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Doom corner  "for all Doom related discussion"

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • Buy Mage's Initiation!

#3361

Sounds good. Going to have to try that one.
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#3362

View PostReaperAA, on 14 December 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

It's really surprising it didn't win a cacoward.

Doom Zero is a very ambitious but also amateurish production on both a technical and design level. It gets simple things wrong which are easy to fix. As of now, the WAD includes almost the entirety of Doom 2's completely unaltered IWAD graphics lumps because he wanted to make it vanilla DOS compatible, but he doesn't understand how to do it properly. This is the equivalent of including the all of Duke 3D's ART files in a DUKE3D.GRP in your Duke mod because you wanted to change a few weapon tiles. For reference, he was instructed on how to very simply fix this issue, but he declined to follow the advice because... of some reason?

Design-wise, there are many improper and awkward uses of things like Block Sound lines and Ambush flags on monsters, indicating a lack of understanding of the tools at hand. This is important in these particular maps because there are a number of gimmicks set forth, and it's clear what the intentions are supposed to be, but the setups don't work like the author imagined because they're not built appropriately. There are a lot of poorly designed encounters in general as well, like deep pits that you are required to run across to progress, but a horde of demons was released into the pit moments beforehand. For something designed to be vanilla compatible, the fact that monsters possess infinite height in the original engine should have been taken into utmost consideration, because this situation is effectively impossible to overcome due to it. In short, the WAD exudes all the foibles of one's first time maps, and by all accounts, they very nearly are.
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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3363

The other joke is, I asked the DZ author to remove all the duplicated sprites from the wad and he didn't want to. It would have reduced filesize considerably and made it more compatible for many mods out there. At least he could have provided a "non-vanilla edition" or something as an alternative for people who want to use mods with this. Anyway, maybe others will do it for him now that it got a bit more attention in the wake of the Cacowards.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 16 December 2019 - 04:52 AM

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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3364

I've been tinkering around with Final Doomer lately, mostly because I decided to check the thread out of curiosity and was shocked to find out that even the most recent version is zdoom-compatible. Almost seems like that's the primary platform even, with GZDoom being secondary. Considering how rare that is I figured I just had to try it out.

I'm surprised at how much fun it is. Not that I thought it was going to be bad, but I figured it would be more of a fun distraction to toy with than anything else. But no it's actually really fun. All the weapon slots have justified replacements that make sense both with the other guns in how they compensate for weaknesses, as well as how they're balanced around their target wads. I suppose that's the advantage of developing weapons for a specific mod in mind, because you don't need to scale and adjust things to account for any situation, you can tighten things up around the one level pack only.

Hell. This thing is actually making me consider giving Anicent Aliens another shot. The weapons seem to have been boosted to even the odds a bit. The shotgun kills more consistently, the BFG is designed for the slaughter levels, and I'm pretty sure the weapons switch a lot faster (compared to vanilla, anyway), which essentially defangs those "have the correct weapon before the trap springs" traps, which make up the bulk of AA's unfairness. The extra power also makes those traps actually survivable on reaction times and good judgement instead of dying to them first to know them. That still doesn't excuse the level design but there's a chance it might actually be playable now at least.

My favorite weapon set is probably Hellbound's though (and is making me consider trying that one again, too). I can't exactly put my finger on why (except the C4. I know exactly why I love that one).

This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 30 December 2019 - 08:08 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

#3365

Is it just me who hates the weapon models in the new Dooms (to an extent shared with the Wolfensteins)? Overdesigned garbage.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3366

I'm pretty sure it's just you.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#3367

View Postnecroslut, on 30 December 2019 - 11:02 PM, said:

Is it just me who hates the weapon models in the new Dooms (to an extent shared with the Wolfensteins)? Overdesigned garbage.


