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A Call to Action: An open and direct discussion about the possibility of starting a community driven project  "Hear me out..."

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#61

I've been in this community for over 20 years. (I cringe saying that, yikes.) Things have been way worse in the past. New people are showing up all the time, especially a lot of old timers. I would suggest against trying to corral people, they will congregate where they want. There used to be many more websites and groups than there are now. Some people don't like joining forums, some people only wanna be on Reddit, some people only wanna be on Discord, some weirdos might just wanna be on Facebook. It is what it is. Let people know about Duke4, for sure, but hey they're gonna do what they wanna do. What you're seeing is the fact that for a couple years before Ion Fury, EDuke32 was basically the only port, and it really had some problems that I think made people reticent to make big mods, maps might have slowed a little bit but the quality maps have been consistent. Alien Armageddon and WGR2 are part of a resurgence in interest, granted you kinda got one project leader involved in both there. But if you look at Ion Fury's crew, they were some of the biggest Duke modders around, and the DLC is incoming now too. Some of those same people are now involved with Deadly Kiss. So I think really, you just have some of your most experienced people doing more professional, long term work. Duke's community has never been larger than Doom's, but we've been much smaller in the past. Doom's community is in a weird spot itself right now. As for other BUILD games, I don't really know if there are that many people who aren't already here, or know about this place and they don't want to be here. And Raze is just another port. I don't really think their team is dedicated enough to destroy EDuke32, and competition is great. I wish them well, but it looks like they've already hit some major brick walls that JFDuke/Eduke32 already figured out years ago. I don't think there's any reason to panic, things are going well.

EDIT: Although this reminded me of something that I meant to bring up a while ago, whatever happened to DukeSpana? They had a large community and some unique projects came out of there, then a couple months ago I noticed it was gone and it's still gone.

This post has been edited by Jimmy: 22 October 2020 - 10:10 PM

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User is offline   Aristotle Gumball 

  • banned!

#62

I think there are these long term projects here, but it seems that somehow less people are aware of them. I notice there are map packs released more often for Quake and Blood by much smaller communities. Frequency helps with visibility.

And I don't mean to dig up old dirt, but Duke4's reputation might take a while to recover given what some people think about it. Y'know, someone might come, see the F word being used in general gaming and decide this wasn't their kind of place. The whole IF censorship debacle didn't help matters.

You'd think there would be more frequent Duke content despite all that since the fan-base is larger, but I guess not?

In spirit I agree with you jkas789, but my advice to you is: be the change you want to see in the world. Reach out to those other communities/individuals and try to get them involved, since you seem passionate about it. No one's stopping you.

Very generally (without pointing a finger at anyone), I also want to say that conservatives are less creative than liberals....on average. Take that to mean what you will.
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User is offline   Aleks 

#63

Considering the idea behind this project moved from "the ultimate Duke mod for 25th anniversary" to something aiming more at community bonding, I'd suggest you guys should keep this project to the size of an episode (8-12 maps maybe), perhaps without too much new art (unless Pavigna wants to help with it) and coding. In fact it would be interesting to see this done mostly by first-timers who are just starting with Build - and probably this would also work the best for its purpose of preserving the community. Jkas, Ninety-Six, Pavigna... Me and ck3D have been also trying to encourage RunningDuke to make some maps as well in another thread and I would definitely love to see a map made by The Watchtower!

Just I think it's better to go for original creative ideas (Jkas pretty much had the whole scenario for an episode drawn out a couple posts earlier with that Arizona thing - it could work well even without new/WT textures as Duke has plenty of country/desert/canyon tiles that work well with hi-tech alien stuff). Lameduke and betas are cool, but that's mostly because they're betas with all their faults. I know it's mainly nostalgia that pushes us towards that stuff (same goes for "shovelware" quality or complete newbie maps from circa 96), but milking that cow too much is not a good idea either, as re-creating nostalgia often results in all the magic being lost.
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User is offline   Perro Seco 

#64

View PostJimmy, on 22 October 2020 - 03:16 PM, said:

Do it then.
I've already adapted L6 as a level for my TC, but I don't have time to re-adapt it into Duke 3D because my TC means all my free time.

