a lot quicker to deal with them).

[Jimmy]

The more I play it I definitely think explosives damage radius aren't as effective as they should be. If you shot an RPG into a group of Octabrains, it kills them all. I think the same should happen to the Spiderfucks.

[Zaxx]

Yeah, I guess that would work too though on the other hand in Duke you have to be very careful with explosives because you can kill yourself easily with a badly placed rocket. Compared to that IF's grenade launcher feels better to me because if you score a direct hit you can still do a lot of damage without offing yourself.

And I dunno, the bowling bomb's alt fire seems very close to Duke's RPG radius and compared to where it explodes it still won't be able to take out a larger group of spiders. The cluster bomb's alt fire may be able to do the job though in most situations, it's just that you don't want to throw those because they are really good and you don't have much of them.

[Jim]

Lazy Dog, on 23 August 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

Same level, when you look outside at certain angles, the windows/ the skybox do this:



Only happens in OpenGL.

EDIT: just tried to replicate it, and i can't. wtf

Anybody got a bug where instead of the skybox being corrupted, instead some frames of the flying drone enemy is corrupted instead? It only happens in opengl and it is hard to replicate. I suspect that these two bugs have the same source. the corruption looks exactly the same.

[Matthew]

On Corporate Chaos, does anyone experience odd slowdowns? I don't know why this occurs, but the part of the map where you get two grenade launcher guys in the elevators near the vent where you can get the one extra armor shard, anytime i look at the elevators my game slowsdown to almost like a picture show in the 1800s. It's even worse after the Revenant boss. My game becomes unresponsive if I wait in the level too long. I have to rush to the end or the game stops working. It doesn't crash. You can everything taking place as the frames drop, but you can't do anything. You can't even bring up the menu. So weird. Never had a game act up on me like this before.

[NNC]

I still haven't finished the game yet. Up until zone 6, I have to say that zone 1 was the weakest episode (yeah, Cultural Divide was the icing on the cake). I think the entire zone suffers from "usermapism" a bit, read: too many details, too many colours and too large space at the same time, it's very disorienting, and overall tiring experience (not to mention the problem with the flyers/spiders in these levels). Davox got a lot better in zone 2 with GDF base, it has some amazing parts and some nice gimmicks as well, like the shooting gallery, and the demo area with the plaza looked excellent, and much less problematic than zone 1.

Zone 3 (oasiz) is a bit confusing at times, and didn't always enjoy the Duke Hard/Going Down style experience, but I love the stylish design overall, and it had the most amazin boss level so far. Zone 4 was my favourite, I'm a total sucker for Daedolon's mapping style, it's just elegant, and despite using sewers and tunnels, I never got lost. Zone 5 was a much needed fresh air, loved the nature and less neon style of the world as well, so far I'm enjoying it a lot.

I think enemy placement should have been a bit smarter, ie. I would have followed the Allen Blum or Ian Boffin school, which means enemies are not randomly placed, but every area has it set of its own enemies, and they don't always need the entire gang to show up. Spiders are too frequent, and flyers are very erratic and annoying. The thing that speaks "german" (or feels like it speaks german) and throw you deadly grenades are easily my least favourite enemy in the Build Engine.

[SonicB00M]

So there was this article published a few hours ago... Is it true that Ion Fury sales are 'a mess'? Breaks by heart...

[Aristotle Gumball]

From the article: “If we had actually done everything their PR wanted us to do we’d be double plus fucked compared to where we are now.”

I really feel for you, guys. I've almost finished the game and while I didn't play on a high difficulty (I never do on a first playthrough), I appreciate that it wasn't "design by committee" and contains various quirks (makes it feel all 'home made' and stuff, like in the old days). TBH I can appreciate even outright fuckery now and then. The spiderbots are basically the spiders/scorpions from Powerslave and since that's one of my favorite games, they didn't bother me here either. Brilliant work and especially for a studio that's so spread out. First retro title that really captures the 90s IMO.

[Fox]

Matthew, on 26 August 2019 - 02:58 AM, said:

On Corporate Chaos, does anyone experience odd slowdowns? I don't know why this occurs, but the part of the map where you get two grenade launcher guys in the elevators near the vent where you can get the one extra armor shard, anytime i look at the elevators my game slowsdown to almost like a picture show in the 1800s. It's even worse after the Revenant boss. My game becomes unresponsive if I wait in the level too long. I have to rush to the end or the game stops working. It doesn't crash. You can everything taking place as the frames drop, but you can't do anything. You can't even bring up the menu. So weird. Never had a game act up on me like this before.

