[Forge]

ck3D, on 04 September 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

But one can pull it off just like that without fucking shit up, there's no real science to it?

iirc, it's called 'expert mode'

[Aleks]

Forge, on 06 September 2020 - 08:18 AM, said:

iirc, it's called 'expert mode'

Yeah, it can be turned on and off in the console to allow joining non-adjacent sectors, no idea however if there is any other purpose to it. Doesn't change the fact that joining non-adjacent sectors can still mess up things pretty bad

I think I managed to get around the issue with fake-SOS windows, but I'd still appreciate more robust solutions to the problem. In general, what I did was copying the exact, tiny bit of the map with window and the outside to a new map, edit it to get the effect working in an old Mapster version and copy it back - without even moving or touching - to the "main" map. It is considered as 2 level 4 corruptions, which can be however "fixed" by either automatic tryfix command or just moving one of the odd vertices to turn the "fake red wall" white. There is a limited possibility to still manipulate this window, by selecting the fragile vertices with Shift along with some other sprite/vertex, the dragging the whole selection by that sprite. Also, doing any sector split in the outer sector blocks the window and essentially messes up the effect, so gotta be really careful around it.

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 06 September 2020 - 11:49 AM, said:

Also, doing any sector split in the outer sector blocks the window and essentially messes up the effect, so gotta be really careful around it.

This reminds me, one of the maps I'm sitting on has this weird thing going on with one particular sector that if I try to go and split it, or create another island sector inside of it, consistently the level just goes and nukes most of the map, turning red walls white, deleting chunks of seemingly random rooms and whatnot. This really isn't much of a problem as that map is 99.9% finished design-wise so I don't *need* to add to that sector (I can always fine-tune the detailing with sprites if anything), but I gotta be careful around that one too. It's only puzzling me because the map has zero detected corruption, but the sector is huge and while it's stacked under many layers of SOS (it's one big subway track that loops around and under most of the map), the splits/island sectors I've tried to make before were in 'clear' areas devoid of SOS so there should be very few odds of interference. The subway train in that sector used to behave weirdly too, as at first I couldn't get it to work for no discernible reason, then people on here suggested I'd check the sectnums and that's when I realized somehow the editor had somehow been copy pasting several iterations of the subway sectors right atop of one another (and in 2D mode I was tagging the wrong layer), but I fixed that a long time ago. Basic charming Build jank I guess.

On a side note while I'm at it, here's a screenshot of the only occasion I ever got the special sprites to show up in game somehow, while beta-testing Woudrichem War for Maarten. You can see the Music&SFX sprite but also some Respawns or Locators high up in the sky in the distance, and also half the city not rendering properly/displaying HOM. The map kept giving me weird stuff that time (then I realized it must having my computer not handling it right in the moment, my OS was trying to update itself in the background, etc.), walls that wouldn't draw/display HOM/could be clipped into and a lot of random nonsense which honestly was fascinating, just very confusing to face for fifteen minutes first thing when you just launched the level for beta testing. After a few crashes/relaunches all giving different random results every time I managed to progress into the level enough to destroy some sprites (and/or my computer felt better) and it all played perfectly and from then on I could never replicate it again be it in the beta or final map. Was wary of posting the screenshot not to give Maarten's level bad press around the time of its release (although the issue was never on the level's end), but there's been water under the bridge since and all things considered, it's a pretty cool curiosity.

[Mark]

I thought that working with conveyor belts was going to be quick and easy. Not this time. I needed to chain together 4 sectors for a pathway to drag something. I created and adjusted the first sector with the Conveyor and Speed SE and it worked fine. Then I created 3 more sectors and placed the SEs into them. Tested the map and the first sector stopped working while the other 3 worked fine. I went thru the process of rebuilding a few times in different ways but still couldn't get all 4 sectors working. There was always at least 1 sector not moving. After about 30 minutes of failure I stumbled on the fix. It seems I have to create all 4 sectors at the same time and then place the SEs in them all at the same time too before saving the map. Thats odd. I never used anything other than a single sector conveyor before this so I have no idea if they have always been this finnicky.

[Aleks]

^ Never knew about this/noticed it, now that might be quite useful in the future.

A little Mapster question: Is there any way to make the "invisible" ('+I) sprites not automatically adopt the blocking and hitscan bits active in the game? It seems that no matter how I set them in Mapster, they still are always blocked and hitscan active in the game...

