[Phredreeke]

MusicallyInspired, on 12 December 2019 - 09:10 PM, said:

They rerecorded all the lines. They didn't use any high quality recordings of the original lines if that's what you're thinking.

The newly recorded one-liners can be disabled except in ep 5.
AFAIK at launch WT used normally filtered resampling, unlike the unfiltered resampling done by ASS (which causes aliasing) - it's like scaling an image using nearest neighbour as opposed to bicubic.

They resolved this by doing the unfiltered resampling in advance.

[NNC]

But who plays World Tour if not for the 5th episode? Everything else is available in a better format. Even for those, who don't own an original copy of Duke3d.GRP. Just copy that file and download EDuke32.

[Phredreeke]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that WT is better than EDuke32.

My point is WT offers something of value to people who already own the original game. Blood Fresh Supply had the latest version of the voxel pack for a while but now fgsfds has released that to everyone.

Also I'd say WT > FS in regards to the engine, it has both the software renderer and their new one with dynamic lighting effects. Meanwhile FS only has the Kex engine approximation of the original. Not gonna go into detail about it, that's what the Fresh Supply thread is for

[Sledgehammer]

[Zaxx]

Phredreeke, on 13 December 2019 - 07:32 AM, said:

Also I'd say WT > FS in regards to the engine, it has both the software renderer and their new one with dynamic lighting effects.

With both being basically unplayable if you're used to proper mouse aiming instead of something that's only mildly more functional than what the original game had (and I don't think I have to introduce Build's abysmal mouse support to anyone here, we've all been there).

And when it comes to the idea of "offering more" sure, there is new content but the only reason you're playing it in WT instead of EDuke32 is simply because you have to. Thanks to some incompetence / disregard for the community Episode 5 is incompatible with the most popular Duke 3D source port.

So sure, the new voxels FS has are available for all the source ports now but NDS / Atari could have said that "nope, we won't let you have the extra voxels, they belong to our port" = we could have easily gotten into the same situation that is going on with WT's new episode. I'd say be glad we didn't instead of saying "well, FS offers nothing now" because only one guy from NDS has to read your comment in order to come to a different conclusion regarding "exclusive content" next time.

[Zaxx]

Here's some funny shit I found while messing around with Age of Empires 2:

I'd love to see somebody collecting all the games using the camel sounds that also defined Doom's zombiemen.

[Phredreeke]

Unpopular opinion: After playing 3 and a half map of Sigil (map three crashing after I collect the red key in Doom Retro, something I've reported to the port's author) I can't say I feel very engaged with it (unlike when I played Eviternity and kept wanting to see more)

[ReaperAA]

Just played halfway through Doom Zero (at map 16 atm and playing every level with saveless pistolstarts on UV). WOW this wad is really good. Its extremely simple, yet complex at the same time. The encounters are really well thought out and the ideas are pure genius like choosing a single key/path and the stealth play in map 6 etc. It's really surprising it didn't win a cacoward.

[Ninety-Six]

ReaperAA, on 14 December 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

Just played halfway through Doom Zero (at map 16 atm and playing every level with saveless pistolstarts on UV). WOW this wad is really good. Its extremely simple, yet complex at the same time. The encounters are really well thought out and the ideas are pure genius like choosing a single key/path and the stealth play in map 6 etc.

Yeah it's really good. I even love the secrets which is not usually the kind of thing I bother to take note of. But every secret is like a puzzle, and intentionally so I think. The levels constantly dangle goodies in front of you, letting you know a secret is there, and then just leaves it to you to figure out how to open it. I don't think I've ever played a mapset (or a map, really) before where the reward is not just getting the goods themselves, but also getting that "aha" moment from solving a puzzle. You feel really accomplished for figuring them out and that's just grand.

This is definitely one I'm keeping to revisit when I revisit Doom on the whole.

Spoiler

ReaperAA, on 14 December 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

It's really surprising it didn't win a cacoward.

It's not, really

[MusicallyInspired]

Sounds good. Going to have to try that one.

[Marphy Black]

ReaperAA, on 14 December 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

It's really surprising it didn't win a cacoward.

Doom Zero is a very ambitious but also amateurish production on both a technical and design level. It gets simple things wrong which are easy to fix. As of now, the WAD includes almost the entirety of Doom 2's completely unaltered IWAD graphics lumps because he wanted to make it vanilla DOS compatible, but he doesn't understand how to do it properly. This is the equivalent of including the all of Duke 3D's ART files in a DUKE3D.GRP in your Duke mod because you wanted to change a few weapon tiles. For reference, he was instructed on how to very simply fix this issue, but he declined to follow the advice because... of some reason?

Design-wise, there are many improper and awkward uses of things like Block Sound lines and Ambush flags on monsters, indicating a lack of understanding of the tools at hand. This is important in these particular maps because there are a number of gimmicks set forth, and it's clear what the intentions are supposed to be, but the setups don't work like the author imagined because they're not built appropriately. There are a lot of poorly designed encounters in general as well, like deep pits that you are required to run across to progress, but a horde of demons was released into the pit moments beforehand. For something designed to be vanilla compatible, the fact that monsters possess infinite height in the original engine should have been taken into utmost consideration, because this situation is effectively impossible to overcome due to it. In short, the WAD exudes all the foibles of one's first time maps, and by all accounts, they very nearly are.