Yeah, I have heard of slowdowns in the office building. I'm not sure why it happens. One possibility is due to some unknown map corruption.

[t800]

Finally finished whole game. What a ride. Both gameplay experience and emotional wise (but lets put politics aside, not to sour things needlessly).

Spoiler

Where to start? So I said previously I played on Mac, so I used fury.grp, fury.grpinfo and fury.def files provided from my GoG copy of game with compiled synthesis build for Mac from Dukeworld dated August 17. I was warned previously by oasiz that I could experience crash caused by explosions. But now I can safely guarentee you, whole game is beatable without any crash, even final hectic battle.
But my previous criticism stands - you have to spam Enter to get into new game to acces main menu, because after launching game, you just get black screen with only sounds from intro splash screens. Minor inconvience but I got used to it eventually.

It was my first play so I used 2nd (normal) difficulty (and disabled autoaim) as I am used to for new games. Difficulty wise game seemed balanced nicely, didnt have any problems with lacking ammo as some players complained. (I am noticing that lot of players dont realize this game features headshot system. Propably confused by its oldschool look. )
Weapons balance is OK but I have few nitpicks. Crossbow really could use some zoomable scope for more accurate sniping (and fix those shots sometimes missing mark). And bombs would be much better with bigger radius of explosion. Not only they are kind of signature weapon right next to revolver for Shelly so they deserve it, but they would also make dealing with skullspiders more comfortable and would also excuse their lower maximum ammo count (compared to shotgun grenade shells).
My favourite enemies in this game are skullmask grenadaries, those hovering rocket skeleton-torsos, hyper aggresive leaping mutants and blue-skull "flesh" skeletons. Each of them made me repriotize situation and experiment more with weapons. Least favourite would be 3rd boss-turned ordinary enemy, tracked "brothers". (Spoiler for those who still not finished 4th episode.)

Spoiler

As boss enemy they kinda worked first, thanks to that cramped elevator area. But later they got laughable easy to dispose, just nuisance to kill with their slow cumbersome movement and easy to dodge attacks. Eating maybe 3 grenade shells and then finished. Even their later boss encounter in last episode was lackluster thanks to that bigger combat arena.

In next spoiler follows overview of levels in game.

Spoiler

First 3 episodes are truly strongest parts of game. They better convey theme of cyberpunk and (especially first 2) are more grandiose than rest of game. I am reading complaints about sniping enemies. While on 2nd diificulty this was bearable, maybe there could be system to limit their maximum range opening fire unless they get provoked first by player hittng them.
I also found Hospital and Heskels House of Horrors (There is glitch. After you finish it, you can return to it and all enemies get reset.) stick out very nicely. Wouldnt mind more maps in rural/small town/nature style to offset prevailing style of urban/underground/techno-labs.
Too bad so few players will get to experience secret level, thanks to cryptic "piano riddle". Even I have to admit, after finishing game, I returned to previous save and used knowledge from GameFAQ to solve it. Short and sweet and later little hectic level. It is just odd, that it spoils in advance appearance of 3rd boss as ordinary enemy.
Regarding last battle. I will be honest - lowest point of whole game. Heskel definitely deserved his own boss enemy character. Instead we just got area with tiring mobs of enemies and repetetive repeating of same action. Sorry, but really not big fan of horde shooting in enclosed arena and even less when this subtitutes for "boss encounter".

All in all, very nice return to 90s style of FPS games. Something rare to behold, game that not only looks "retro" but also understands their soul.
Graphically wise, would not mind putting in TOP 3 list next to Blood and Powerslave and gameplay wise it would be next to Duke3D and Shadow Warrior (which I feel this game has closest bonds).
I am just wondering now, where is Person of Color not raving about getting "new Sin game in Build engine"?

[Mblackwell]

Charge your bombs if you want them to have a bigger radius. The higher the velocity the bigger the blast. The alt fire also has an even bigger radius still.

[Danukem]

Mblackwell, on 27 August 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Charge your bombs if you want them to have a bigger radius. The higher the velocity the bigger the blast. The alt fire also has an even bigger radius still.

One little nitpick about the altfire. It's difficult to place a bomb in a specific place because they roll so far after bouncing. I've wasted some trying to blow up cracks because they bounce right off of the target wall and then go another 30 feet or so. EDIT: It would be cool if pressing regular fire while the altfire bomb is out caused the bomb to detonate.

