[NightFright]

Inspired by Lunick's suggestion over at another thread, I am proposing a new direction in order to compile a major new HRP release after all. We have been talking often about this in several threads on many occasions, but it's time to make it official.

The general idea is a complete overhaul of the pack regarding its core components, i.e. textures and sprite replacements. To put it short: Open trashcan, put highres textures and models we have inside (all of them, no regrets), close trashcan, forget about it and go ahead with adding more faithful and (far) more consistent artwork. Some of the work is actually already done.

HRP 5.0 should/could contain
1) AI upscales of all the original textures (with optional Vacation/DC/NWinter packs)
2) Voxel pack (instead of models)
3) Maphacks (we basically have them already, including necessary adjustments for voxels)
4) SC-55 Music Pack (as before)

The intention is to keep these four packs separate, i.e. it wouldn't be a single file, but any release would bundle those together. Advantage would be that updates for each of the components is possible at any time. Since basically only the voxel pack (with maphacks included) might receive updates after release, this would keep download size for general HRP updates fairly small.

Pros:
1) Consistent art direction and general completeness of textures/"models" (voxels in this case)
2) Music pack, voxels, maphacks and upscaled enemies are basically done already (upscales in Alien Armageddon, for example - unless it's supposed to go beyond 2x resolution)
3) Especially the voxel pack has really high quality and can be considered being faithful to the original sprite art
4) Textures stop being artistic approximations/interpretations to imitate the originals as close as possible - you would HAVE the originals, but in higher resolution
5) We get rid of the super-ugly babe models (just to name the worst of all first). Good riddance!

Cons:
1) Enemies will probably not be 3D any more, but rather upscaled sprites (but TBH that's rather an advantage over the current models since most of those are not really fitting)
2) Polymer isn't supporting voxels yet, i.e. this new HRP would only be for software and Polymost (unless coder team changes it)
3) Visual gimmicks like texture normals/spec maps etc would have to be remade from scratch (if we still want them) since we'd throw everything into the trash that has been made so far

Uncertainties:
1) We would need a few people again who would be willing to actively participate in this endeavor, especially regarding content creation.
2) Are 2x upscales for sprites as we have them already sufficient?
3) What should be the upscale factor for textures? (Suggestion: 4x or 8x)
4) Are there any licensing issues when upscaling original art? (I guess not since it's also done for other games like Doom, Heretic or Hexen)
5) Widescreen (menu/HUD) graphics based on original art. Do we want them? Can anybody make them? Will they work reliably in EDuke32?
6) What to do with the old HRP after this actually happened? (Suggestion: Keep it as something like "HRP Legacy Edition")

Urgent to-dos that I consider necessary/recommendable for this to happen would be:
- Someone has to create AI upscales of ALL Duke3D textures and sprites (sprites we should already have, actually). Addons may follow later
- "Complete" the voxel pack (mainly add Vacation assets, other necessary stuff like pickups is done by now)
- Add EDuke32 code support for automatic vacation.grp detection to choose the correct voxels
- Polymer support for voxels (not a must IMHO, but it'd be a plus)

What say you?

[darkprince227]

Having just tested the Voxel pack myself, this sounds like a hell of an idea.

[MrFlibble]

NightFright, on 18 September 2020 - 06:49 AM, said:

1) AI upscales of all the original textures (with optional Vacation/DC/NWinter packs)

BTW, what was the reasoning behind the current (?) rule to not include upscales in HRP, mentioned somewhere before?

[NightFright]

MrFlibble, on 18 September 2020 - 07:11 AM, said:

BTW, what was the reasoning behind the current (?) rule to not include upscales in HRP, mentioned somewhere before?

As far as I can tell this was the general opinion before high-quality neural upscales were available and everybody was creating cheap-a$$ upscales with underwhelming algorithms like HQ3X and things like that. Maybe there were also legal obstacles/concerns, but I wouldn't know which TBH.

[Mark]

My recollection is it was a legal thing AND they looked cheesy at the time. I suggest using something other than HRP for the name since it will be confusing given the many years of previous usage of the name on the internet. VUP= Voxel Upscale Pack or VUMP=Voxel Upscale Music Pack

My opinion is forget Polymer and norm/spec map textures since the point of this new project would be staying closer to original. Plus I don't think its realistic to expect that much extra effort from the community. Its already a big undertaking to do what you want so far.

[Hendricks266]

I agree with this plan for a project that replaces the HRP in the public consciousness. However, I feel we should come up with a new name for this effort distinct from HRP.

One thing I'll throw in is that we should add palette emulation support for hightile so that upscales can inherit accurate pal and shade automatically. I've looked at doing this but I would have to modify parts of the renderer code that I'm not familiar with.

[NightFright]

No objections about ditching the HRP name for this. Doing so would also reflect the fact that this is a new approach rather than a refined HRP. We can still salvage some parts from it (music and maphacks), though.