[High Treason]

Can't test right now, but maybe you could try manually adding 32768 to the CSTAT field in the F8 menu?
See this for CSTAT bits, just add the ones you want together; https://wiki.eduke32.com/wiki/Cstat

May require script_expertmode to be enabled, may revert if you work on the map with it disabled in the future, may not, unsure of whether it's as strict as messing with things like sectnum.

[MetHy]

I found that using command line was easier than using the F8 menu as far as cstats are concerned.

Select your sprite and type in the console:
do for i selsprites cstator 32768

Or, to remove or add certain bits (example for blocking):
do for i selsprites xor sprite[i].cstat 1

[Aleks]

Thanks, guys.

I figured it's something to do with CSTAT, but in F8 menu it seems there is no field for CSTAT (even in expert mode), unless it's something you have to enable manually. I'm using r8930 build which is pretty recent.

As for the console command, changing CSTATOR for 32768 instead of turning the sprite invisible with I+' might indeed be a better idea, as the sprites have correct CSTAT values in Mapster and only change in game. However, the console commands you mentioned, MetHy, doesn't seem to work (again, I have expert mode enabled) - I get 2 error messages that "symbol 'i' is not a game variable" and "unkown iteration type 'elsprites'" (I typed it correctly, so it's not a typo with "elsprites" ). Anyway, is there some proper guide to Mapster console commands? The ones on EDuke wiki or infosuite seems rather humble...

[oasiz]

Try this.

In console:
`include cstat`

And use ALT C


Also to enable iterator i, you need to type `do gamevar i 0 0` in console once.

Attached thumbnail(s)

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Attached File(s)

•  cstat.zip (1.11K)
  Number of downloads: 290

[Aleks]

Thanks, that cstat script should be very useful for me!

After doing some more investigations on the issue, it turned out to be far more trivial than I thought - it has nothing to do with sprites being invisible, it's just that these particular sprites (which were switches) have default cstator for blocking and hitscan bits automatically added, which is something that actually never occurred to me before (or it did many years ago and I forgot). The simple solution was making the switch 1-sided, turned away from the player and invisible on top of that, so it doesn't get in path of the bullets.

Ah well, at least I've learned a little console commands, which still seem like black magic to me

[oasiz]

If you get blocked, DNDEBUG can help you see how the game messes up with any internals in case you run into weirdness.

[pavigna]

hey ok so it's worth asking here. i'm making a rock in the desert that explodes and reveals a boss. thing is, i gave the collapsing sector's gpspeed a 64 lotag, like the one in E1L2, but it immediately drops and not slowly. I connected the whole mechanism to a touchplate and have about 400 c9's connected to this mechanism.

[ck3D]

Is your SE for the destruction effect pointing down? That's an easy one to overlook. Should be placed at the correct height too.

Could be half a dozen of things, you shouldn't need to touch your C9's though: https://infosuite.du...e_demolition_a3

[pavigna]

ck3D, on 30 October 2020 - 05:23 AM, said:

Is your SE for the destruction effect pointing down? That's an easy one to overlook. Should be placed at the correct height too.

Could be half a dozen of things, you shouldn't need to touch your C9's though: https://infosuite.du...e_demolition_a3

well, did what you told me, and just by facing down the sprites it worked lol. as simple as that, i just forgot a simple thing. thanks a lot!

[1337DirtAlliance]

I know i've asked this before a few years ago... but for some reason i'm unable to find it anywhere using the search. I can't find it anywhere in the Wiki either.


What key(s) it is you press to activate poly lighting in 3d mode in mapster??

[ck3D]

I've asked that question before and never got any reply but my interrogation still stands: I make maps in and (ideally) for classic mode, yet I've observed some specific textures are rendered with a different alignment when the map is eventually run in a sharper renderer, most especially some specific car tiles will look completely off height-wise (lengthwise they are still in alignment with the correct repeats) and just recently I noticed the blinking Wham Bam Hotel sign also rendered wrong occasionally (in my instance it was broken down in several walls to compose another sign that says something else, but in 32-bit the wrong letters get displayed). I don't think I've seen the car thing in other maps than mine (then again I almost always play in classic so even if it occurred I'd miss it) so what do I need to do, should I align everything in 32-bit and that won't mess it up in classic or will it? Is it a wall orientation thing? Why are those textures in particular affected?