It depends on which gun we're talking about. I like the Rocket Launcher, the BFG, the super shotgun. My wish since Doom 3 has been for a proper classic shotgun. Which is one of the designs that has just gotten worse and worse imho. The shotgun in Doom Eternal is basically a slow firing machine gun now which is nuts and kinda breaks the fun of boom-click-click for me.






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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3368

View PostCommando Nukem, on 31 December 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

My wish since Doom 3 has been for a proper classic shotgun.

Why though? The super shotgun IS your classic shotgun now, that's the only one where it being a weapon from the 20th century somewhat makes sense (it's like vinyl, an outdated classic that is just so cool that someone is bound to have it in his collection :D). The rest should be sci-fi stuff but overall they did a good job in keeping most of the arsenal somewhat realistic looking (for example the combat shotgun of Doom 2016 resembles the DP-12 quite a bit) or they have designs that represent their functionality and "power level" really well. On top of that I just don't see how the old school shotgun design would fit the weapon mod system, that's another thing you can still somewhat sell with the super shotgun (it's Doomguy's lightsaber so he modified it etc.) but not much else.

Anyway they're trying in the name of monetization so at least you'll get the classic color scheme back:
https://www.wingamestore.com/images_screenthumbs/doom-eternal-83344.jpg

As for the new mod that makes it into an auto shotgun (you're complaining about an FPS having an auto shotgun now? really?) I don't think we'll use that a lot considering how stingy the new games are with your ammo carry capacity.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 31 December 2019 - 02:22 PM

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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3369

Pre-Orders need to die.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3370

Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to buy that skin for Slayer coins or some shit like that too. Bethesda will be Bethesda.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 31 December 2019 - 02:48 PM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#3371

I don't really care about any of that. I like the classic wood grain pump shotgun. Not a reskin of a super-sci-fi gun or anything. I just like the old school shotgun. I like it so much I bought myself a Tootsie Toy Dakota just to have it.

The super-shotgun is not the classic shotgun. It's the super-shotgun, and it would be a really stupid move to ever mess with it. Hell, they're stylistically pushing that sumbitch as hard as they can in Doom Eternal.

As to integrated upgrades into a classic shotty. Why do all guns need to be ubiqitous to a system? Plus you could,instead of having upgrade options, have different ammo types for the shotty. Buck, slug, explosive, dragons breath (Call it Heaven's Flame. and make it a wicked blue color or something.)

When we're talking strictly the mechanics? I have no complaints with Doom 2016. I just think Necroslut has a point. The guns are a little over-designed for my tastes. Just because you can shove in a load of detail and design doesn't mean you have to. It bit them in the ass with the level design, because they had to push that much harder to make the pathing through the maps apparent. So there are ups and downs to that.

It's just my opinion, Zaxx. I just wish that Doom 3 and up had given me a classic Ithaca-era pump shotty, because at heart I am Corporal Hicks when I play Doom. and I like to keep this handy... For close encounters. *chu-chik*
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3372

View PostCommando Nukem, on 31 December 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't really care about any of that. I like the classic wood grain pump shotgun.

Desturctive nostalgia is destructive. Don't get me wrong, I get it, you like the design very much so you want to see it return, I just think that a bog standard pump action shotgun would be a huge letdown after the great designs they introduced in the last game (except for the plasma gun, that one had to go :D) and the same goes for the alternate ammo stuff (tons of games did it already, it's pretty boring now while changing how the gun actually works has more interesting possibilities).

I really-really disagree with the "overdesigned" part, I think the attention to detail on the guns was amazing in the last game and the weapon introduction animations were just a treat to watch. They are not overdesigned just because they look exotic, Doom is not Final Fantasy where every armor has 3 more armors on top of it.

This is an art form compared to just shoving an Ithaca or a toy gun into the game, I'm sorry:


This post has been edited by Zaxx: 31 December 2019 - 03:59 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

#3373

View PostZaxx, on 31 December 2019 - 03:55 PM, said:

I really-really disagree with the "overdesigned" part, I think the attention to detail on the guns was amazing in the last game and the weapon introduction animations were just a treat to watch. They are not overdesigned just because they look exotic, Doom is not Final Fantasy where every armor has 3 more armors on top of it.

