[Jimmy]

Let's be honest here, the voxel pack is superior to the HRP and should in no way be gimped because of the outdated and poorly configured HRP.

[Borion]

bottle2 (955) & bottle3 (956)


EDIT:
I focus now on bottles & glasses, there are not many left.

Nightfright already uploaded ceramic rise cup & blue bottle13.

[NightFright]

HorseDongSub69, on 01 February 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:

Let's be honest here, the voxel pack is superior to the HRP and should in no way be gimped because of the outdated and poorly configured HRP.

Which is also why work on the HRP has effectively stopped and will most likely never resume again.

[Borion]

[OpenMaw]

Goddamn they're just so beautiful.

[Danukem]

HorseDongSub69, on 01 February 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:

Let's be honest here, the voxel pack is superior to the HRP and should in no way be gimped because of the outdated and poorly configured HRP.

But AFAIK, polymost (which everyone is using now since it got better) does not support voxels natively and they have to be converted to models at game start time. As the log reminds us:

Quote

Generating voxel models for Polymost. This may take a while...

Wouldn't it make more sense to convert all of the voxels into models offline and just use those instead? Startup time would be improved, they would look exactly the same, but then we would be able to change pitch and roll on the models which is useful for mods. The only downside would be the lack of palswap support, but there are ways around that.

[Jimmy]

I still kind of prefer Classic mode myself, but yes Polymost does look really good these days. Pretty sure fixing voxel support has been on the docket for sometime, as well.

Either way, working around broken behaviour to produce results is a bad way of future proofing things. If the HRP has bugs, they should be fixed there. You shouldn't introduce bugs to a separate addon.

[Radar]

I used polymost for about 6 months but I switched back to classic recently. I've also switched to Rednukem for playing the original game + standalone user maps because Evan says it is designed to emulate DOS 1.5 behavior. There will always be a place in my heart for the vanilla game.

[NightFright]

Voxel replacements for tiles #955-957 (bottle2-4) added to Github.

[Borion]

Jimmy, on 02 February 2020 - 05:41 PM, said:

Either way, working around broken behaviour to produce results is a bad way of future proofing things. If the HRP has bugs, they should be fixed there. You shouldn't introduce bugs to a separate addon.

I'm not as long here as most of you people, so I may don't get full picture, but would't it be better if we fork HRP maphacks for voxel pack? I mean can't we just adjust maphacks only in context of voxels and forget 3D replacements branch? Original HRP seem to be finished & closed project anyway, so why those projects are mixed? Do I miss something?

NightFright, on 01 February 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well, in that case someone has to do all the maphacks adjustments. It was easy when it was just about pickups.

Crazy amount of work. But with some help from community members, you think its doable in near future?

Striker, on 01 February 2020 - 04:38 PM, said:

BTW, the voxel for 556 should be applied to 557 as well. 557 is just the backside of the same chair.

Yes, but (my) current plan is to use 557 as rotated variation of 556 with slightly(!) different lighting. In game those two sprites are separate objects and as such are used by mappers. So it is nice occasion to put something extra without breaking anything and keep variation that is present in original sprites.

Trooper Dan, on 02 February 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

Startup time would be improved, they would look exactly the same, but then we would be able to change pitch and roll on the models which is useful for mods. The only downside would be the lack of palswap support, but there are ways around that.

In game each voxel is displayed not as cube, but as flat square plane that is always facing player. So I would not say that voxel models converted to textured meshes give same in-game look, far from it IMO.

[Danukem]

Borion, on 03 February 2020 - 01:38 AM, said:

In game each voxel is displayed not as cube, but as flat square plane that is always facing player.

I never noticed that, but now that you point it out it seems obvious.

Do voxels look the same in polymost as they do in software rendering?

[Micky C]

From my experience they look as Borion described in classic. However in polymost when they're converted to models, they're effectively drawn as cubes. So they do look different across the renderers.

[Radar]

Borion, on 03 February 2020 - 01:38 AM, said:

I'm not as long here as most of you people, so I may don't get full picture, but would't it be better if we fork HRP maphacks for voxel pack? I mean can't we just adjust maphacks only in context of voxels and forget 3D replacements branch? Original HRP seem to be finished & closed project anyway, so why those projects are mixed? Do I miss something?

I don't think anyone has an issue with basing the maphacks for the voxels off the HRP ones, since they save a lot of time and effort. What we mean is, the voxels should not be adjusted for botched pivots in the maphacks. Rather, the voxels should be designed properly and the maphacks corrected.

[Borion]

Radar 100 Watts, on 03 February 2020 - 08:28 AM, said:

I don't think anyone has an issue with basing the maphacks for the voxels off the HRP ones, since they save a lot of time and effort. What we mean is, the voxels should not be adjusted for botched pivots in the maphacks. Rather, the voxels should be designed properly and the maphacks corrected.

Thanks for explanation, now I got it.
Wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Borion]

Just finished lightdome (551-554)



EDIT:
those two signs are done too


By the way, 'San Andreas Fault' is used in "Abyss" as a wall texture, not a sprite object. So It doesn't show up on map as it is, probably needs some maphack magic.

[Danukem]

Borion, on 03 February 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

By the way, 'San Andreas Fault' is used in "Abyss" as a wall texture, not a sprite object. So It doesn't show up on map as it is, probably needs some maphack magic.

Maphacks can spawn sprites into the game?

Also the alarm light is awesome.

[NightFright]

I think maphacks can't magically turn textures into sprites, unless I underestimate their capabilities.

[Striker]

Borion, on 03 February 2020 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yes, but (my) current plan is to use 557 as rotated variation of 556 with slightly(!) different lighting. In game those two sprites are separate objects and as such are used by mappers. So it is nice occasion to put something extra without breaking anything and keep variation that is present in original sprites.

They're two angles of the same object, however. Rotation should be kept the the same, IMHO. I can't speak for others, but I instinctually set the angle of the chair object to the direction I want the chair to be facing, and use the front-facing, or rear-facing version depending on what angle it's most likely to be viewed at. The HRP also uses the same model and rotation for it as well.

Changing the lighting might be cool though, but that's as far as I'd take it, personally.

[Borion]

-double post, sorry-

[Borion]

Trooper Dan, on 03 February 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:

Maphacks can spawn sprites into the game?

I thought they can, joke is on me

NightFright, on 03 February 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

I think maphacks can't magically turn textures into sprites, unless I underestimate their capabilities.

Classy mockery, nice one

Striker, on 03 February 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

They're two angles of the same object, however. Rotation should be kept the the same, IMHO. I can't speak for others, but I instinctually set the angle of the chair object to the direction I want the chair to be facing, and use the front-facing, or rear-facing version depending on what angle it's most likely to be viewed at. The HRP also uses the same model and rotation for it as well.

Changing the lighting might be cool though, but that's as far as I'd take it, personally.

I see your point, Striker.

[NightFright]

All new voxels uploaded to Github.

[Fox]

Borion, on 03 February 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

By the way, 'San Andreas Fault' is used in "Abyss" as a wall texture, not a sprite object. So It doesn't show up on map as it is, probably needs some maphack magic.

IMHO you are going in the wrong direction with these sprites (including the "E pluribus, Nukem")

Even if they are used as wall aligned sprites, you will get an inconsistent look

Compare to this image:



Except in your case you are kinda of making only portions of the walls as voxels

You get the idea

[Phredreeke]

Could be cool as an alternative to bump mapping, if Borion is crazy enough to go through the whole tileset to do so XD

[NNC]

Mostly new to the party, so forgive my n00bish questions here:

How many sprites are left to "voxelize" or in other words will there ever be a more or less final version?
Will actors be voxelized too, or just the easier ones (ie. turrets, drones, eggs)?
Can this voxelpack work with the upscale pack? If so, that - along with Polymer's dynamic lights and normal mapping - can be the definitive edition of the game.
Is this pack compatible with WT or just EDuke32?
As for maphacks, just a side question: will the maphacks fix the other issues of the stock levels (we listed some of those tagging errors and unused R sprites back then)?

I guess most of these had been answered already, but I rarely watched this thread, so please forgive for them.

[Mark]

IIRC, Polymer doesn't do voxels.

[Fox]

The Watchtower, on 04 February 2020 - 04:49 AM, said:

Will actors be voxelized too, or just the easier ones (ie. turrets, drones, eggs)?

That would be a lot of work

The 3D Realms tests don't look very good



Perhaps they would look better using the actual sprites as a reference, but the lighting a serious issue

The sprites are rendered with what appear to be lights above and in front of the character. However the lights rotate along with the game, so the lighting change depending of the angle.

Example:



Note how in the second frame, one of the arms cast a shadow on the leg. And in the third frame, it casts a shadow on the other leg.

[Borion]

Phredreeke, on 04 February 2020 - 04:26 AM, said:

Could be cool as an alternative to bump mapping, if Borion is crazy enough to go through the whole tileset to do so XD

I'm too sane for that, man. Don't count on it

Fox, on 04 February 2020 - 04:06 AM, said:

IMHO you are going in the wrong direction with these sprites (including the "E pluribus, Nukem")

Even if they are used as wall aligned sprites, you will get an inconsistent look

Compare to this image:



Except in your case you are kinda of making only portions of the walls as voxels

You get the idea

I think you blow it out of proportions a little, Fox I know those odd Doom experiments and it looks nothing like it in game.
3 voxels of thickness is just enough to give i.e. "E pluribus, Nukem" and those other bronze objects a little bit of definition that their lighting suggest. You wont even notice it until you look at it from sharp angle. Please take a look on Pigsty or Bank Roll.
I plan to make only ONE more model like those, large EDF logo. So im not going any direction with those. I'm not into embossed wallpapers, chill

And if we talk about stuff like bumpmapping, IMHO it sucks because it tries to "elevate" bumps, make them stick out of walls. There is some algorithm - I forgot name - that use b&w bumpmap to create paralax-like effect adding depth illusion when you move but not causing any of above problems. I'll try to dig up yt link to clip showing this effect, just as curiosity that you might find entertaining.

Cheers

[Jimmy]

Fox, on 04 February 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:

That would be a lot of work

The 3D Realms tests don't look very good



Perhaps they would look better using the actual sprites as a reference, but the lighting a serious issue

The sprites are rendered with what appear to be lights above and in front of the character. However the lights rotate along with the game, so the lighting change depending of the angle.

Example:



Note how in the second frame, one of the arms cast a shadow on the leg. And in the third frame, it casts a shadow on the other leg.

What you're describing is the ancient artistic practice of "upper left" one source lighting. Almost every asset in Duke Nukem 3D and Doom follows this rule that all the great paintings of antiquity did. It's why these games have a more consistent look than some of their cheaper counterparts.

One of the reasons the 3DR test enemy voxels don't look good is because there is no or very little lighting/shading applied. What you don't see is that they'd look even worse with lighting/shading baked in because they're not static objects. If Polymer supported voxels in the future maybe then you could theoretically attach a light source up and to the left in relation to the player that could emulate the same painted quality, but even that could have issues or just ultimately still not look good. There is a reason most games use voxels for objects or terrain. The only one I can think of where everything is a voxel would be Voxelstein and the art style is perfect for that because it's so flat and cartoony.

[Phredreeke]

The Watchtower, on 04 February 2020 - 04:49 AM, said:

Can this voxelpack work with the upscale pack?

Yes, and voxels will override any sprites in the upscale pack

(this is actually the reason weapon sprites doesn't have upscales, as I prefer the voxels of those)

[Striker]

Trooper Dan, on 03 February 2020 - 10:51 AM, said:

Maphacks can spawn sprites into the game?

Nope.

Being able to place non-interactive sprites (using tsprites perhaps) with maphacks would be hella useful as a new feature I think. Maybe someday.

Jimmy, on 04 February 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

What you're describing is the ancient artistic practice of "upper left" one source lighting. Almost every asset in Duke Nukem 3D and Doom follows this rule that all the great paintings of antiquity did. It's why these games have a more consistent look than some of their cheaper counterparts.

One of the reasons the 3DR test enemy voxels don't look good is because there is no or very little lighting/shading applied. What you don't see is that they'd look even worse with lighting/shading baked in because they're not static objects. If Polymer supported voxels in the future maybe then you could theoretically attach a light source up and to the left in relation to the player that could emulate the same painted quality, but even that could have issues or just ultimately still not look good. There is a reason most games use voxels for objects or terrain. The only one I can think of where everything is a voxel would be Voxelstein and the art style is perfect for that because it's so flat and cartoony.

If the Sentry Drone voxel is anything to go by, I imagine it could be made to look pretty decent if plenty of care went into it.