[Zaxx]

Explosives work in a way that if you hit a wall crack with them they'll explode. This works with the bowling bombs primary fire but you can't really aim the height of your throwns beyond a certain point so use the grenade launcher instead.

[Mblackwell]

Zaxx, on 27 August 2019 - 03:50 PM, said:

Explosives work in a way that if you hit a wall crack with them they'll explode. This works with the bowling bombs primary fire but you can't really aim the height of your throwns beyond a certain point so use the grenade launcher instead.

The alt fire also has a higher arc. And charging sends them flying higher too.

If you want the alt fire to explode at a specific spot just make sure and prime it well. Zaxx is right about cracks forcing detonation. Vents will (or should) as well.

[Danukem]

Mblackwell, on 27 August 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:

Zaxx is right about cracks forcing detonation. Vents will (or should) as well.

I guess I wasn't getting it close enough to the crack then.

[Zaxx]

It's certainly not the best option I guess, I mean you do have to hit the crack precisely and aiming the height is tricky. Basically I use the primary for this secret exclusively:

The benefit is that if you miss the crack you can just pick the bomb up and try again so you don't lose ammo. The grenade launcher is a lot easier to aim so that works a lot better + I found that the bowling bomb's alt fire with crouching is great too.

[Zaxx]

Btw. can you get something for completing the shooting range? I'm missing one secret on the map and I have no idea where could it be.

[DisgustedGrunt]

Just finished it!

with 97% kills and 53% secrets (i know, i suck), don't know exact time (not installing Gog galaxy) but i think took me around 13 - 14 hours.

10/10, Game of the Year.

Great level design, as complex as it was i never got lost, and i barely use the automap. Loved the music. Only weapon i never used much was the Clusterpuck, kinda forgot about it until i was out of everything else explosive.

only thing i didn't liked was that using alt-fire to switch between the disperser shotgun/ grenade launcher didn't counted as reloading it.

Now, if you excuse me, those secrets aren't gonna find themselves.

[Zaxx]

Lazy Dog, on 27 August 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

Now, if you excuse me, those secrets aren't gonna find themselves.

You won't find them either. On my first playthrough I managed to find 73% and a lot of those was random where the usual rules don't apply. On my second playthrough now I put a bigger emphasis on secret hunting and usually the ones that I've missed are:

- Overly complicated bullshit puzzles that you'll never solve by yourself because a clue is missing or simply because it asks too much from you.
- Stuff where the rules don't apply. You're missing one secret on a map so you methodically re-explore the level and look for the odd texture? Nah, fuck you, it's going to be behind a regular wall texture, you won't even get a shadow.

And to make matters worse the most detailed and most rewarding secrets are the zone mega-secrets = the ones you'll never find (okay, some of them are okay). It's not like Duke 3D where most people found the cool shit like the "doomed space marine" because those were easy, here there was a lot of care put into the player not finding the good shit.

Also if you're expecting those classic Build secrets you're kinda in for a letdown: there are no stuff like button combination puzzles, obscure buttons to shoot (there is one where you have to shoot a "no smoking" sign for whatever reason though: it's not signposted, it looks the same as all the other signs like that, so fun), crazy rooms that give you everything and more like in Blood etc. There is some cool stuff in there like the ones connected to using the electifier or the darts but even that's underutilized. There is a lot "pixel hunting" though (you know, that stuff you hate from point n click adventure games).

[Zaxx]

How is this supposed to work btw?

In both of my playthroughs it took around 20 tries to get in there and I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing wrong.

[t800]

I was wondering about one unused enemy type. In ending screen after finishing Preview campaign (Crisis in Columbia episode under Bonus missions in full game), specifically in lower right picture frame you can get look at him. So was he scraped definitely because he looked too "Duke3d-ish"? Can we maybe look forward to seeing him later in some sort of expansion pack?


Only other mention of him in game I could find was this small picture from locker.



EDIT: Sorry for pushing your post to previous page, Zaxx.

[MusicallyInspired]

Actually, I never saw either of those enemies in the game anywhere (the red tank thing nor the big ugly green-shirted dude).

[t800]

Well, I presumed it was beta version of 3rd boss.

[MetHy]

Zaxx, on 27 August 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

You won't find them either. On my first playthrough I managed to find 73% and a lot of those was random where the usual rules don't apply. On my second playthrough now I put a bigger emphasis on secret hunting and usually the ones that I've missed are:

- Overly complicated bullshit puzzles that you'll never solve by yourself because a clue is missing or simply because it asks too much from you.
- Stuff where the rules don't apply. You're missing one secret on a map so you methodically re-explore the level and look for the odd texture? Nah, fuck you, it's going to be behind a regular wall texture, you won't even get a shadow.

