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DNF #1
Duke 3D #1
The Wolf beta is real,
The Supreme Topic of Miscellaneous Knowledge "Trivia, Research, etc."
#621 Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:04 AM
Moose Man, on 13 August 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:
The Wolf beta is real,
I didn't doubt the authenticity of the uploads per se, rather that the guy actually uploaded something that wasn't already known (the file hosting server he uses doesn't work with my browser so I can't check the files, and the screen shots he provided are way off). Unless the Wolfenstein 3-D alpha that user posted has unmodified files with original date stamps (because the widely know alpha has modified files thanks to some wiseguy), there's nothing new about it.
Just in case, here's a list of all known pre-release leaks of Apogee titles (the page itself is down though, and the archived copy doesn't have the files):
http://vo-noobs.com/apogee/
#622 Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:20 PM
Just a quick note about BetaArchive: The place's game section is pretty much run by teenage kids trying to look cool by posting BAETAS, irregardless of if the content is actually real or not or has been posted a million times or not. You should take a majority of information on that site with a huge grain of salt. The only really trustworthy topic on there anymore are the Unreal 1 prototype topic.
This post has been edited by MYHOUSE.MAP: 14 August 2013 - 12:20 PM
- Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
-
#623 Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:05 PM
I just want to point out that at the left of this picture you can see part of the fire station (or whatever it is) from 0.99, which somehow is rotated at 90º from what we see in this video.
#624 Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:19 PM
Not sure if this scan is any use for you guys, but I think the pigcop shot on the top is unique?
That model looks really f'cked up... Taken from Computer Gaming World, issue 138 (January 1996), part of three-page ad
That model looks really f'cked up... Taken from Computer Gaming World, issue 138 (January 1996), part of three-page ad
- Let's go Brandon!
-
#625 Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:27 PM
Fox, that area is just a parking garage.
Crypt, that's just the early Pig Cop model from like '95. You see it in a few other screenshots, like this one.
Crypt, that's just the early Pig Cop model from like '95. You see it in a few other screenshots, like this one.
#626 Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:45 PM
Yeah, I know that. It just looks horrible in this shot. What is this pigcop even supposed to do in this pose?
Also I was wondering if some beta assets are lying in that Legend of 7 Paladins grp file. Anyone poked in here?
Also I was wondering if some beta assets are lying in that Legend of 7 Paladins grp file. Anyone poked in here?
- Let's go Brandon!
-
#627 Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:56 PM
It just looks like he's jumping out of the way of the explosion. Like many other dropped features, they probably couldn't get it to work out.
Last time I looked in Lot7P it appeared to all be original content made for Lot7P.
Last time I looked in Lot7P it appeared to all be original content made for Lot7P.
#628 Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:06 PM
Looking through Lameduke's files, I suspect that Episodes 2 and 3 were already abandoned or were being abandoned when the prototype was produced. Most of Episode 3's levels were last altered in the middle of November, while the prototype was compiled on either December 30th, 1994 or January 3rd, 1995 (the date that appears when you boot it up). The “newest” of the E3 maps is E2L2, which was last edited on December 6th.
Most of Episode 2's levels were last edited on November 10th, which is close to two months before the prototype was compiled. The only exceptions to this are E2L8, which was last edited on June 2nd, and E2L6 and E2L7, which were edited on January 1st, 1995.
Based on this, my view is that the developers had or were in the process of abandoning the concepts seen in Episodes 2 and 3 (such as the aliens having an underwater base) in favor of Duke3D's style, which is represented in LD's E1. Episode 2's city levels feel a lot more primitive and lighter than the E1L6, which is a lot closer to the style used in the final game's city levels. E2's textures are brighter and seem to be taken from photos (barring some exceptions, like the gas station sign and the nuclear reactor doors), while E1L6's textures look hand drawn and are darker than E2's. E2 also has more primitive level design compared to E1. There are some things like cameras and subways, but they aren't used nearly as often as in E1. E2 also has extra level details, such as run-down apartment buildings and garages you can enter, that don't appear in E1 or the final game. My guess is that E2 was the developers experimenting with more-open city levels with details like apartments you can enter, but canning it in favor of making city levels more focused around one or two specific areas.
E3 also feels like it came from a different point in development that was being abandoned when the prototype was complied. It also uses the brighter texture style seen in E2 and has level design that's more primitive than LD's E1 or the final game. With a handful of exceptions, the levels are static and lack the features that make DN3D's levels what they are. Some of the levels feel like barebones concepts than full-fledged levels, like E1 and parts of E2 do.