View PostJimmy, on 22 October 2020 - 03:16 PM, said:

The answer is "never." Unless some brave/stupid soul ends up saying "Fuck it." and leaks it all. Gearbox will never release this stuff. It's time to give up.
Hehe, I don't understand what this platitude is trying to convey either, since I've never asked nobody about releasing anything. The only things I do are saving screenshots, sprites, magazine scans, rare videos about different beta versions, some unused MIDIs, Lee Jackson's stories and inspirations behind his songs (including the rejected ones), etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

View PostJimmy, on 22 October 2020 - 09:26 PM, said:

EDIT: Although this reminded me of something that I meant to bring up a while ago, whatever happened to DukeSpana? They had a large community and some unique projects came out of there, then a couple months ago I noticed it was gone and it's still gone.
Duke España closed because admins didn't have time to maintain it, but it still can be accessed on the Internet Archive. There are some useful tutorials in the forums, like how to create your own weapons, how to make them switchable like the shrinker/expander or how to create your own HUD.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#65

View PostPerro Seco, on 23 October 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

I've already adapted L6 as a level for my TC, but I don't have time to re-adapt it into Duke 3D because my TC means all my free time.


TC is looking super good, I remember you posting a screenshot from one of those locations on your ModDB page (or a similar one) before but only just now realized that you're working on something this ambitious. I almost never make time for playing TC's but I'll definitely be checking this one out, it's looking pretty unique, best of luck with it.

Shame to hear about Duke España, 2020 has been a heavy year for good Duke sites with first Dukemaps going down and now this.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 23 October 2020 - 04:12 AM

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User is offline   jkas789 

#66

Ever get the feeling of having the best sleep of your life and wanting to continue but having to wake up for work ruins it for you? I'm there now.

To Jimmy and Cartaphallus, I'll take your comments into consideration. I personally don't think that Raze is a bad thing. If anything having more than one dominant software on a niche is always a good thing. Competition and necesity is the mother of invention.

Quote

And I don't mean to dig up old dirt, but Duke4's reputation might take a while to recover given what some people think about it. Y'know, someone might come, see the F word being used in general gaming and decide this wasn't their kind of place. The whole IF censorship debacle didn't help matters.

You'd think there would be more frequent Duke content despite all that since the fan-base is larger, but I guess not?


I partially disagree on that. I like the fact that the word fuck can be used on general gaming. I like the fact that on this community you and everyone can butt head and have strong opinions about things Cartaphallus. Freespeech on the internet is a dying breed dude.


Quote

Very generally (without pointing a finger at anyone), I also want to say that conservatives are less creative than liberals....on average. Take that to mean what you will.


Nobody brought politics into this mate. So please be kind and don't. Besides half the worlds literature was brought by what by today's standards would be conservative people.


Anyways I have to go make some people's life miserable so i'll see you all later.

This post has been edited by jkas789: 23 October 2020 - 06:01 AM

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User is offline   Aristotle Gumball 

  • banned!

#67

View Postjkas789, on 23 October 2020 - 06:00 AM, said:

Nobody brought politics into this mate. So please be kind and don't.


You misunderstand me. I'm saying this forum, which leans right (although I no longer think it's QUITE as bad as I may have said in the past), probably attracted people who are less creative, since on average that appears to be the case with conservatives. I am not here to disparage anyone, but there is a genetic basis for belief systems that actually stretches beyond who people will vote for, being represented by measurable mental traits. Jordan Peterson talks about how you need the liberals to start companies and the conservatives to run them (and you really do NEED them!). So him and I use these words less politically and more in terms of denoting the aforementioned mental traits.

View Postjkas789, on 23 October 2020 - 06:00 AM, said:

Besides half the worlds literature was brought by what by today's standards would be conservative people.


Yes, by today's standards and not the standards of their time. This is key.

Anyway, it was a minor point, but I just wanted to clarify. Not trying to pick a fight.

Oh yeah, and I didn't mean the word fuck. I'll say fuck all day on here.

This post has been edited by Cartaphallus: 23 October 2020 - 06:44 AM

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User is offline   jkas789 

#68

Ah then sorry mate. I jumped the gun.

(Also I just can't not keep this to myself but in helping an intern I have sewed the most beautiful ear I have ever seen. To be more specific the result of my sewing was the beautiful thing. Not the original ear.)
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #69

This thread started as an ideas thread, from a user relatively new to the community. We don't like ideas threads around here. They usually play out as this one has. Most of the strong affirmative posts are from other noobs, and thanks to that, discussion immediately degenerated into "beta is betta" levels of amateur thinking.