As Phreedeeke reminded me via PM, it's ofc not just a matter of running all textures and sprites through a filter script and you get top-quality stuff right away. In many cases manual adjustments will be needed. Considering the amount of tiles we are talking about, it's hardly something I can imagine to be done by just one person.

I am aware that we can't expect as much creative output from the comm as we used to have 10-15 years ago, but hopefully that also won't be needed now. We already have a lot of excellent material to work with. The biggest effort will be to get the upscales done in proper quality and making sure they work as intended in EDuke32.

[Hendricks266]

Hendricks266, on 18 September 2020 - 08:25 AM, said:

One thing I'll throw in is that we should add palette emulation support for hightile so that upscales can inherit accurate pal and shade automatically. I've looked at doing this but I would have to modify parts of the renderer code that I'm not familiar with.

I forgot that Nuke.YKT did most of this work already and we just need to get it ready to merge in. https://voidpoint.io...ests/14/commits

[Phredreeke]

NightFright, on 18 September 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

The biggest effort will be to get the upscales done in proper quality and making sure they work as intended in EDuke32.

Assuming we're only doing upscales and not adding in-between frames for smoother weapon animations it should work in Rednukem as well.

Hendricks266, on 18 September 2020 - 09:13 AM, said:

I forgot that Nuke.YKT did most of this work already and we just need to get it ready to merge in. https://voidpoint.io...ests/14/commits

This branch has actually been very helpful for development of the upscale packs.

[NightFright]

Considering the voxel pack already supports DukeGDX, we might even get that one supported with upscales. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Phredreeke]

I'd like to hear what other contributors think of NightFright's suggestion.

BTW I would also include Fox's skyboxes and the higher quality sounds from Total Meltdown.

[jkas789]

This looks really interesting I'm actually playing with Duke nukem whit something very similar I assume to what you are proposing (Duke Nukem upscaled project, Voxel Project, pSX sounds, Roland SC-55 Music Pack) and i can attest it fits better than the the current HRP. What would someone need to learn to contribute to this? What skills would they need to learn. I would love to help but Duke Nukem modding is still something like black magic to me.

[The Battlelord]

More than a new HRP release this sound more like a new project.
A combo of the most recent graphics enhancements that will make Duke3D at its best, the way that was originally meant.

Imagine: Upscale+Smooth Duke+Voxels (possibly upscaled as well)+a file CON that makes the screen shakes (when the player shots or there are nearby explosions, this will add more realism)+HQ musics+HQ sounds (even strongers, ie: shotgun will not do" bang" it will do "BANG", explosions will not do "boom" they will do "BOOM")... drooling, Duke3D the way was meant .


These are also just suggestions, it will surely be a lot of work, especially the upscale part (i guess)

jkas789, on 21 September 2020 - 09:04 AM, said:

I would love to help but Duke Nukem modding is still something like black magic to me.

This was already stated, they are Dark Wizards

[Tea Monster]

This sounds like a different project and I would give it a different name to avoid confusion with the HRP. Include AI upscales of the critters, end screens, textures and even cutscenes. Fold in the voxels and add Fox's skyboxes. It's a brilliant idea for a project.

You could even have it compatible with the Old MP branch, for added fragging goodness!

Upscales were originally banned for (IIRC) quality reasons as just up-scalling in PS or GIMP is a mess. There may have been a legal angle of basically re-issuing the original sprites, but I don't see how that would be a problem. The T&C allows you to modify and release the original maps, so I don't see there being any legal issue with textures, especially as they are not straight up-scales of the originals, but AI created interpretations of what they would look like. IANAL.

Current AI upscales look amazing and having a texture/voxel pack would be brilliant. Having one collection of all the goodness in one place is amazing. Take my upvote!

Possible names: Duke Nukem Enhancement Pack (DNEP), Enhanced Resolution Pack (ERP), Duke Nukem Amplifed (DNA). Duke Nukem 3D Squared (DN3D²). Duke Nukem AI Edition (DNAIE).

Oh, oh, oh! I just had a great idea! You could call it Duke Nukem - Reloaded! !!!!!

As to the 'old' HRP, I personally think that the whole thing should be retired until a new renderer is decided upon. You could siphon off the newer Polymer stuff off into a separate add-on pack if you wanted to, but I don't see much point with the limited amount of stuff in it. If there is a new renderer introduced to EDuke, we can see if there is any demand to make a model pack for it.

[Phredreeke]

I like Enhanced Resolution Pack but better google first to see if the abbreviation is used for anything else...

[Fox]

Phredreeke, on 21 September 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

I like Enhanced Resolution Pack but better google first to see if the abbreviation is used for anything else...