I can post screenshots if no one knows what I'm talking about but I can't be the only one who's experienced that, if no one else ever complained about it it's probably really basic. For a quick reference though, see the truck around 6:00 in this video playthrough of Poison Heart, player is using World Tour but it's the same in eDuke. Also in his video, a lot of the sprites keep clipping in and out of existence on the walls which I know happens in 32-bit when the wall is too close when things look clean in classic, I always wondered why that was and what exactly made the difference:



Mostly asking because some of the cars (and that hotel sign) in maps I'm working on right now get messed up like this and I would like to ensure maximum compatibility. Thanks!

[Aleks]

Hmmm, I just made some small investigation on this thing using your truck from Poison Heart and my pickup, checking for different renderer modes and wall orientations. Your truck looks fine in classic and polymost, just gets messed up in polymer - and no matter the orientation of the wall texture (it just gets messed up in a different way). Curiously, the very same texture on my pickup doesn't get messed with polymer (but skybox goes off and indeed wall oriented sprites ornamented closely on walls glitch).

I think the problem is with polymer not rendering correctly tiles that have a dimension different than a power of 2. I've seen someone talking about it not long ago and showing a picture from HH cinema projector with WT renderer, which seems closest to polymer - and that it has been only recently fixed in Eduke. Also, there's this "jumping" thing with aligning of such textures when panning them in Mapster (I've usually noticed it with car textures as well, which are not power of 2).

Ah well, Polymer seems to be kind of a relict by now that isn't really being developed, so I'd rather focus on making it look good in classic and polymost.

[Mark]

1337DirtAlliance, on 01 November 2020 - 11:24 PM, said:

I know i've asked this before a few years ago... but for some reason i'm unable to find it anywhere using the search. I can't find it anywhere in the Wiki either.


What key(s) it is you press to activate poly lighting in 3d mode in mapster??

You need to type setrendermode 4 in the console if you haven't already set it in a mapster.cfg file. Then in 3D mode press ' and x to enable the lighting.

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 02 November 2020 - 03:07 PM, said:

Hmmm, I just made some small investigation on this thing using your truck from Poison Heart and my pickup, checking for different renderer modes and wall orientations. Your truck looks fine in classic and polymost, just gets messed up in polymer - and no matter the orientation of the wall texture (it just gets messed up in a different way). Curiously, the very same texture on my pickup doesn't get messed with polymer (but skybox goes off and indeed wall oriented sprites ornamented closely on walls glitch).

I think the problem is with polymer not rendering correctly tiles that have a dimension different than a power of 2. I've seen someone talking about it not long ago and showing a picture from HH cinema projector with WT renderer, which seems closest to polymer - and that it has been only recently fixed in Eduke. Also, there's this "jumping" thing with aligning of such textures when panning them in Mapster (I've usually noticed it with car textures as well, which are not power of 2).

Ah well, Polymer seems to be kind of a relict by now that isn't really being developed, so I'd rather focus on making it look good in classic and polymost.

Damn I really appreciate you taking the time to experiment with the phenomenon, you probably saved me a lot of time and trial and error, for me classic is the go-to so much I struggle to even keep track of what's what when it comes to the other renderers so, and which ones are still popular or not. Good to know I'm on the right track by not making Polymer a reference or I would have had quite a lot of stuff to rework, maybe I'll still become self-conscious about full compatibility enough to do just that later but now I wonder if it's even possible. It has to be since a lot of maps don't have that problem (I think?) so there has to be a determining factor somewhere that I don't know and can't think of.

[1337DirtAlliance]

Mark, on 02 November 2020 - 03:18 PM, said:

You need to type setrendermode 4 in the console if you haven't already set it in a mapster.cfg file. Then in 3D mode press ' and x to enable the lighting.

Sweet! Thank you!!

[William Gee]

For ending levels whats the difference between 65535 and 6969?

[Mark]

I never heard of using 6969. Where did you find that reference? I didn't see it in the wiki. Maybe 6969 was something Dan custom coded for the WGR series you have been working in.

[Aleks]

6969 doesn't seem to do anything in vanilla game. There's only 65535 and 65534 which spawns a message and may play a sound (like in E1L2) AFAIK.

[Sanek]

You know, despite that The Watchtower often tries to pose his own preferences as the features that every good vanilla 3DR-like map just got to have, I appreciate his opinions about stuff, really.
So I have a request of sorts:

I wonder if you (if you're reading this, Watchtower) can make a thread/list of a definitive features that every 3DR-styled (or whatever) map got to have in order the capture the expierence that the original maps have.
I know that it's been discussed billions of times in numerous post but it'd be cool to have the thread we all can refer to, in case we're lost.
Like, what kind of layout the maps need to have, the monsters/ammo ratio, the positioning of it all etc. It's obvious that you examined the original maps a lot, and some of this can be a good knowledge!
But don't push your own agenda, please. Just because Fernando made the episodes where every map is half-hour long and you don't like is your own problem.

[ck3D]

Since it's the base maps we're talking about, personally, I'd just strongly recommend that you replay the game or just go around them in Mapster and study their inner logic accordingly, Sanek. Pay attention to every design choice in detail, be it when it comes to 2D layout or general structure and effects, and you will develop a direct grasp of the general logic you're after that (I really think) will help you a lot more than a list of boxes to tick. And then from that point on, it doesn't matter how much personality you put into the level as long as those basics are covered, it will feel like Duke 3D. After all the posts on here recently, and given your experience with the game, I'm sure you have at least a few clues of which aspects to consider and study to achieve something like this already.

[Sanek]

@ck3D I certainly understand how to study the original game. I re-play the original maps a lot. While I understand certain kind of patterns that devs was going for, I have some trouble writing it all down in my head. You know, while you understand something but can't pinpoint exactly what it is.

[ck3D]

Ah I see. Well I'm not the person who asked but if you ever were to, I'd say consider scale (directly fitted to Duke's scale of in-game movement vs. 'realistic environments' and vent-sized doors), strongly contrasted shading (including triangular wall shadows), purposeful design (no decoration that doesn't serve the gameplay, even if it's just to be destroyed or operated), a focus on interconnections from place to place that would ideally make for a spicy DM arena, articulate use of (historically) Build-specific tricks such as SOS, destructible walls and some more visual aspects such as working/breakable lights, sense of location with just one central theme per map, care for and use of the vertical axis, and storytelling in the monster placement.

But I don't think you should try and make, say, a Levelord style map for the sake of making a Levelord style map. For one, I'd rather play a unique Sanek-styled level strong of the teachings from the original levels than what would be more of a direct carbon copy of those levels. No one but Levelord is Levelord and his style was his because it was his, you know? Make sure to let the substance inspire you, not just the form.

[MetHy]

Been looking into this subject for years so I'll share my thoughts.
These are general things I've seen when looking at Duke/Blood/SW/RR. It doesn't mean that every map follows every of these things, or that any one map has all of these things; also I could be wrong and exagerate some of these things without realizing.


- theme-centric map. One theme, one map. The theme can be anything, what makes a theme a "Build theme" isn't the type of theme itself but its treatment; either way stick to that one theme.
- the theme will be familiar to the player; but will be exploited in ways which he's less familiar with. Example: IRL you're in a supermarket, you see an employee enter a backdoor employee area and like a kid can't help but wonder what it's like in that area forbidden to the public. Build fullfills that innerchild curiosity by letting the player go there.
- there is a middle point to reach between realism and arcade game design; a map or game may lean more towards one or the other but must never lose sight of the two things. Realism doesn't necesarilly mean copying modern day life, Lunar Apocalypse is grounded in realism because some of the design cues are what people came to expect of futuristic space stations as seen in other mediums, and also because a lot of structures remain believeable. Don't be afraid to include senseless design elements amidst your realism as long as they're cool.
- There is a balance between outdoor/indoor areas. The simple way is: start outdoor and see the face of the building, clear it, and finish the map in another outdoor area of the building; but don't take that as a rule, it's just the most simple example. Use those outdoor environments so the player can get a mental picture of the scale of the level and help orient himself, but also to create awe-some looking views (not everything has to be LA Rumble of awesome; but even something like the prison court in Death Row falls in those categories). Play with heights and try to always have different floor levels, whether that includes SoS/RoR or not.
- Multiplayer. Not just DM but COOP also. If you have never played either, start there; witnessing how Build games coop throw balance out of the window in favour of sheer fun is a good lesson. Anyway, everyone knows that the interconnectedness should work in such way that the map works in DM, but remember scale also. Building scale under the assumption that 3 players are going to play the map at once is a good start.
- Choices for the player. Exploit that interconnectedness to create alt-paths for the player to choose or to backtrack with. This often goes hand in hand with the backdoor point above.
Choices also for the player as to how he wants to tackle gunfights, not only in terms of weaponry: think on the RPG at the start of E1L1, forget about "I put this one weapon before this fight next to this crate because I want the player to use this one weapon this one way for this fight", possibilities are nice but this should be one possibility among others, and placing a weapon before a fight as a clue that this possibility is there in essence isn't different from the gunplay design of mid 00's FPS with 2 weapons limits. Play Bankroll pistol start for instance, weapons are laid out a bit everywhere and it's up to the player to choose when and how he wants to use them, he used up all his Devastator ammo when opening the bank vault with the 2 BLords in them? Tough fucking luck, hopefully he'll smarten up next time.
But also choices in how to tackle that area geographically speaking, a good example would be the aisles inside the supermarket of Blood's E6M1, there are SO many ways to clear that room, every time I do it differently and every time it works. Blood's E2M1 is also a great example in that regard; but again this often falls back into the interconnectedness, like how you can enter an area from several sides; but not always.
- limit your enemy roster, to some extent. Think of how Freeway has no Commanders for instance.

On a more micro scale:
- For texturing forget everything usermaps taught you. All the textures should be used in their intended ways, one texture per wall, trimming is only for doors or for rare cases such as one area with 2 height level and the same texture, use trimming for the connection between the 2 heights so you can realign the upper floor. Limit your texture set also, create a thematic coherence with a few key textures, walls specifically. Keep the texture repeat values as close as possible to what you see in the original game (don't have wild repeat value differences between 2 textures close to each other, try to keep pixels square or close), but this isn't going to work well if the scale of your rooms aren't correct, scale and texturing should respect each others.
- Forget about 3D spritework also, except if they're made for things such as catwalks, or having a different floor/vents.
- Effects are important for dynamism and interactivty. Whether they're big effects or small effects, whether it's explosions or big machineries; always think of a few effects you will implement during the idea/blockout phase, and they can potentially take a central place in the map; but always use effects as intended, forget about trying to exploit an effect in an unintended way to create something new or not possible originally.
- For detailing I go back to what I said about middle point between realism and cool and not being afraid to include senseless design cues. Slopes have a major role in that, see for example the ceiling slope in the corridor leading to the toilets in E1L1, that shit makes absolutely no sense but it looks cool.

I'm probably forgetting a lot of stuff.
2 good usermap examples to look at would be Insurance Overlord by Conrad Coldwood and Legal Joint by Daedolon (Duke Hard). I'm not sure either map intended to make a "true classic style" map, and they do go beyond in some aspects, but also lack of the things I mentionned; but they're great examples to look at especially in terms of room scale and texturing. The texturing in those maps is so clean and solid. The architecture at the start of Insurance Overlord with the ceiling slopes also scream "classic".

Please note that using custom textures shouldn't be seen as a faux-pas as long as your new textures fit with the rest and serve the thematic purpose of your level. Insurance Overload proves that for me, even if his textures are a bit stylicized and some of them a bit "low res" for their use, they manage to fit and look like something that could have been in Duke It Out In DC.

edit: in terms of architecture, try to include diagonals, especially 45° ones, when you can, even just for the sake of looking cool but not only. This is true for layouts, shapes of rooms, but also smaller details.

[1337DirtAlliance]

How do you get a 3d model to not resize when you actually play the game. Because when i'm designing the map, i'm resizing the models to be the size it should be if it was 1:1. But then I play the game, and the models are fucking tiny lol or way to big.

Didn't find anything about sprites in the wiki. "/wiki/Basics_sprites"

[pavigna]

Hey, i've been having issues with elevators. i set it up correctly, but it goes up by a random amount, not reaching the next floor, and then goes back down to the starting point. i set it as elevator up, but i don't think that's the issue. Please help? let's say that the other floor is really high up, like skyscraper last floor up. Could the height be an issue?