View Postjkas789, on 22 October 2020 - 09:01 PM, said:

Reddit, different forums, facebook groups. The community is so scattered that nobody can fucking communicate (Heck is there even an interest to communicate?). And because there is no communication, ideas remain the same, level design conceptions remain the same and the community keeps churning the same things time after time after time stagnating along the way. This can't keep going. If things goes like this the Duke nukem franchise along with what little there is of Classic Shadow Warrior and yes, I'm even chucking Blood in with both of them as well will die out organically. Does a modder mods even matter if nobody apart of himself plays his mods?

I think you misunderstand something. We're not lacking talent on Duke4, and a sudden influx of new noobs is not all that valuable. You've been here 3 months but you're already saying that we're "stagnating"? You've never made a level but you say "ideas remain the same"?

We're a community centered around a game from 25 years ago. Appreciation of classic content does not follow the sharp upward trend lines you expect from fads, except after something new debuts and brings in new attention. Classic things don't rise drastically, but they also don't fall drastically. They stay consistent, perhaps with long-term growth.

An example:

Quote

Posted Image


"I've never worked on a game [or mod] before" means their application goes into the circular file. "Interest" is not all that important if they have no experience.

If they want to join the community, that's great. If they want to start modding on their own, making their own project or maybe just a portfolio, even better. But for "a 25th anniversary ultimate edition community mod" they're not going to be able to help on the level truly necessary.
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User is offline   Sanek 

#70

There isn't going to be a community episode of any type, apparently. Even if we'll make one, I doubt that we'd be satisfied.

I think that we can pull of at least one CBP8-scaled user map, presumably done in a classic style. I have a sort of a "pipeline" that I initially wanted to use for my Doom-like idea, but which can be easily applied to a regular Duke map.

The best thing that we by all means can do is just keep working on our personal projects and make'em so good that we all would be proud of it.

This post has been edited by Sanek: 23 October 2020 - 08:28 AM

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#71

View PostHendricks266, on 23 October 2020 - 07:29 AM, said:

This thread started as an ideas thread, from a user relatively new to the community. We don't like ideas threads around here. They usually play out as this one has. Most of the strong affirmative posts are from other noobs, and thanks to that discussion immediately degenerated into "beta is betta" levels of amateur thinking.


I think you misunderstand something. We're not lacking talent on Duke4, and a sudden influx of new noobs is not all that valuable. You've been here 3 months but you're already saying that we're "stagnating"? We're a community centered around a game from 25 years ago. Appreciation of classic content does not follow the sharp upward trend lines you expect from fads, except after something new debuts and brings in new attention.

"I've never worked on a game [or mod] before" means their application goes into the circular file. "Interest" is not all that important if they have no experience.

If they want to join the community, that's great. If they want to start modding on their own, making their own project or maybe just a portfolio, even better. But for "a 25th anniversary ultimate edition community mod" they're not going to be able to help on the level truly necessary.


That's harsh... but not incorrect.
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User is offline   Aristotle Gumball 

  • banned!

#72

It's mostly just harsh.
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User is offline   Phredreeke 

#73

He's right though.

View PostHendricks266, on 23 October 2020 - 07:29 AM, said:

"I've never worked on a game [or mod] before" means their application goes into the circular file. "Interest" is not all that important if they have no experience.

If they want to join the community, that's great. If they want to start modding on their own, making their own project or maybe just a portfolio, even better. But for "a 25th anniversary ultimate edition community mod" they're not going to be able to help on the level truly necessary.


Furthermore, for the talent that exists, they are more likely to contribute to a project that's already got something to show for itself (AA, AMC TC, WGR) than a brand new project.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #74

Sometimes truths are uncomfortable. I've noticed that if a "groupthink bubble" is rapidly expanding, people for some reason don't like when you show that it's full of hot air, even though the community as a whole is better served by increasing awareness.

Don't get me wrong: when enthusiasm swells, that is a good thing. But if the major contributors to the enthusiasm don't know what they're doing, it becomes poseury.

View PostCartaphallus, on 23 October 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

It's mostly just harsh.

That's ripe coming from someone claiming your political leaning dictates what roles you are useful in.

View PostCartaphallus, on 23 October 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

And I don't mean to dig up old dirt, but Duke4's reputation might take a while to recover given what some people think about it.

"Some irrelevant and nasty people think you have cooties. It sure would be a shame if you didn't '*checks notes*' do whatever they say."