The “last modified “ dates for E2 and E3, along with the different style in them, suggest to me that they were made in an earlier stage of development, possibly when the devs were first starting to seriously work with Build and see what they could do with it. My belief is that Lameduke consists of two different stages of development mashed into one prototype. The first one, which is represented by E1 and E4, is a rough version of what would become Duke 3D and what the developers were working on when the prototype was compiled. E2 and E3 are from an earlier experimental stage, where they wanted city levels with some optional areas the player could access for the hell of it and make the aliens have an underwater base. However, they didn’t have a full grasp on what they could do with Build when those episodes were made, so the levels are more primitive than what's seen in E1, E4 and the final game. Based on all of the “gritty” graffiti and shit on some of the city textures, they wanted to make the game like the final one from the start, but E2 and E3 were earlier takes on the concept. E1 is when they finally got a grasp on what they wanted.
Think about it; every pre-release DN3D screenshot has a style similar to the final game, not LD's E2 and E3. No pre-release material shows the underwater base seen in E3. All of the city levels seen in preview shots show tall, DN3D and LD E1L6-style buildings, not the small buildings you see in most of LD's E2. Heck, skyboxs similar to the ones seen in LD's E1 and E4 appear in quite a few screenshots, but neither fixed nor broken version of LD's E2 and E3 skybox appears in screenshots. If we didn't have LD, there would be no evidence of the underwater areas existing. That tells me that the idea was long abandoned before they started releasing screenshots.
I don't have any design docs or anything that prove that E2 and E3 are from an earlier stage of development, but looking at the “last modified” dates for them and how they look compared to the final game, I think it's clear that E2 and E3 were abandoned or were in the process of being abandonded by the time the prototype was compiled.
Most of Episode 2's levels were last edited on November 10th, which is close to two months before the prototype was compiled. The only exceptions to this are E2L8, which was last edited on June 2nd, and E2L6 and E2L7, which were edited on January 1st, 1995.
Based on this, my view is that the developers had or were in the process of abandoning the concepts seen in Episodes 2 and 3 (such as the aliens having an underwater base) in favor of Duke3D's style, which is represented in LD's E1. Episode 2's city levels feel a lot more primitive and lighter than the E1L6, which is a lot closer to the style used in the final game's city levels. E2's textures are brighter and seem to be taken from photos (barring some exceptions, like the gas station sign and the nuclear reactor doors), while E1L6's textures look hand drawn and are darker than E2's. E2 also has more primitive level design compared to E1. There are some things like cameras and subways, but they aren't used nearly as often as in E1. E2 also has extra level details, such as run-down apartment buildings and garages you can enter, that don't appear in E1 or the final game. My guess is that E2 was the developers experimenting with more-open city levels with details like apartments you can enter, but canning it in favor of making city levels more focused around one or two specific areas.
E3 also feels like it came from a different point in development that was being abandoned when the prototype was complied. It also uses the brighter texture style seen in E2 and has level design that's more primitive than LD's E1 or the final game. With a handful of exceptions, the levels are static and lack the features that make DN3D's levels what they are. Some of the levels feel like barebones concepts than full-fledged levels, like E1 and parts of E2 do.
The “last modified “ dates for E2 and E3, along with the different style in them, suggest to me that they were made in an earlier stage of development, possibly when the devs were first starting to seriously work with Build and see what they could do with it. My belief is that Lameduke consists of two different stages of development mashed into one prototype. The first one, which is represented by E1 and E4, is a rough version of what would become Duke 3D and what the developers were working on when the prototype was compiled. E2 and E3 are from an earlier experimental stage, where they wanted city levels with some optional areas the player could access for the hell of it and make the aliens have an underwater base. However, they didn’t have a full grasp on what they could do with Build when those episodes were made, so the levels are more primitive than what's seen in E1, E4 and the final game. Based on all of the “gritty” graffiti and shit on some of the city textures, they wanted to make the game like the final one from the start, but E2 and E3 were earlier takes on the concept. E1 is when they finally got a grasp on what they wanted.
Think about it; every pre-release DN3D screenshot has a style similar to the final game, not LD's E2 and E3. No pre-release material shows the underwater base seen in E3. All of the city levels seen in preview shots show tall, DN3D and LD E1L6-style buildings, not the small buildings you see in most of LD's E2. Heck, skyboxs similar to the ones seen in LD's E1 and E4 appear in quite a few screenshots, but neither fixed nor broken version of LD's E2 and E3 skybox appears in screenshots. If we didn't have LD, there would be no evidence of the underwater areas existing. That tells me that the idea was long abandoned before they started releasing screenshots.