I was expecting ERP to be some type of porn

[Tea Monster]

Fox, on 21 September 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

I was expecting ERP to be some type of porn

Rule 34

[Tea Monster]

Either NightFright or Hendrix, I don't know if you want to create a new thread or a section (possibly Discord?) for the new project.

[Hendricks266]

I think that would be premature right now.

[Phredreeke]

Things to consider

- while using indexed hightiles, should fallback palette swaps be included for other ports?
- is 2x scale sufficient? (my experience is going higher tend to make it look either smudgy or heavily artifacty)
- who is willing to touch up tiles where the upscale "looks off"?
- how faithful do we intend for it to be?

I would also like Dzierzan's smoothed weapons to be worked in, I'm not able to code those though.

[NightFright]

I would say 2x is OK for sprites while textures might definitely need at least 4x original res. Regarding faithfulness: At least the upscales shouldn't be touched at all besides what's necessary to make them look as close to the original as possible after the upscaling process. With voxels, I think Borion and the others did a pretty good job there - since sprites only show one side, voxels will always have some form of interpretation involved.

[jkas789]

If I may give my humble opinion as an end user, I think the voxels currently look very faithful to the original sprites and they don't look out of place in the game. I think given the nature of voxel creation (or at least for what I have seen on youtube videos, as i'm not a voxel artist myself. hopefully someday!) it is impossible to avoid some creative liberties while making them, however both Borion, mxrtxn and the others have made an excellent job to keep the "vanilla" feel.

Though I may be biased in my opinion (I love voxels!), in regard to Duke 3D as long as the first person sprites and enemy enemy/babe models aren't changed to voxels I think everything will be fine. Personally I think the current monsters voxels that exist in the Voxel project should be handled like they are currently (excluded by default in the def) as they clash way to much aesthetically with the other sprite enemies (even if I think the pig cop tank voxel model is way better gameplay wise than the sprite).

In regards to the upscale of textures I think your current upscale pack looks fine as it is Phredreeke.

[Lightning_Hunter]

Just now saw the latest posts here. I agree with Tea Monster that the HRP should be retired as opposed to trashed, and a new project born instead (with a new name). I know some of the 3d models aren't faithful and are cheesy in some cases, but a lot of work went into all this stuff over the years. I have been following the progress of Duke3d HR content from the start (although not always actively posting). It feels wrong to scrap thousands of maphacks, textures, scripts, hundreds of models, and more. Even if the HRP is trashed, I will still have my own copy on my computer for personal use. Why force people to track down an old version number of the HRP to get all this content? It would be silly to tell someone, "if you want the models, download HRP version 5.4.727 instead of version 6". I say keep the HRP as it is, and if you ever feel like it down the road, do some very minor updates if anyone releases better, more faithful 3d models - and focus on your other project with a different name in the meantime.

Maybe someone else will even decide to take over the HRP one of these days if new 3d models ever come out? None of us knows what the future will hold!

[darkprince227]

Indeed, it would be a shame to just get rid of the HRP after so much has gone into it, as someone who still uses it to this day, especially now that he has a computer that can handle it.

Still, maybe some things could be salvaged from them. If better resolution textures are being made, maybe use the HRP textures as something to build from, especially in the addons cos the brighter colours used in the
Caribbean HRP are just gorgeous.

[Phredreeke]

In DMs with NightFright

Phredreeke, on 25 September 2020 - 03:00 AM, said:

NightFright, on 24 September 2020 - 11:55 PM, said:

(Writing that def file took me a while, but at least it's done and we don't have to do it again.)

I feel like an asshole now cause I could have sent a batch file I made that automates creation of the def file.

To save people time, here's a pair of batch files I use to generate def files for upscale packs. newdefduke is for our current ports, while newdefindexed is for indexed hightiles.

Attached File(s)

•  newdef.zip (666bytes)
  Number of downloads: 177

[Phredreeke]

I thought I'd share some examples

The third shows an issue with palette swaps, I have an idea how to resolve it, but I'd be lying if I said it's not gonna be a bit of a pain in the ass.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 
• 
• 

[Mark]

How does someone use the newdefindexed bat file? Just throw it in a folder of loose textures and run it? Specific names needed for the textures?

[Phredreeke]

Textures need to have the format tileXXXX where XXXX is the tilenum.

The resulting def file then loads the files from the subfolder upscale.

For the other batch file, it will define palswaps for images with the format tileXXXX_YY where YY is the palette.

[Micky C]

Here’s a thought. Since the voxels work in the classic renderer, would it be worth trying to constrain the upscales to 8-bit assets to work in the classic renderer as well? I imagine the two limitations are: 1. Limited colours, 2. Limited resolution. However, it could quickly be determined what the maximum duke tile size is, and whether increasing that by x2 or x4 would exceed the limit.

[Phredreeke]

You say that as if it hasn't already been done