Lol you just summed up exactly what they did. I also don't think "destructive nostalgia" is much of a valid argument when we're talking about a sequel/remake.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3374

View Postnecroslut, on 31 December 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

Lol you just summed up exactly what they did.

No, honestly I just think that you fail to understand / refuse to accept the design philosophy behind the new Doom games which is admittedly very different than the "randomness" of the original Doom. The new games are more tongue in cheek than the old ones were, they have a slightly crazier, more over the top visual language. Comparing OG Doom to Doom 2016 and up is kind of like comparing Red Alert 1 to Red Alert 2: they are essentially doing the same thing but RA2 focuses more on the power fantasy and it doesn't take itself seriously.

So the weapons of Doom 2016 are tongue in cheek too but they are not overdesigned. It's not like how for example in the original Prey you picked up a weapon and you were like "oookay, this looks interesting but the fuck does it do?": nope, in Doom 2016 every single weapon looks the part and you can instantly identify what they are good for just by looking at them. You don't like the designs? Cool, you are entitled to your own taste but saying that the weapons of the game are "overdesigned garbage" is just retarded.

Quote

I also don't think "destructive nostalgia" is much of a valid argument when we're talking about a sequel/remake.

I'd somewhat agree with this if there was any sort of real personal continuity between the development team of the original game and the new ones but there isn't. Let the new guys make their version of Doom I say, it worked out well so far.

I will say though that I really don't like fanservice if it's the pandering kind ("remember this thing you've seen back in the day? it's back now!") so my tolerance level is lower than usual when it comes to that stuff. To me even bringing back the old plasma design for Eternal is pushing it a bit and I'm usually on the side of just making new stuff even if it's a close sequel.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 01 January 2020 - 01:36 AM

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#3375

I agree that the weapons seem overdesigned in the new games, but the whole look of Doom Eternal made me throw up in my mouth a bit. It reminded me of that dumb Chronicles of Riddick movie from 2004 and an old Linkin Park music video from the same time period:


Just lame shit for teenagers. I miss when games were more minimalistic, and I'm not talking about "retro graphics". Don't need so much detail on everything.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 01 January 2020 - 01:46 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3376

Dude, at this point I can literally smell the "being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian." A few years ago everything was mind numbingly colorless and every weapon looked like your usual assault rifles and shotguns, now that some videogames look like videogames again we're back to the early to mid 2000s of "why does everything have to be a sci-fi shooter? why can't it look more minimalistic and realistic?" :D

"Kids like Doom again? The game sold millions of copies and was amazingly well received by the general audience? BURN IT AT THE STAKE!" :D

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 01 January 2020 - 02:04 AM

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#3377

Fuck the general audience, but I get that they will go where the money is and this is just a case of "old man yells at cloud". All we can do is sit and lament, or make our own game.

BTW, I've always been into minimalism. When people complained that Deus Ex looked bland and dreary, I thought it was perfect, lol. I don't care for realism, though, just that the world makes sense somewhat. You know, like Star Trek TNG vs Star Trek Discovery.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3378

So very cheap sets with even TV lighting vs. an actual budget and high quality special effects, got it. :D I watch TNG religously to this day but the last thing I'd defend is the show's looks.
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#3379

It's not so much the techniques used, but the aesthetic. They can accomplish a tasteful artistic direction with higher quality effects nowadays, but instead it seems like they're going for a "let's just cram every scene full of as much detail as possible". That's what I have an issue with.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#3380

View PostZaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:

blah blah

Whatever, retard. We all know your opinions on everything are dumb. I'm out.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#3381

View PostZaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 02:20 AM, said:

So very cheap sets with even TV lighting vs. an actual budget and high quality special effects, got it. :D I watch TNG religously to this day but the last thing I'd defend is the show's looks.