Get that saboteur bullshit out of here.
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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#75

My two cents, again. It's the 25th anniversary so make it a 25 level episode. Short and sweet levels with a few medium ones here and there. Short levels are fun to play and you don't get lost in them and the flow tends to stay good since you aren't backtracking over areas with dead enemies. The only thing mappers would have to coordinate on is making the end of one level go with the start of the next, and even that is optional. Start with a simple but modified code base that you can grab "off the shelf". I recommend Darkus' bugfix mod since it just fixes all the bugs in the vanilla game without adding controversial new features, and also it's not associated with any of the mega-mods so the episode won't be seen as an add-on to someone else's project. John Romero made a big splash by making a vanilla Doom level back in 2016, and while this community certainly does not have his reputation, that shows that people can still appreciate going back to the source and making something with original assets.

The experienced mappers who have been around for many years are capable of making a decent quality vanilla styled map in just a few days, if it is small. I've seen them do it plenty of times. Assuming the 25th anniversary is for the date of the full Duke 3D release, that's not until mid-April. Plenty of time. At some point if people want it, maybe someone (e.g. James or I ) could come in and modify the weapons and a few other things to give them more pizzaz while keeping the vanilla theme (not a major overhaul, just a little something here and there).

Or don't. It's really fine either way.
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User is offline   jkas789 

#76

To Hendricks266: I think the posts were harsh, but after mulling it over while cutting open someones arm I can understand your point. So fair enough.


Quote

The best thing that we by all means can do is just keep working on our personal projects and make'em so good that we all would be proud of it.


Agreed.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#77

View PostEmbittered Phallus, on 23 October 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think there are these long term projects here, but it seems that somehow less people are aware of them. I notice there are map packs released more often for Quake and Blood by much smaller communities. Frequency helps with visibility.

Their fans are much more rabid than Duke's fans. Trust me dude, DNF, nu-3DR/Interceptor, Gearbox, and JSJ have done more to hurt this community than any other person or group. Duke Nukem has left such a bad taste in many people's mouths. And honestly, I might be a bit biased here, but the 10 year obsession with the HRP did a lot of damage too. Just think about how many people used Doomsday 10 years ago compared to now.

View PostEmbittered Phallus, on 23 October 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

And I don't mean to dig up old dirt, but Duke4's reputation might take a while to recover given what some people think about it. Y'know, someone might come, see the F word being used in general gaming and decide this wasn't their kind of place. The whole IF censorship debacle didn't help matters.

I've always argued that making Duke4 the "hub" for the Duke community was objectively a mistake. It was originally Postwhores Paradise, some bizarre mixture of 4chan and 3D Realms forums. Even if you "cleaned up" the behaviour of the average poster you have years of shitposts people can take you hostage with.

View PostEmbittered Phallus, on 23 October 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

You'd think there would be more frequent Duke content despite all that since the fan-base is larger, but I guess not?

I'd argue there are more creators now than there have ever been. So many of them are professionals now. I think people compare us to Doom too much, because 80% of their content output is fucking trash.

View PostEmbittered Phallus, on 23 October 2020 - 01:50 AM, said:

Very generally (without pointing a finger at anyone), I also want to say that conservatives are less creative than liberals....on average. Take that to mean what you will.

I disagree with this. It's not true at all. What is true is that liberal creatives tend to blacklist conservative creatives so that they don't have places to work.

View PostPerro Seco, on 23 October 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

Hehe, I don't understand what this platitude is trying to convey either, since I've never asked nobody about releasing anything. The only things I do are saving screenshots, sprites, magazine scans, rare videos about different beta versions, some unused MIDIs, Lee Jackson's stories and inspirations behind his songs (including the rejected ones), etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

This is not a platitude, it's objective fact. Nothing more will ever be released except in the case of some miracle or someone going rogue. Anyone who has dealt with Gearbox in this regard can confirm.


View PostPerro Seco, on 23 October 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

Duke España closed because admins didn't have time to maintain it, but it still can be accessed on the Internet Archive. There are some useful tutorials in the forums, like how to create your own weapons, how to make them switchable like the shrinker/expander or how to create your own HUD.

That's a shame, like I said, they had a large community of people.

View Postjkas789, on 23 October 2020 - 06:00 AM, said:

To Jimmy and Cartaphallus, I'll take your comments into consideration. I personally don't think that Raze is a bad thing. If anything having more than one dominant software on a niche is always a good thing. Competition and necesity is the mother of invention.

Other ports have come and gone. People had the same bizarre reaction when BuildGDX debuted, and it coexists just fine.


View Postjkas789, on 23 October 2020 - 06:00 AM, said:

I partially disagree on that. I like the fact that the word fuck can be used on general gaming. I like the fact that on this community you and everyone can butt head and have strong opinions about things Cartaphallus. Freespeech on the internet is a dying breed dude.

Freespeech on this forum is already dead. He ain't referring to that F word, my man. This goes back to my point about "mainstreamifying" this site, you used to be able to say whatever you wanted and no one gave a fuck. Now every other post I have to use [REDACTED].


View Postjkas789, on 23 October 2020 - 06:00 AM, said:

Nobody brought politics into this mate. So please be kind and don't. Besides half the worlds literature was brought by what by today's standards would be conservative people.

That's what he does. lol It's what makes him loveable, he can't resist a cheap shot.
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User is offline   wnderer 

#78

I suggest that instead of community based, the OP does a team based project. Take the development offline and come back when you got something for ready for beta testing. You don't want to work with the hooting of the peanut gallery. People who want to be part of the team can contact the OP offline.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#79

The op was simply a suggestion for a Duke is 25 project.
Not so much an "I have ideas but no skills, so I need a bunch of people to create my vision" thread - which is the typical thing we get.

My input: if the project comes together, encourage potential players to find a method of getting duke3d.grp without paying randy for it. He doesn't deserve to benefit from this community's work.

This post has been edited by Forge: 24 October 2020 - 08:04 AM

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User is offline   NNC 

#80

View PostEmbittered Phallus, on 24 October 2020 - 04:51 AM, said:

Ooh, nice one! Ya hear that, americunts?

Those "quirks" hark back to a time when a number of folks were accusing me of being a communist spy or something; I suppose Mr. Ramos still thinks that given his saboteur comment. I was just playing along. I saw you taking part in discussions where a lot of these accusations were made, so I figured you were in the know. Will try to be less confusing next time.

To be honest, a mod should just remove/delete this entire sequence of posts starting with my original comment. I could edit out the part that hurt your feelz, but the harm's already done. I actually really enjoyed the idea of a community project, but I guess it won't happen anyway.


Many community projects happened in the past, and more will come in the future.
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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#81

Some of the more off topic posts were removed from view (they still exist but can only be seen by moderators). I did this to clean up the thread a bit. It makes it kind of messy since some posts that refer to other invisible posts still exist. Let's just move on.
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User is offline   NNC 

#82

And the final conclusion being....
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User is offline   Sanek 

#83

"We don't like ideas threads around here."
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#84

More specifically I think idea threads without any meat to them.

The equivalent of starting a project and posting an untextured AK-47 model as your only screenshot.

It's a fairly obviously idea in a general sense, but something specific? Really I think just having a good start on the Voxel pack and the AI Upscale pack in time for the 25th, and having a trailer to really show it off, would be plenty.

I'd love to see someone bang out another Christmas map.
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User is offline   wnderer 

#85

Maybe instead of creating a new mod for the 25th Anniversary, the community could do something like The Top 100 Doom Wads that was done for the 10th anniversary of Doom. We could do a smaller number say 25 mods and have nominations and voting on the games. This would bring attention to mods that deserve it, instead of making a mod that may or may not deserve attention.
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User is offline   Mark 

#86

We have way more mappers than modders. My guess is we have less than 15 modders and probably half of them are constantly busy with their projects. The other half make some assets but do not make maps.

This post has been edited by Mark: 27 October 2020 - 11:48 AM

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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#87

Yeah dude, I'm not even sure if 25 mods have been completed in the past five years.
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User is offline   wnderer 

#88

Mods, maps, whatever you call them. This stuff Doomers called them wads. I'm no expert I just play this stuff and it's hard to figure out which ones are worth playing. I would like a list like The Top 100 Doom Wads.

This post has been edited by wnderer: 27 October 2020 - 01:38 PM

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User is offline   Jblade 

#89

The issue with community projects is always that if they do manage to get started than they start out strong but as soon as they hit the hump that every single project hits, most people get bored and bail out. It then depends solely on the leader to push it through that gap and a lot of people just don't have the time, commitment or even drive to get it through that phase.
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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#90

View PostJblade, on 27 October 2020 - 01:20 PM, said:

The issue with community projects is always that if they do manage to get started than they start out strong but as soon as they hit the hump that every single project hits, most people get bored and bail out. It then depends solely on the leader to push it through that gap and a lot of people just don't have the time, commitment or even drive to get it through that phase.

Great post.

People don't realize that completing a project actually takes a lot of time and effort, compared to the initial phase, and they loose interest by that point.

Also, on my experience a full TC usually requires multiple committed people working on it, or it will take many years to finish it.

Note that the Doom community release a lot of projects, but too much of it seems like experimental or joke WADs.
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