[NightFright]

The other joke is, I asked the DZ author to remove all the duplicated sprites from the wad and he didn't want to. It would have reduced filesize considerably and made it more compatible for many mods out there. At least he could have provided a "non-vanilla edition" or something as an alternative for people who want to use mods with this. Anyway, maybe others will do it for him now that it got a bit more attention in the wake of the Cacowards.

[Ninety-Six]

I've been tinkering around with Final Doomer lately, mostly because I decided to check the thread out of curiosity and was shocked to find out that even the most recent version is zdoom-compatible. Almost seems like that's the primary platform even, with GZDoom being secondary. Considering how rare that is I figured I just had to try it out.

I'm surprised at how much fun it is. Not that I thought it was going to be bad, but I figured it would be more of a fun distraction to toy with than anything else. But no it's actually really fun. All the weapon slots have justified replacements that make sense both with the other guns in how they compensate for weaknesses, as well as how they're balanced around their target wads. I suppose that's the advantage of developing weapons for a specific mod in mind, because you don't need to scale and adjust things to account for any situation, you can tighten things up around the one level pack only.

Hell. This thing is actually making me consider giving Anicent Aliens another shot. The weapons seem to have been boosted to even the odds a bit. The shotgun kills more consistently, the BFG is designed for the slaughter levels, and I'm pretty sure the weapons switch a lot faster (compared to vanilla, anyway), which essentially defangs those "have the correct weapon before the trap springs" traps, which make up the bulk of AA's unfairness. The extra power also makes those traps actually survivable on reaction times and good judgement instead of dying to them first to know them. That still doesn't excuse the level design but there's a chance it might actually be playable now at least.

My favorite weapon set is probably Hellbound's though (and is making me consider trying that one again, too). I can't exactly put my finger on why (except the C4. I know exactly why I love that one).

[necroslut]

Is it just me who hates the weapon models in the new Dooms (to an extent shared with the Wolfensteins)? Overdesigned garbage.

[Zaxx]

I'm pretty sure it's just you.

[OpenMaw]

necroslut, on 30 December 2019 - 11:02 PM, said:

Is it just me who hates the weapon models in the new Dooms (to an extent shared with the Wolfensteins)? Overdesigned garbage.

It depends on which gun we're talking about. I like the Rocket Launcher, the BFG, the super shotgun. My wish since Doom 3 has been for a proper classic shotgun. Which is one of the designs that has just gotten worse and worse imho. The shotgun in Doom Eternal is basically a slow firing machine gun now which is nuts and kinda breaks the fun of boom-click-click for me.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 31 December 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

My wish since Doom 3 has been for a proper classic shotgun.

Why though? The super shotgun IS your classic shotgun now, that's the only one where it being a weapon from the 20th century somewhat makes sense (it's like vinyl, an outdated classic that is just so cool that someone is bound to have it in his collection ). The rest should be sci-fi stuff but overall they did a good job in keeping most of the arsenal somewhat realistic looking (for example the combat shotgun of Doom 2016 resembles the DP-12 quite a bit) or they have designs that represent their functionality and "power level" really well. On top of that I just don't see how the old school shotgun design would fit the weapon mod system, that's another thing you can still somewhat sell with the super shotgun (it's Doomguy's lightsaber so he modified it etc.) but not much else.

Anyway they're trying in the name of monetization so at least you'll get the classic color scheme back:


As for the new mod that makes it into an auto shotgun (you're complaining about an FPS having an auto shotgun now? really?) I don't think we'll use that a lot considering how stingy the new games are with your ammo carry capacity.

[NightFright]

Pre-Orders need to die.

[Zaxx]

Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to buy that skin for Slayer coins or some shit like that too. Bethesda will be Bethesda.

[OpenMaw]

I don't really care about any of that. I like the classic wood grain pump shotgun. Not a reskin of a super-sci-fi gun or anything. I just like the old school shotgun. I like it so much I bought myself a Tootsie Toy Dakota just to have it.

The super-shotgun is not the classic shotgun. It's the super-shotgun, and it would be a really stupid move to ever mess with it. Hell, they're stylistically pushing that sumbitch as hard as they can in Doom Eternal.

As to integrated upgrades into a classic shotty. Why do all guns need to be ubiqitous to a system? Plus you could,instead of having upgrade options, have different ammo types for the shotty. Buck, slug, explosive, dragons breath (Call it Heaven's Flame. and make it a wicked blue color or something.)

When we're talking strictly the mechanics? I have no complaints with Doom 2016. I just think Necroslut has a point. The guns are a little over-designed for my tastes. Just because you can shove in a load of detail and design doesn't mean you have to. It bit them in the ass with the level design, because they had to push that much harder to make the pathing through the maps apparent. So there are ups and downs to that.