You purposely misconstrued what he said.
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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3382



I managed to do it, after nearly getting 33/34 twice, and eventually settled on a 35.

Never. Again.

This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 01 January 2020 - 10:42 AM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#3383

View PostRadar 100 Watts, on 01 January 2020 - 10:11 AM, said:

Nah I agree with Zaxx. Doom 2016 was loved by veteran Doomers and Gen Z gamers alike, but now you're complaining about aesthetics. Sure.



So the only options people have is, loved it without question or absolutely hate it. Is that it? That's bullshit.



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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3384

View Postnecroslut, on 01 January 2020 - 07:06 AM, said:

Whatever, retard. We all know your opinions on everything are dumb. I'm out.

Hey, at least I can maintain a normal conversation without losing my shit for no reason. Btw. yes, I do find your opinion the mumblings of a frustrated contrarian who's angry because a game got popular so he desperately found somethnig to dislike but that doesn't mean that we can't talk about it. :D

Quote

You purposely misconstrued what he said.

It's called a joke.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#3385

View PostZaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

It's called a joke.


It would have to be funny for it to qualify, and instead of making a joke, you shoud have actually responded to what was said.


Guy: These are my preferences
Guy 2: HAHA HA TITS FART BUTTBUBBLES GURP GURP.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3386

So now you want to tell me what funny is too? :D

Look, the thing is that I just don't think that comparing TNG to Discovery when it comes to visuals is a good argument at all because there is no real contest there. TNG was so cheap compared to anything relatively modern that nowadays if you watch the remastered version of the show in HD you're like "hey, that styrofoam wall moved" and "hey, another scene shot on Planet Hell!" (Planet Hell is the stage in Paramount Studios they used to shoot lots of planet exteriors / caves). Hell, even some of the iconic things fans appreciate are there because of the cheap production, for example Picard is straightening his uniform all the time because the costume was made too short so Patrick Stewart had to figure something out to keep it in place so that it would look nice on camera. And that's how we have this (and btw. these were the better costumes they got later on the show, before these the uniforms were fucking jumpsuits):


Yep, Discovery can bother you because it's just obnoxious in a lot of places but that has nothing to do with how detailed the CGI is. The people behind Discovery were just idiots so they made Star Trek into a war movie.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 01 January 2020 - 04:03 PM

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#3387

Damn, necro was right about his word usage. I noticed it in other threads too, but the picture's clear now.

Anyway I'm glad a few of us could agree about the art direction of these new games being problematic. And don't get me wrong, I liked Doom 2016 (although I wasn't as crazy about it as others) and Eternal might be fun, but I wish we got away from "more is better!!". A good rule to follow with graphics should be "with great power comes great responsibility". :)
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3388

View Postthricecursed, on 01 January 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

Damn, necro was right about his word usage. I noticed it in other threads too, but the picture's clear now.

What? :D My word usage? :D Should I call everyone retarded too or what's wrong with my word usage? I want to fit in, please tell me how much I have to dumb myself down and how much more jaded I should be so that I could relate to the deep things going on here.

Dude, English is my fucking second language, my vocabulary and my grammar are both terrible yet I'm the one who repeatedly gets called pretentious because of his word usage? If you live in an English speaking country then please emigrate if you can only speak in a proto language.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 01 January 2020 - 04:27 PM

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#3389

View PostZaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 04:22 PM, said:

What? :D My word usage? :D Should I call everyone retarded too or what's wrong with my word usage?


I'm saying necroslut was right to call you a retard because you are one. Lmao
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#3390

View Postthricecursed, on 01 January 2020 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm saying necroslut was right to call you a retard because you are one. Lmao

Why? Because we disagree on the weapon designs of Doom 2016 and how Star Trek TNG looks like???? That's enough for you to start insulting the other guy? What the fuck?

How about coming up with an actual argument in a discussion instead of showing how much of a sociopath you are?

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 01 January 2020 - 04:42 PM

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