[Mr.Deviance]

Comrade Major, on 18 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Brutal Doom can be customized specifically to disable contentious features such as reloading.

Brutal Doom can't allow you to disable reloading because reloading never existed in the original Doom to begin with...
What are you talking about here?
The reloading animations were done automatically for some weapons and they were just for effect.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Mr.Deviance, on 18 July 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Brutal Doom can't allow you to disable reloading because reloading never existed in the original Doom to begin with...

You cannot seriously be this dense.

One of Brutal Doom's features was having guns with clips that can be reloaded. This feature can be disabled via configuration (specifically a Mutator patch which is available on the ModDB page.) In fact, most of Brutal Doom's features/gimmicks can be disabled via configuration.

[Mr. Tibbs]

DOOM was revealed to counter fears of trouble at id Software; just not ready to show.

Quote

"I try really, really hard for this to be a dev first, dev-lead thing," said Hines, and id Software isn't ready for a worldwide reveal of Doom. "We’re working with them to say, ‘How does this work? What do we want to show?’ And they’re like, ‘Look, we don’t want a stream to go up for a game that isn’t at the point where we would formally show it to the world, and now that thing is getting picked apart, and digested, and gone through frame-by-frame and getting nitpicked to death, when normally we wouldn’t be showing this to anybody at all.’”

If it normally wouldn’t be shown to anybody, why show it at all? Aside from not wanting yet another QuakeCon without Doom, Hines says he wanted to quell doubts about Doom and the id Software team, which “bothered the hell” out of him. At the same time, he didn't want to "deal with the repercussions" of a formal announcement, which would come with too many expectations.

"I really wanted to put something out there that, in a strong way, said, ‘id is working on something that we think is really cool,’" said Hines. "And we wanted ... to show something to [id Software fans] that gives them the confidence that it is still a viable studio that’s doing really cool stuff, that is making a game you want to play, and is treating Doom with the care and respect that you want.

"And now we’re going to go away and go back to making the game, but to be able to counter other people talking about us and we’re sort of just sitting here staying silent, or operating from this negative space of like, ‘Oh, it got rebooted, oh it’s in trouble.’ All of that stuff just bothered the hell out of me."

As for the fans who couldn’t make it to QuakeCon, Hines says “there was no perfect version” for the reveal. Trying to get Doom ready to “bring a bunch of press guys in” would have meant missing QuakeCon again. The private showing was a compromise: id Software earns renewed confidence, QuakeCon attendees aren't disappointed, and Bethesda can go back to being quiet about Doom until it's ready.

[HulkNukem]

"Public reveal unlikely this year"
Oh fuck right off with that shit. Announce a Doom beta for Wolfenstein pre orders. Release a teaser at E3 but then weeks later announce the reveal is only at Quakecon. And then say there probably won't be a reveal at all this year. Stupid.
It could literally be over an entire year before the beta is even available from when it was first announced. Duke Nukem Forever's early access wasn't even that long of a wait

[DustFalcon85]

Mr. Tibbs, on 18 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

DOOM was revealed to counter fears of trouble at id Software; just not ready to show.

[HulkNukem]

John Romero visitted id Software; or perhaps is still there...

https://twitter.com/...245851642875904

Weird that this happens now, and after Carmack is gone.

[MusicallyInspired]

Or it makes total sense.

[OpenMaw]

Some of ya'll need to get control of your weak knees. You're like virgins at your first finger bang session here for fucks sake. This is still clearly a cluster fuck of epic proportions. When you can actually get your hands on a demo and play it? Then you have my permission to cum all over your keyboards.


Judge Mental has spoken.

Comrade Major, on 18 July 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

You cannot seriously be this dense.

One of Brutal Doom's features was having guns with clips that can be reloaded. This feature can be disabled via configuration (specifically a Mutator patch which is available on the ModDB page.) In fact, most of Brutal Doom's features/gimmicks can be disabled via configuration.

^This. Everyone who has a hang up on one of Brutal Doom's features should be made aware that you can turn that shit that bothers you right off. Also, Mr. Deviance's remarks make no goddamn sense. How does it strip away *anything* that makes the original Doom what it is? The level design is unchanged, unless you're using custom levels. The health system is the same, unless you're using some regenerating health mod or something. You still hunt down keycards and kill all the monsters. The weapons have slightly tweaked behavior, but they're still all recognizably the Doom weapons. So... What the fuck are you talking about?

[Duke of Hazzard]

I personally think they'll shoot themselves in the foot if they go the Brutal Doom route. Why should I buy their product for a pseudo-retro experience when there's the retro Doom with the Brutal Doom mod available for me to play, with all the amenities of modern controls?

Not to mention Brutal Doom, as good at it is (I like it a lot), is a mod. It isn't Doom, and isn't what Doom is about. Doom was never that much gory in the first place, which might have been because of system requirements, but the most you could do was gib zombies/Imps with rockets, plasma or berserk punch.

This game will still be vastly better than your ordinary military shooter, but I don't think we should be looking to the past when creating a game for the current market. There's a reason you don't see colored keycards and non-reloadable weapons in shooters anymore. These concepts became obsolete as early as when Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was released, and that was in 1997.

Heck, I call Brutal Doom the mod "Doom meets Mortal Kombat", because fatalities and excessive blood are MK's thing, not Doom's.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, come on. Let's at least be fair and give them a little bit of the benefit of a doubt. I don't think they're going to just copy Brutal Doom, slap a AAA sticker on it, and rip everybody off. I've got to believe that they'll at least see that they need to come up with some originality to it. I'm thinking they'll actually get really creative on this one. We haven't seen it yet and they're obviously a long way to completion.

On the flip side, I can't be excited about this until I play it, or at least see it. So I'm remaining neutral. Heh, how awesome would it be if they released the game in episodes and released the first one free?

[Bloodshot]

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not to mention Brutal Doom, as good at it is (I like it a lot), is a mod. It isn't Doom, and isn't what Doom is about. Doom was never that much gory in the first place, which might have been because of system requirements, but the most you could do was gib zombies/Imps with rockets, plasma or berserk punch.

Nope.

Brutal Doom has literally made people forget what normal doom is like





This is gore. This is serious gore, right down to the baron's intestines falling out.

The chaingunner's scalp flies off when he dies.

Quake games are gory but due to technical limitations/design choice that gore has always been cartoony abstract chunks that are hard to tell what they are unless you really stop and look. At most you'll see a heart, a ribcage, some bones, etc. in quake 3 maybe but it's still mostly bloody and very cartoony.



This is not tame compared to other games. Maybe compared to brutal doom - but if you remade these exact death animations in a modern game this shit would be considered extremely gory.

This is way more detailed than a lot of games are even willing to go for, and saying doom isn't that gory is like saying george broussard isn't that fat. Maybe its not the same as brutal doom, and maybe the deaths are a lot faster - but that is still incredibly gory.

[----]

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

There's a reason you don't see colored keycards and non-reloadable weapons in shooters anymore. These concepts became obsolete as early as when Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was released, and that was in 1997.

Non-reloadable weapons weren't made obsolete. It depends on the game and the gameplay if they are or should be reloadable.

Jeez ...

I really would like to have that kind of limited mindset and thinking for one day. Just to see how it feels.

[Mr.Deviance]

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

I personally think they'll shoot themselves in the foot if they go the Brutal Doom route. Why should I buy their product for a pseudo-retro experience when there's the retro Doom with the Brutal Doom mod available for me to play, with all the amenities of modern controls?

Nobody is asking you to buy it, I think they can live very well without your money because I will buy 2 copies when it comes out if it's as good as it's said to be.
I think you're shooting yourself in the foot when you assume that everybody hates it for this reason when in fact I think it's quite the contrary.

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not to mention Brutal Doom, as good at it is (I like it a lot), is a mod. It isn't Doom, and isn't what Doom is about. Doom was never that much gory in the first place, which might have been because of system requirements, but the most you could do was gib zombies/Imps with rockets, plasma or berserk punch.

Doom tried to be as gory as their minds could think of back then.
I assure you that if you showed brutal doom to id back when they were working at it, the only reason why they wouldn't make the original doom as brutal doom is today, is because maybe they would have feared the game might have been banned for excessive violence.
And while I do believe brutal doom tends to become excessively sadistic to the point where it's childish, I am absolutely sure you won't see the marine flipping off the dead demons while screaming fuck yourself in this remake of Doom that id is making.

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

This game will still be vastly better than your ordinary military shooter, but I don't think we should be looking to the past when creating a game for the current market. There's a reason you don't see colored keycards and non-reloadable weapons in shooters anymore. These concepts became obsolete as early as when Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was released, and that was in 1997.

While the keycard gaming concept has indeed fallen out of fashion back in 1997 you have to remember that since 1997 there have been 17 years of different gaming types that exclude them.
Don't you think that after a while, old things always find their way back into the modern world?
Have you checked up fashion? Fashion is cyclical and after a long time of considering some things outdated, people gradually start craving for those old things again.
The fps have evolved beyond keycards and have moved into a vastly different direction than they were back in the 90's and yet as good as they look, many people feel the old fps games had more attitude and are much more memorable and fun to play than what we get today.
So I am all for resurrecting the gameplay element that uses exploration and colored keycards as long as the gameplay can fit with today's improvements and graphics.

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Heck, I call Brutal Doom the mod "Doom meets Mortal Kombat", because fatalities and excessive blood are MK's thing, not Doom's.

If everybody would think like you do, we would probably have only 10% of the food recipes we have today in the world.
Good things should try to mix with each other to see if the results are good or bad.
The biggest mistake somebody can make is to say that one thing should never be mixed with another.
Just because Mortal Kombat is largely known as the only game in the world where one character explicitly gores the other one after one of them has lost the fight, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used in other games and experimented with.
The reason brutal doom does all of these things is because brutal doom tries to bring new engaging things to do in the already perfect doom games that with time have become predictable and started lacking the diversity they were initially known for.

[Marphy Black]

Bloodshot, on 19 July 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

Brutal Doom has literally made people forget what normal doom is like

This is gore. This is serious gore, right down to the baron's intestines falling out.

That is a ridiculous comparison. Doom's death animations hardly compares to the absurdly exaggerated gore of Brutal Doom. In fact, Doom's original artwork embraced quite the opposite: wonderfully refined and meticulous pixel art sequences meant to provide satisfying feedback for every successful kill.

Brutal Doom, on the other hand, thinks it's necessary to spawn two dozen blood splat sprites for each individual bullet impact while the player continuously screams "FUCK YOURSELF!" before entering a really janky execution animation that grows old really fast. This is the work of a clueless guy who thinks you make the game better by multiplying every effect by 100 and justifying it with the claim that it's better because it's more "brutal". Since even a single rifle shot can cause an entire room to be coated in waves of blood, there's no longer any satisfaction to be derived from a kill, an amazingly poor design choice for a game based entirely on killing demons. Every single action is excessive to the point losing any impact it might have had. Brutal Doom is essentially the Michael Bay film of Doom mods, and you'd be hard pressed to find much difference in the target fanbases.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Well, call me a Michael Bay fan, because I think Brutal Doom is awesome, gory fun and something that the current FPS market, saturated with distressingly dull and "artsy" games, is lacking sorely.

Edit: Factual nitpicking here; the player does not continuously scream "FUCK YOURSELF" unless you deliberately mash the "taunt" key over and over again. Which it seems like you must have in this case, so that's your own goof-up.

[LkMax]

Jetpacks, platforming elements, finishing moves, original ego health-system... funny enough this sounds much more like what DNF should be than that garbage that Randy Pitchfuck hyped to hell. Keep in mind though that all of that is still pure hype and speculation since it was only seen by people at Quakecon in a small screen, but as I said, I'm still optimistic.

One thing I didn't expect and I didn't want was no weapon reloading though. IMO it would be better if they made something like the video-game Black (ps2/Xbox) where you still have to reload but your guns have big magazines allowing for Hollywood-style long shootouts.

[Kristian Joensen]

LkMax, on 19 July 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Jetpacks, platforming elements, finishing moves, original ego health-system... funny enough this sounds much more like what DNF should be than that garbage that Randy Pitchfuck hyped to hell. Keep in mind though that all of that is still pure hype and speculation since it was only seen by people at Quakecon in a small screen, but as I said, I'm still optimistic.

One thing I didn't expect and I didn't want was no weapon reloading though. IMO it would be better if they made something like the video-game Black (ps2/Xbox) where you still have to reload but your guns have big magazines allowing for Hollywood-style long shootouts.

I think the ego health thing was a misunderstanding. From other writeups its sounds like they were talking about healthpack drops. But still pretty cool stuff.

[LkMax]

yea it isn't identical to the original ego system, that's for sure, although that's what people were describing.
Still health packs are much better than regenerating health.

[MusicallyInspired]

Loving all the flak Brutal Doom is getting and claiming there's no satisfaction in it when it is in fact so popular. You can't deny the numbers. And it's better that people are playing a modded game that preserves all of Doom's original level and aesthetic design than just another CoD clone.

It's a good thing that it's popular because it's getting people to play a good game. Brutal Doom doesn't ruin Doom. It's the same game with an altered style of combat, which isn't really altered just...added to.

Duke Xtreme did something very similar where you could customize the amount of gore in the game. It wasn't as detailed as Brutal Doom, which added more than just more blood, but it did add a lot. And that's not even new.

[Bloodshot]

Marphy Black, on 19 July 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

That is a ridiculous comparison. Doom's death animations hardly compares to the absurdly exaggerated gore of Brutal Doom.

When did I say they were comparable? All I was responding to was the statement that doom isn't that gory, when it is still one of the goriest games you can find.

Of course Brutal Doom is ridiculous and needlessly exaggerates everything (and I pointed out that its not the same in my original post), but its existence doesn't somehow make the original games less gory.

[-Rhetro-]

HMMMM, a wise man once said "Lets give it a chance"

[Marphy Black]

MusicallyInspired, on 19 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

a modded game that preserves all of Doom's original level and aesthetic design than just another CoD clone.

An interesting choice of game to compare to seeing as Brutal Doom quite specifically introduces these mechanics:
- Iron sights
- Reloading
- Head shots
- Weapon recoil
- Quick melee key
- Bloody screens

Not to mention that Brutal Doom adjusts (or breaks, rather) the gameplay balance by making every monster, attack, and projectile nigh-lethal and less able to be dodged, rendering Doom into the modern hide-behind-cover-while-you-reload shooter genre. Of course, there are Call of Duty-based mods for Doom, but those intentionally wish to encompass COD-style gameplay. BD just falls into it due to ineptness and poor design.

It is also not surprising that Brutal Doom has gained much success for emulating CoD since, you know, CoD is still pretty popular. However, the real selling point of BD is not the gameplay (unfortunate as you'd think this is what players would and should care about) but rather the excessive gore and swearing and so forth that adds the edginess factor that appeals to 12 year olds who are trying to look hardcore to other 12 year olds.

Bloodshot, on 19 July 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Of course Brutal Doom is ridiculous and needlessly exaggerates everything (and I pointed out that its not the same in my original post), but its existence doesn't somehow make the original games less gory.

The gore in Doom was done as a fun-loving tribute to the splatter and horror films of the 80s, namely the Evil Dead and Alien series. However, do you remember Ripley ripping the limbs off the Alien Queen with her bare hands and then curbstomping the alien's head as she tried to crawl away? The gore in Brutal Doom was overdone simply for the sake of pointless sadism, not a surprising fact considering the author proudly boasts about using images of "REAL DEAD PEOPLE" to inspire his mod and even uses them as the photographic bases for his sprites.

Read BD's F1 help screen to see that the author quite brazenly tells you to "torture your enemies" and "cause unnecessary pain" so that you are rewarded with a "cruelty bonus." If you can't see a different between the gore in Doom and Brutal Doom and really think id would have wanted to reward the player for curbstomping crawling enemies back in 1993, then you've totally missed the point of game.

[Hendricks266]

Marphy Black, on 19 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

MusicallyInspired, on 19 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

a modded game that preserves all of Doom's original level and aesthetic design than just another CoD clone.

An interesting choice of game to compare to seeing as Brutal Doom quite specifically introduces these mechanics:
- Iron sights
- Reloading
- Head shots
- Weapon recoil
- Quick melee key
- Bloody screens

Not to mention that Brutal Doom adjusts (or breaks, rather) the gameplay balance by making every monster, attack, and projectile nigh-lethal and less able to be dodged, rendering Doom into the modern hide-behind-cover-while-you-reload shooter genre. Of course, there are Call of Duty-based mods for Doom, but those intentionally wish to encompass COD-style gameplay. BD just falls into it due to ineptness and poor design.

It is also not surprising that Brutal Doom has gained much success for emulating CoD since, you know, CoD is still pretty popular. However, the real selling point of BD is not the gameplay (unfortunate as you'd think this is what players would and should care about) but rather the excessive gore and swearing and so forth that adds the edginess factor that appeals to 12 year olds who are trying to look hardcore to other 12 year olds.

Bloodshot, on 19 July 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Of course Brutal Doom is ridiculous and needlessly exaggerates everything (and I pointed out that its not the same in my original post), but its existence doesn't somehow make the original games less gory.

The gore in Doom was done as a fun-loving tribute to the splatter and horror films of the 80s, namely the Evil Dead and Alien series. However, do you remember Ripley ripping the limbs off the Alien Queen with her bare hands and then curbstomping the alien's head as she tried to crawl away? The gore in Brutal Doom was overdone simply for the sake of pointless sadism, not a surprising fact considering the author proudly boasts about using images of "REAL DEAD PEOPLE" to inspire his mod and even uses them as the photographic bases for his sprites.

Read BD's F1 help screen to see that the author quite brazenly tells you to "torture your enemies" and "cause unnecessary pain" so that you are rewarded with a "cruelty bonus." If you can't see a different between the gore in Doom and Brutal Doom and really think id would have wanted to reward the player for curbstomping crawling enemies back in 1993, then you've totally missed the point of game.

Quoted for fucking truth.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Does this reveal remind anyone of PAX 2010? The whole thing feels like preaching to the choir. The problem is the choir was going to like the sermon anyway and most folks outside the church don't care what the choir thinks.

I mean there's not even a release window, let alone a release date. I think this was a polished vertical slice id made to convince Bethesda they were worth spending money on. Now they have to build the actual game over the next two years. It's not that outrageous since the studio first hinted at Doom 4 way back in 2007.

[HulkNukem]

This new Doom is not a Call of Duty clone like it was rumored to be. The fact that it is a middle ground of Classic Dooms and Doom 3 with a bit of Brutal Doom influence will make the most people happy. Obviously not everyone will be, and there will be cynics, but jesus christ guys, give the devs a chance. No, the original creators aren't around, yes its a new team, but guess what? Chances are, the new team is made up of a bunch of guys who loved the hell out of Doom when it came out in the 90's. They are a fresh set of eyes for Doom, while the original crew haven't made anything great in over a decade (or really, anything at all in some cases).
Just give it a chance. You don't like Brutal Doom? That's fine, because this isn't Brutal Doom. You really like Brutal Doom? That's fine, because this has influences from Brutal Doom. It also has influences from Doom 3 and the Classic Dooms. But one thing is for sure; this is sounding like a much better product than what version was being made before it.

[Bloodshot]

Marphy Black, on 19 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Read BD's F1 help screen to see that the author quite brazenly tells you to "torture your enemies" and "cause unnecessary pain" so that you are rewarded with a "cruelty bonus." If you can't see a different between the gore in Doom and Brutal Doom and really think id would have wanted to reward the player for curbstomping crawling enemies back in 1993, then you've totally missed the point of game.

Bloodshot, on 19 July 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

When did I say they were comparable? All I was responding to was the statement that doom isn't that gory, when it is still one of the goriest games you can find.

Are you deliberately ignoring parts of my posts because i made it clear that I wasn't comparing them but responding to the statement that doom isn't that gory when it is pretty gory.

Doom is very gory =/= doom is as gory as brutal doom.

That's perfectly fine if you don't see brutal doom in line with what doom is - I don't either, but you seem to be instead preoccupied with misinterpreting my posts and then criticizing my understanding of doom as a game and suggesting that I think Brutal Doom is what ID intended when I don't think that way at all and I've never even suggested that I do.

[----]

Something Off Topic (i.e. not about Brutal Doom):

id is getting some technical talent.

Crytek's lead graphic engineer leaaves for id.

Yay, in before: "Oh, Doom willl only be about the graphics. Game is doomed."

[LkMax]

fuegerstef, on 19 July 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Something Off Topic (i.e. not about Brutal Doom)

lol
I thought this topic was about Doom 4, but whatever

[Hendricks266]

fuegerstef, on 19 July 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

id is getting some technical talent.

Crytek's lead graphic engineer leaaves for id.

Yay, in before: "Oh, Doom willl only be about the graphics. Game is doomed."

Babby's first troll? Was Carmack not all about the tech?

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Now Brutal DooM is apparently like CoD? Wow. I apparently must have totally missed something while playing the mod that the rest of you guys apparently saw in spades. Should I be ashamed for liking the mod as much as I do?

Jesus Christ, I've never gotten this angry over a topic like this before.

I think I'll just avoid the topic because I feel like I'm either being trolled or simply am in a very select minority.