And to make matters worse the most detailed and most rewarding secrets are the zone mega-secrets = the ones you'll never find (okay, some of them are okay). It's not like Duke 3D where most people found the cool shit like the "doomed space marine" because those were easy, here there was a lot of care put into the player not finding the good shit.

Also if you're expecting those classic Build secrets you're kinda in for a letdown: there are no stuff like button combination puzzles, obscure buttons to shoot (there is one where you have to shoot a "no smoking" sign for whatever reason though: it's not signposted, it looks the same as all the other signs like that, so fun), crazy rooms that give you everything and more like in Blood etc. There is some cool stuff in there like the ones connected to using the electifier or the darts but even that's underutilized. There is a lot "pixel hunting" though (you know, that stuff you hate from point n click adventure games).

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

Now - during the development of IF for study purposes, I actually went and look at FAQs for the secret places I wasn't aware of in Build games. Before that, I never knew all the secrets in DN3D, during more than 20 years I kept replaying the game and once in a while I'd find a new secret place I didn't know about, which felt extremely cool.
Which brings me to this point: all the 'obscure' type of secret places IF can have, are type of secrets you would find in Build games and other old FPS and old games in general. Going through a maskwall with little to no indication it is actually not a "real" wall, interacting with a piece of the scenery which otherwise fits in, etc, are secret place types you can find in DN3D.
The point isn't that we haven't been creative about it, there are variations on those types, and also secret types that exploit mechanics that you'd find in IF and not in other Build games, as well as secret types which are by design more modern.

The point is, I do not feel like we've been particuarly big assholes here. IF devs, consciously or not, have been inspired both by Build games and other games of that era, but also by the 20+ years after that.
At the same time, I feel like secret places and secret hunting has largely shifted in this recent era; most modern games secrets, including retro games, often consist in simple things such as "look up", "look under a bridge", or sometimes even just "look behind this corner, which, despite not being lit as well as the intended path, is just a regular corner".

Now, mix this concept of modern secrets being relatively easy to find, with what I said above regarding players being part of the "achievement generation" who can feel they are being cheated out of game content, and the result is players feeling pissed about "secrets" being hidden.

I'm not trying to shift blame blame here, or to say whether that feeling is justified or not, I do not know the answer. The goal of the post is to try and have a bit of perspective to examine and understand the situation better.

Finally, there are several ways in which IF encourages secret hunting, more so than other old games (which didn't need to, since it used to be a norm). Admittedly, that may have the un-intended effect to emphasize this "pissed feeling"; as even the means given to the player to help find secret places, like the radar, which for instance would help in at least one of the secret you mentionned, seem overall under-utilized by players. Again, probably because most players aren't used to having to actively look for secret places in various ways anymore.

So, with all of that taken into account, I have modified 2-3 secrets I was responsable of by adding subtle clues. It should be in a future patch.
However, there is still a middle ground to maintain, we have also heard tons of players who voiced how satisfied they were with secrets hunting, as it is. We wouldn't want to abandon a part of our roots and indentity either. Hence, the change is only "subtle clues", for a few secrets.

t800, on 28 August 2019 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well, I presumed it was beta version of 3rd boss.

It is yeah, with a different palette and with no overpaint yet.

[Phredreeke]

I believe the red tank is in the game, just with an orange palette instead.

[MusicallyInspired]

MetHy, on 28 August 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

The same thing happened to the point system and alternate paths from early adventure games. People rag on King's Quest 1 for the insane Rumplestiltskin puzzle being way too hard to ever figure out but they're missing the point. In the game, there's a gnome who helps you but you have to guess his name. Rumplestiltskin is not correct, but there's a note found elsewhere in the game that simply reads "sometimes it is wise to think backwards." If you manage to put two and two together you might think that spelling Rumplestiltskin backwards would be the correct solution. It is not. The actual solution is to reverse the entire alphabet and remap the letters in Rumplestiltskin to the backwards alphabet. If you get it right the gnome gives you magic beans which when you plant sprouts a giant beanstalk that takes you to cloudland and to one of the 3 treasures in the game you're supposed to find. But if you get it wrong he simply leaves a key which unlocks a door to a cavern with a staircase that takes you to cloudland instead. Same outcome, just less points. And you still get to finish the game.

People saying this puzzle is unfair don't get the point (no pun intended). King's Quest came out in 1984. It may have been a way to artificially extend the length of such a small game but that's not always a bad thing. Games just weren't that long and really couldn't be back then unless you came up with interesting new ways to get people to keep playing. The point system was created to get you to do just that until you found a way to beat the game with full points. It's not something you're owed. It's a mark of accomplishment. And it's the same thing with "retro shooter" secret areas. Ion Fury got it exactly right IMO. It's certainly better than the ridiculous achievements nowadays like the "finish level 3 with exactly 3 ammo rounds left in your clip without jumping and getting hit only once" nonsense.

[Zaxx]

MetHy, on 28 August 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

I think it's more complicated than that. I'm not a completionist, I don't think I've ever found all the super secrets in Blood for example nor all the secrets in Duke and I'm not really interested in that aspect of secret hunting. What I'm interested in is finding enough secrets so that I have some extra resources to spare + finding the more elaborate easter eggs. That's why I think that this zone mega secret thing was kind of a mistake: because you've put the most effort into secrets 90% of the playerbase will never find. Like the "room from that famous horror game" is amazing, if you know that game then it's a fucking love letter, every single piece of information hidden there is a gem. It's not about gating off content or anything like that, I'm just on the opinion that stuff like that can add some extra value to the overall experience so you should show them off.

The other thing is that IF is pretty dense visually, it's a lot more detailed than other Build games so naturally that will make secrets harder to find: you'll get a lot more things on the map that will look suspicious so if a secret is hidden behind a regular wall for example you kinda feel cheated because there were just so many "better" options.

Also: the "pixel hunting" aspect is a new thing in IF and I just don't think that it suits the gameplay. For example there is a map where you can open the back of a truck by shooting a teeny-tiny red button in a teeny-tiny crack in the wall: it's not only near impossible to find because by default you're autorunning it also doesn't make sense. What is a red button doing in a middle of a crack in the wall and why does it open the back of a truck? Of course thinking that stuff like that is bad is coming from my opinion that secrets are the most fun when they are "logic puzzles" so to speak. The thing is I love adventure games so I always thought that secret hunting is an aspect that could be improved in FPS games and that's what immersive sim-like games did. In System Shock 2 or Doom 3 logs will lead you to secret places in a lot of instances, like you find a log that says "dude, the shit just hit the fan here so I've hidden some supplies in our hiding spot that looks like this" and then you find that place by the clues you were given.

Now in a traditional FPS things don't work like this... but they could be, especially in Build where the more realistic approach to level design seems to be a guiding principle. I have to admit I never liked how Duke 3D did its secrets because they were just a bit too random sometimes but at least the "good shit" was always signposted well. On the other hand Doom was always amazing in this regard because you can basically find everything by learning the rules of how secrets are placed and that's where the "logic puzzle" thing comes into play. You missed something? Eh, there may be a computer map somewhere on the more complex maps and even the plain old automap is very helpful because it can give you clues on how to find that missing room. Now Doom is the most old school FPS of them all yet interestingly that game always wanted you to find those secrets.

Is secret hunting in IF fun? Of course it is fun because there are a lot of clever and nice things in there, it's just that going for that 100% run is not ideal and the easter egg-filled rooms that would break up the "monotony" of finding radars-armor-medkits-ammo are things most people won't see. So you know, I don't think there would be anything wrong with giving the player more information when it comes to how to access the "good shit" (and yeah, I do think that if you get where the solution to a secret starts you should be able to solve it instead of being "fuck this, I'm outta here" after trying for 20 minutes ).

But again this is just a very minor nitpick of mine because when it comes to the resource gathering aspect the game has so many secrets that the problem of some them being batshit crazy gets automatically solved. And when it comes to the mega secrets I'll just look up the missing stuff on Youtube anyway because I like seeing that stuff.

[Zaxx]

MusicallyInspired, on 28 August 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

People saying this puzzle is unfair don't get the point (no pun intended). King's Quest came out in 1984. It may have been a way to artificially extend the length of such a small game but that's not always a bad thing. Games just weren't that long and really couldn't be back then unless you came up with interesting new ways to get people to keep playing. The point system was created to get you to do just that until you found a way to beat the game with full points. It's not something you're owed. It's a mark of accomplishment. And it's the same thing with "retro shooter" secret areas.

Here's the thing though: not only the times changed but so did the players. An FPS like IF is aimed at people who played Duke 3D when they were kids. That was almost 25 years ago, they grew up, they have a lot less time to play videogames so just let 'em see the car from Carmageddon, okay?