I don't have any design docs or anything that prove that E2 and E3 are from an earlier stage of development, but looking at the “last modified” dates for them and how they look compared to the final game, I think it's clear that E2 and E3 were abandoned or were in the process of being abandonded by the time the prototype was compiled.
This post has been edited by MYHOUSE.MAP: 15 August 2013 - 05:05 PM
#631 Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:23 AM
Jimmy, on 15 August 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:
Last time I looked in Lot7P it appeared to all be original content made for Lot7P.
It was, even it never "got finished" at all and just pulled out to TW/HK markets as its unfinished, "buggy as hell" state...that was just bad but in that time, when not too much players knows about ROTT/DN3D or even FPS games in those markets...
Oh, I remembered MARS, the DooM 1 clone(hacked/modified DooM 1 reg. version) had same problems, but nearly nobody knew this game ever...
(ROTT Classic and DN3D both had the same publisher in TW/HK, the maker of Lot7P.)
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 16 August 2013 - 07:27 AM
#632 Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:25 AM
CryptKiller, on 16 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:
Another ad from CGW:
Wow, what a fabulous looking promotional material for Shadow Warrior. Not often we get to see any, so this got me very curious. Could you tell us your sources? Or do you have more forgotten/little known advertisings for Build games? Specifically this advertisiment is from what year?(Sorry, had to use that image in qoutation again, it doesnt deserve to get hidden after only one reply.
)
- el fundador
-
#633 Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:31 AM
That one is pretty cool. That was originally going to be the box art for SW, but it was rejected for some reason or another... maybe because it more closely depicts the earlier version of the game shown in those screenshots than it does the final game.
- Let's go Brandon!
-
#634 Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:37 AM
Yeah, it appears that the Zilla storyline got jammed in there near the end of the development cycle. The Serpent God was supposed to be the original boss it seems to me.
#635 Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:09 AM
Jimmy, on 16 August 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:
Yeah, it appears that the Zilla storyline got jammed in there near the end of the development cycle. The Serpent God was supposed to be the original boss it seems to me.
Dont have source for this claim, but I read somewhere at this forum some time ago, that original plot was you being genetically altered superhuman ninja fighting some cult on island which is attempting to aweken demonic forces. I am actually glad they scrapped it for mission of vengeance against Zilla.
EDIT: BTW I noticed that searching for alpha/beta info of SW got much more complicated after reboot was announced.
This post has been edited by t800: 16 August 2013 - 10:19 AM
#636 Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:49 AM
t800, on 16 August 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:
Dont have source for this claim, but I read somewhere at this forum some time ago, that original plot was you being genetically altered superhuman ninja fighting some cult on island which is attempting to aweken demonic forces. I am actually glad they scrapped it for mission of vengeance against Zilla.
http://web.archive.o...com/catalog/sw/
Quote
You are a member of a secret Japanese mercenary team, trained in the use of several exotic weapons and in the stealth arts of the ninja. Your body has been augmented with state of the art nano-tech biomedical enhancements. Your senses, strength, agility, and stamina are greatly boosted. You are a lethal weapon.
The mage Kirin, your ancient ancestor of 1000 years, has risen from the dead on a remote island, given life once again by forces not understood today. Kirin now has an army of cult followers spread over many small islands to do his bidding. Some were once human... some never were.
If they are not stopped, evil will spread across the planet. It is your task to stop the Kirin and his army.
When hi-tech meets magic-tech... gibs fly!
The mage Kirin, your ancient ancestor of 1000 years, has risen from the dead on a remote island, given life once again by forces not understood today. Kirin now has an army of cult followers spread over many small islands to do his bidding. Some were once human... some never were.
If they are not stopped, evil will spread across the planet. It is your task to stop the Kirin and his army.
When hi-tech meets magic-tech... gibs fly!
#637 Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:05 AM
edit [meh]
This post has been edited by Kathy: 16 August 2013 - 11:09 AM
#638 Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:42 AM
t800, on 16 August 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:
Could you tell us your sources? Or do you have more forgotten/little known advertisings for Build games? Specifically this advertisiment is from what year?
Glad you liked it! Sadly, I don't have any more, and this one I found in issue #140 (March 1996) of Computer Gaming World. In same issue there's also four pages big Duke3D ad which part of I've posted earlier.
I'm mowing through my collection of scanned magazines from the 1995-1996 (UK, US and Polish ones), looking for ads or previews of Build games. If I'll find anything remotely interesting, will post it here.