It's just my opinion, Zaxx. I just wish that Doom 3 and up had given me a classic Ithaca-era pump shotty, because at heart I am Corporal Hicks when I play Doom. and I like to keep this handy... For close encounters. *chu-chik*

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 31 December 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't really care about any of that. I like the classic wood grain pump shotgun.

Desturctive nostalgia is destructive. Don't get me wrong, I get it, you like the design very much so you want to see it return, I just think that a bog standard pump action shotgun would be a huge letdown after the great designs they introduced in the last game (except for the plasma gun, that one had to go ) and the same goes for the alternate ammo stuff (tons of games did it already, it's pretty boring now while changing how the gun actually works has more interesting possibilities).

I really-really disagree with the "overdesigned" part, I think the attention to detail on the guns was amazing in the last game and the weapon introduction animations were just a treat to watch. They are not overdesigned just because they look exotic, Doom is not Final Fantasy where every armor has 3 more armors on top of it.

This is an art form compared to just shoving an Ithaca or a toy gun into the game, I'm sorry:

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 31 December 2019 - 03:55 PM, said:

I really-really disagree with the "overdesigned" part, I think the attention to detail on the guns was amazing in the last game and the weapon introduction animations were just a treat to watch. They are not overdesigned just because they look exotic, Doom is not Final Fantasy where every armor has 3 more armors on top of it.

Lol you just summed up exactly what they did. I also don't think "destructive nostalgia" is much of a valid argument when we're talking about a sequel/remake.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 31 December 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

Lol you just summed up exactly what they did.

No, honestly I just think that you fail to understand / refuse to accept the design philosophy behind the new Doom games which is admittedly very different than the "randomness" of the original Doom. The new games are more tongue in cheek than the old ones were, they have a slightly crazier, more over the top visual language. Comparing OG Doom to Doom 2016 and up is kind of like comparing Red Alert 1 to Red Alert 2: they are essentially doing the same thing but RA2 focuses more on the power fantasy and it doesn't take itself seriously.

So the weapons of Doom 2016 are tongue in cheek too but they are not overdesigned. It's not like how for example in the original Prey you picked up a weapon and you were like "oookay, this looks interesting but the fuck does it do?": nope, in Doom 2016 every single weapon looks the part and you can instantly identify what they are good for just by looking at them. You don't like the designs? Cool, you are entitled to your own taste but saying that the weapons of the game are "overdesigned garbage" is just retarded.

Quote

I also don't think "destructive nostalgia" is much of a valid argument when we're talking about a sequel/remake.

I'd somewhat agree with this if there was any sort of real personal continuity between the development team of the original game and the new ones but there isn't. Let the new guys make their version of Doom I say, it worked out well so far.

I will say though that I really don't like fanservice if it's the pandering kind ("remember this thing you've seen back in the day? it's back now!") so my tolerance level is lower than usual when it comes to that stuff. To me even bringing back the old plasma design for Eternal is pushing it a bit and I'm usually on the side of just making new stuff even if it's a close sequel.

[Aristotle Gumball]

I agree that the weapons seem overdesigned in the new games, but the whole look of Doom Eternal made me throw up in my mouth a bit. It reminded me of that dumb Chronicles of Riddick movie from 2004 and an old Linkin Park music video from the same time period:


Just lame shit for teenagers. I miss when games were more minimalistic, and I'm not talking about "retro graphics". Don't need so much detail on everything.

[Zaxx]

Dude, at this point I can literally smell the "being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian." A few years ago everything was mind numbingly colorless and every weapon looked like your usual assault rifles and shotguns, now that some videogames look like videogames again we're back to the early to mid 2000s of "why does everything have to be a sci-fi shooter? why can't it look more minimalistic and realistic?"

"Kids like Doom again? The game sold millions of copies and was amazingly well received by the general audience? BURN IT AT THE STAKE!"

[Aristotle Gumball]

Fuck the general audience, but I get that they will go where the money is and this is just a case of "old man yells at cloud". All we can do is sit and lament, or make our own game.

BTW, I've always been into minimalism. When people complained that Deus Ex looked bland and dreary, I thought it was perfect, lol. I don't care for realism, though, just that the world makes sense somewhat. You know, like Star Trek TNG vs Star Trek Discovery.

[Zaxx]

So very cheap sets with even TV lighting vs. an actual budget and high quality special effects, got it. I watch TNG religously to this day but the last thing I'd defend is the show's looks.

[Aristotle Gumball]

It's not so much the techniques used, but the aesthetic. They can accomplish a tasteful artistic direction with higher quality effects nowadays, but instead it seems like they're going for a "let's just cram every scene full of as much detail as possible". That's what I have an issue with.

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:

blah blah

Whatever, retard. We all know your opinions on everything are dumb. I'm out.

[OpenMaw]

Zaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:

So very cheap sets with even TV lighting vs. an actual budget and high quality special effects, got it. I watch TNG religously to this day but the last thing I'd defend is the show's looks.

You purposely misconstrued what he said.