[edit]
Thought to myself: "Huh, I wonder if there were some ads for Powerslave or Exhumed". Lo and behold, in very next issue of CGW (April 1996):
I've cropped the most interesting for us thing - screenshots! Sadly they look a bit crap and not that different from released version:
This post has been edited by CryptKiller: 16 August 2013 - 11:52 AM
#639 Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:31 PM
These are amazing, thanks for posting them That SW artwork is very cool, but ultimately looking at it makes me think more of Witchaven and Capstone games rather than a 3DRealms one, so they went with the right decision to change the boxart to Lo Wang and a Guardian. Too bad we never got a LameShadowWarrior, seeing an early beta version would be really really cool.
Also the proportions on that Powerslave dude are proper fucked, the finished artwork is way cooler (but it's interesting to see regardless though)
That SW artwork is very cool, but ultimately looking at it makes me think more of Witchaven and Capstone games rather than a 3DRealms one, so they went with the right decision to change the boxart to Lo Wang and a Guardian. Too bad we never got a LameShadowWarrior, seeing an early beta version would be really really cool.Also the proportions on that Powerslave dude are proper fucked, the finished artwork is way cooler (but it's interesting to see regardless though)
This post has been edited by James: 16 August 2013 - 12:32 PM
#640 Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:52 PM
James, on 16 August 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:
Also the proportions on that Powerslave dude are proper fucked
Haha, yeah, the Powerslaver is a pro tennis player. Or so he tells everyone.
Just found an older variation of that 4-page-long Duke3D ad, in CGW November 1995, issue #136. Here we go with the interesting stuff!
Interesting there's no Duke in this ad! Maybe the iconic image wasn't done at this point? Also I think one of the shots below is new?
(the not posted 2 pages of this ad are the Nuke emblem and some marketing yada-yada about engine etc. may post it later if anyone cares)
Also, remember that page which I posted yesterday? It's also in this variation, but screens are moved and one is replaced with this:
Similar to the later one, it's nearly the same scene, but done bit differently (mainly the plasma gun). Huh.
This post has been edited by CryptKiller: 16 August 2013 - 12:53 PM
- Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
-
#641 Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:58 PM
What I find more interesting is that they updated the enemy sprites in the picture on the left:
#642 Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:00 PM
So it seems some of the scenes were recreated for screenshot purposes on different builds of the game. I wonder why not just make new ones, but take additional effort to remake those screens? Mysteries, mysteries...
#643 Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:07 PM
Depends. There are plenty of playable areas (even maps sometimes) that got scrapped in post-LameDuke development.
#644 Posted 16 August 2013 - 05:35 PM
It's not like screenshots haven't been reused and remade in pre-release screenshots before...
- el fundador
-
#646 Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:19 PM
Looks like the crouching Duke in that last shot still has knee pads, but the standing green Duke up on the catwalk doesn't.
#647 Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:51 PM
I'm sure that some people have noticed this before, but some of the dead and tortured NPC sprites seen in the final version of Shadow Warrior are based on beta designs for enemies.
Look at these sprites:
All of these are based on the beta, pre-Chuck Jones Coolie sprite seen here:
Both the NPCs and the old Coolie design have the same art style and share a lot of details, such as their shirt color and hat design.
This half-dead NPC:
is based on this design for the enemy ninjas:
Notice that they both have a blue vest, a V shape on their head and wristbands. The sprites aren't exactly the same, but they're so close I think the half-dead NPC is a touched up enemy ninja sprite.
One more thing. Look at this guy:
Not much right? However, if you compare him with the old enemy ninja design...
They both have a V shape on their head. I suspect this was based on the old enemy ninja sprite as well. Perhaps it was an earlier design that was never shown in screenshots?
All of this means that, technically, some of the old enemy designs seen in beta screenshots were never removed from the final game.
Look at these sprites:
All of these are based on the beta, pre-Chuck Jones Coolie sprite seen here:
Both the NPCs and the old Coolie design have the same art style and share a lot of details, such as their shirt color and hat design.
This half-dead NPC:
is based on this design for the enemy ninjas:
Notice that they both have a blue vest, a V shape on their head and wristbands. The sprites aren't exactly the same, but they're so close I think the half-dead NPC is a touched up enemy ninja sprite.
One more thing. Look at this guy:
Not much right? However, if you compare him with the old enemy ninja design...
They both have a V shape on their head. I suspect this was based on the old enemy ninja sprite as well. Perhaps it was an earlier design that was never shown in screenshots?
All of this means that, technically, some of the old enemy designs seen in beta screenshots were never removed from the final game.
- Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
-
#649 Posted 17 August 2013 - 06:40 AM
MYHOUSE.MAP, on 16 August 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:
It's not like screenshots haven't been reused and remade in pre-release screenshots before...
Spoiler
Also:
