[oasiz]

Not caring about the reasons is a bit ignorant. Large portions were reworked due to the inability to move wallpoints in x/y due to how it needs to tesselate the geometry for the renderer, this makes any rotating sector effect something that has to be removed.
In this case it was absolutely necessary to rework those areas as the alternative would be complete removal.

As Rabid transit was mostly centered around a freely moving subway they had basically two options: Cut a very memorable level or re-do half of the map while keeping as much of the concept intact as possible.
There are many areas in Duke64 where this limitation forced complete overhauls. Bank roll is another example since it relied on the huge rotating gears for the main gimmick.

Personally I think they respected good design guidelines very well and I don't think there is much that could be done better.
While I do agree that these are indeed hacks to get around the limitations (with downgrades), I do not agree with the unnecessary statement

[ck3D]

@The Watchtower don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the changes worked. Gun Crazy can only pale in front of the original, classic E1L2, in general most of the modifications feel like a visual hackwork because that's what they are and thus by definition alone butchered some of the tone of the original game but besides that, I can appreciate how the authors sometimes went the extra length and spent some time and care adding a few brand new areas to levels even though no one probably asked them to. I'm thinking again of that convenience store in E1L1 but also of the extra police station in Freeway for instance. Or even simple stuff such as the super high ledge in Gun Crazy with the two babes that's only accessible if the player saves their jetpack. It's probably just more multiplayer logic but occasionally it made for more depth to the original scenery in a way that made sense, like the authors didn't just shrug the changes and genuinely cared to update their work accordingly.

[December Man]

If we are talking about level design, I personally like simpler, smaller levels overall. I rarely enjoy the modern user levels and think they are overdesigned, overly reliant on scripted events and overly complicated. I love stuff like F3MX (even though it does have a few overly complex levels), Metropolitan Mayhem (though the levels are a bit short even for me) or Duke Hard. I do not want to sh*t on talented people who create these sprawling maps, full of details and incredible scripted events, but each time I play them I either get lost really easily and/or just wish they were split into smaller levels.

[NNC]

 ck3D, on 15 October 2020 - 04:00 AM, said:

@The Watchtower don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the changes worked. Gun Crazy can only pale in front of the original, classic E1L2, in general most of the modifications feel like a visual hackwork because that's what they are and thus by definition alone butchered some of the tone of the original game but besides that, I can appreciate how the authors sometimes went the extra length and spent some time and care adding a few brand new areas to levels even though no one probably asked them to. I'm thinking again of that convenience store in E1L1 but also of the extra police station in Freeway for instance. Or even simple stuff such as the super high ledge in Gun Crazy with the two babes that's only accessible if the player saves their jetpack. It's probably just more multiplayer logic but occasionally it made for more depth to the original scenery in a way that made sense, like the authors didn't just shrug the changes and genuinely cared to update their work accordingly.

I always thought the store, which can't even be reached normally or from a backdoor (the entire level essence in the classic part), only by teleport in E1L1 hack was totally out of place. And so was the police station. To each his own, I guess.

[Phredreeke]

 oasiz, on 15 October 2020 - 03:59 AM, said:

As Rabid transit was mostly centered around a freely moving subway they had basically two options: Cut a very memorable level or re-do half of the map while keeping as much of the concept intact as possible.
There are many areas in Duke64 where this limitation forced complete overhauls. Bank roll is another example since it relied on the huge rotating gears for the main gimmick.

Worth mentioning is that the Saturn version instead cut the train cars outright, while keeping the general layout.

Similarly, Bankroll replaced the rotating gears with simple doors.

[ck3D]

 The Watchtower, on 15 October 2020 - 08:54 AM, said:

I always thought the store, which can't even be reached normally or from a backdoor (the entire level essence in the classic part), only by teleport in E1L1 hack was totally out of place. And so was the police station. To each his own, I guess.

Yeah, just to be specific though, I agree that teleporter sucked in essence (the first time I found it, I had no idea what that new area it had just sent me to was, and how it was related to the map in any way), then later I saw blueprints of the level in a magazine and realized where exactly that room was in the map (IIRC the convenience store physically is behind the wall it should be, even if you can't open the door), and the revelation of being inside the walls of that one building kind of blew my mind. The base game also had its fair share of seemingly pointless teleporters in odd locations too (E3 in particular has a few that look even more out of place than in E2), it was never my favorite trick either way though. Probably because it's commonly used as a quick patch for bad or lazy design.

[High Treason]

The new areas in the N64 version have a distinct style about them and some common issues for me - for one thing, they seem to all feature rather overstretched textures, pretty much all of them have that same wall blood somewhere and seem to lack anything dynamic or interactive. I'd still argue that the N64 port is the least worst of the console versions, though.


Teleporters are fine when done right, but I never once thought to look in that one spot in E1L1 and it still makes no sense to me since being shown it a couple of years back - why would you ever look in that spot to enter something on the opposite side of the map? Until then I had assumed the store interior was for display only.
Personally I prefer to reserve teleporters for dodging limitations, like stacking floors, avoiding the sprite limit or else creating effects that would otherwise be impossible. Suppose they'd be more at home in a futuristic space level, perhaps even to eliminate some backtracking in general, but that one, no, that one in E1L1 is just crap.

[ck3D]

Yeah I can definitely agree with that, it's the laziest possible design when they could have added a physical connection between the two areas (from the apartment above would have been nice). But when you think about it it doesn't make less sense than other teleporters in the base game, for instance as much as I love L.A. Rumble (I've said it countless times on here that it's one of my all-time favorite OG maps along with Freeway, incredibly hot takes I know), to me that ending never made any sense, why a cheap teleporter when you could have some more exciting kind of way up the rest of the building for a minute, even a simple elevator and then maybe end up on an actual rooftop dominating the whole level instead of a separate place that's just there. I always found it quite anticlimactic, for the whole duration of the map the build-up is epic and then with SE7 to some bogus room comes a bit of a ruined orgasm.

[NNC]

 ck3D, on 15 October 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yeah, just to be specific though, I agree that teleporter sucked in essence (the first time I found it, I had no idea what that new area it had just sent me to was, and how it was related to the map in any way), then later I saw blueprints of the level in a magazine and realized where exactly that room was in the map (IIRC the convenience store physically is behind the wall it should be, even if you can't open the door), and the revelation of being inside the walls of that one building kind of blew my mind. The base game also had its fair share of seemingly pointless teleporters in odd locations too (E3 in particular has a few that look even more out of place than in E2), it was never my favorite trick either way though. Probably because it's commonly used as a quick patch for bad or lazy design.

Did E3 have that much teleporters? The ones in Raw Meat were mostly made for multiplayer (like the original level), and weren't really blocked for single play. LA Rumble helicopter teleport was pretty interesting, although it would have been nice to have an elevator and a rooftop area with that, but probably it wouldn't work with an already jetpack heavy level. The one in Hotel Hell was a pathway to the secret jungle, and the secret level. I can't think of others.

[ck3D]

Maybe they weren't that numerous and it's some Mandela effect I'm getting, but their existence definitely always left me with an awkward taste, maybe because the city environments are immersive and then it's such a brutal reminder that you're playing a game with abstract mechanics (which is fine too, but there's a contrast). A rooftop in L.A. Rumble would have definitely been possible, I could definitely see one sandwiched in between the last office building and the East Town/Town East Towers that would be accessible just from that supposed elevator in lieu of the teleporter inside (the layout of the level would have worked with the orientation too), blocked off on the outside by fencing the same way the rooftop in E1L1 (for instance) is blocked off. The view would have been amazing, validating of the vertical experience that map is, and the helicopter could have been added there easily too. In fact thinking about it, the placement of that final teleporter is almost too perfect for that idea to have never been considered, now I'm kind of wondering if it ever was originally and then got scrapped.

[OpenMaw]

 The Watchtower, on 15 October 2020 - 03:43 AM, said:

The design of Duke64 is a hackwork for most part and I don't care about the reasons. The connections between Red Light District and Rabid Transit was a good touch, but again, it needed tremendous hackwork to modify the levels unnecessarily.

I don't agree. 1. It wasn't unnecessary. It was a mission statement of doing the port, that Duke 64 would have unique content to interest players who had it on PC or PS1 to try it on the 64. 2. Whether the work was hacky or not, the presentation was great. As was said, it helped give the levels some additional atmosphere that they would have otherwise lacked. I thought it was great to see the subway system in Gun Crazy and then go to Rabid Transit and look down into Gun Crazy. That was smart.


Now in terms of atmosphere, the PC version is still the superior way to play, but I think N64 does what it has to to create its own atmosphere. Which was one of the goals of the port in the first place. They had to change things up. By removing the titties they had to plug in the holes, and then of course we have the technical aspects which caused limits. It's actually one of the reasons I hate the Saturn version of the game, it feels SO cut down from the PC version by comparison.

[Jimmy]

All of the Duke64 additions and ideas are good in theory. Not always best in application. They could have phoned it in, and they chose not to. I think that's cool.

[Phredreeke]

Duke 64 is worth playing even if you have already played Duke on PC. How many censored games can you say that about?

[necroslut]

 ck3D, on 15 October 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

Maybe they weren't that numerous and it's some Mandela effect I'm getting, but their existence definitely always left me with an awkward taste, maybe because the city environments are immersive and then it's such a brutal reminder that you're playing a game with abstract mechanics (which is fine too, but there's a contrast). A rooftop in L.A. Rumble would have definitely been possible, I could definitely see one sandwiched in between the last office building and the East Town/Town East Towers that would be accessible just from that supposed elevator in lieu of the teleporter inside (the layout of the level would have worked with the orientation too), blocked off on the outside by fencing the same way the rooftop in E1L1 (for instance) is blocked off. The view would have been amazing, validating of the vertical experience that map is, and the helicopter could have been added there easily too. In fact thinking about it, the placement of that final teleporter is almost too perfect for that idea to have never been considered, now I'm kind of wondering if it ever was originally and then got scrapped.

It does sound like the kind of thing that might have been cut for framerate reasons.

 OpenMaw, on 15 October 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

I don't agree. 1. It wasn't unnecessary. It was a mission statement of doing the port, that Duke 64 would have unique content to interest players who had it on PC or PS1 to try it on the 64. 2. Whether the work was hacky or not, the presentation was great. As was said, it helped give the levels some additional atmosphere that they would have otherwise lacked. I thought it was great to see the subway system in Gun Crazy and then go to Rabid Transit and look down into Gun Crazy. That was smart.

Personally, one problem with some of the added areas in Duke 64 is that they violate the before-mentioned "Romero rule" -- adding areas is cool and all, but adding non-accessible areas (in say E1L1) breaks the rules the game is built around.

[jkas789]

 necroslut, on 15 October 2020 - 04:00 PM, said:

Personally, one problem with some of the added areas in Duke 64 is that they violate the before-mentioned "Romero rule" -- adding areas is cool and all, but adding non-accessible areas (in say E1L1) breaks the rules the game is built around.

This. There is nothing more annoying then seeing something cool and figuring out it is out of bounds. However Personally I don't think Duke 64 broke the rule that much if at all. There was a clear divide between out of bounds areas and the actual level I feel.

[OpenMaw]

Doesn't really break that rule, no. You can see it, and later on you can get to it. In the long term it does not break the rule, and I'll be honest on my first playthrough of Duke 64 back in the 90s? I didn't even notice the Rabit Transit area in Gun Crazy. I guess I just never looked that way.

[NNC]

Back on topic, I think if Randy wants something good, he might consider an EDuke32 based port with some important bugfixes that are still left in the game. I mean how about fixing the glitched sector effectors like the drill, the escalator, the second reactor or even the room over room (that updated to TROR). How about those little minor things like respawns corresponding to palettes (even in World Tour episode, mappers still used pal 21 liztroop respawns), the iconic bug of reconcars not respawning (in E1L2 for example), or the famous shrinker error against bosses. And an updated new enemies to EDuke32, especially that awful Cyclops recolor. Even if they want their own thing and don't want to pay royalties, these bugfixes should be done, along with the other stuff (ie. the infamous sound interruption error) from World Tour. This would be as good as a new episode to be honest. Also the port, whatever they use, should be perfectly moddable. I'm not a fan of Megaton at all, but it was much more moddable port than the World Tour one.

[jkas789]

It is admittedly one of the reasons I hate modern Far Cry games so much. Why give me an open world game if you are going to limit me where I can go? Would greatly prefered if the Far cry games were more like Zelda Breath of the Wild in that aspect. Here is the tutorial zone, now go out there and do what you want. Go nuts!

Granted Duke 3D is NOT an open world game. However it did a good job of not teasing the player with zones, doors or tunnels that looked like a continuation of the level but were actually an invisible wall IMO.

[Jimmy]

 OpenMaw, on 15 October 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

Doesn't really break that rule, no. You can see it, and later on you can get to it. In the long term it does not break the rule, and I'll be honest on my first playthrough of Duke 64 back in the 90s? I didn't even notice the Rabit Transit area in Gun Crazy. I guess I just never looked that way.

I feel like Duke was already breaking the rules somewhat even back then. You have a lot of levels that show a future level, like Raw Meat showing Bank Roll (and vice versa) or Critical Mass showing Derelict. Duke64 continued this idea in a way, I guess. I actually like this kind of thing a lot, it builds a world. Really, I think the point of the Romero Rule is to not get crazy with extraneous environment. Build your unreachable locations in such a moderate way that everyone realizes it's just set dressing and they won't even want to go there. This could also inspire players to find secret levels by thinking "Okay, I actually am supposed to find a way there." But there's such a fine line here.

 jkas789, on 15 October 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Granted Duke 3D is NOT an open world game. However it did a good job of not teasing the player with zones, doors or tunnels that looked like a continuation of the level but were actually an invisible wall IMO.

One could argue that Duke might have started all of this, because Doom and it's many clones were quite abstract or fantasy type locations. Duke3D was notable for feeling like places that could be real.

[jkas789]

 The Watchtower, on 15 October 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Back on topic, I think if Randy wants something good, he might consider an EDuke32 based port with some important bugfixes that are still left in the game. I mean how about fixing the glitched sector effectors like the drill, the escalator, the second reactor or even the room over room (that updated to TROR). How about those little minor things like respawns corresponding to palettes (even in World Tour episode, mappers still used pal 21 liztroop respawns), the iconic bug of reconcars not respawning (in E1L2 for example), or the famous shrinker error against bosses. And an updated new enemies to EDuke32, especially that awful Cyclops recolor. Even if they want their own thing and don't want to pay royalties, these bugfixes should be done, along with the other stuff (ie. the infamous sound interruption error) from World Tour. This would be as good as a new episode to be honest. Also the port, whatever they use, should be perfectly moddable. I'm not a fan of Megaton at all, but it was much more moddable port than the World Tour one.

I wouldn't be against all this, however I can't imagine them wasting money on something that is already up and done with their 20th anniv WT version IMO. I mean, the problems are still there, but I can see Gearbox saying "good enough" and moving on to talking about the budget for the next Borderlands 3 DLC.

[OpenMaw]

 Jimmy, on 16 October 2020 - 12:04 AM, said:

I feel like Duke was already breaking the rules somewhat even back then. You have a lot of levels that show a future level, like Raw Meat showing Bank Roll (and vice versa) or Critical Mass showing Derelict. Duke64 continued this idea in a way, I guess. I actually like this kind of thing a lot, it builds a world. Really, I think the point of the Romero Rule is to not get crazy with extraneous environment. Build your unreachable locations in such a moderate way that everyone realizes it's just set dressing and they won't even want to go there. This could also inspire players to find secret levels by thinking "Okay, I actually am supposed to find a way there." But there's such a fine line here.


One could argue that Duke might have started all of this, because Doom and it's many clones were quite abstract or fantasy type locations. Duke3D was notable for feeling like places that could be real.

A more modern comparison is the large skyboxes of Half-Life 2. It's still very clear what is going to be playable space and what is atmosphere. You can see the citadel everywhere, but you obviously don't go there until later in the game. That, to me, is fine because it's generating a sense of visual continuity. As you said, world building. A sense of place.

The problem comes when you're in a playable space and the designer puts in these things that act as arbitrary blocks. Invisible walls just, because, doors that won't open for no apparent reason. Especially with a suped-up badass like Duke. Why isn't he kicking the doors in? Why isn't he blowing them off their hinges. It pulls the player out of it for a moment.

Having buildings that you cant access on the other side of a wall doesn't do that, to me. In point of fact, Doom itself "breaks" Romero's own rule if you think about it. E1M1 shows you an area you cant access. The outdoor area where you get the armor in. You can't go out there. Or how about the elevated outdoor area in E1M2? Sure, you can go outside, but you can't go everywhere out there.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I think the point stands. No rule should be absolute like that. Especially in a creative pursuit like a video game.

I think as far as the player is concerned, the playable space should feel cohesive, versitile, and authentic. Not necessarily "realistic" but authentic. It should feel right. Lot's of things about the realistic locations in Duke 3D aren't exactly realistic. Lot's of dead end streets with no explanation, lot's of structures that make no sense, don't use the space very well when compared to the real thing, etc... It's still abstract and gamey, but it feels authentic.

[necroslut]

 OpenMaw, on 15 October 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

Doesn't really break that rule, no. You can see it, and later on you can get to it. In the long term it does not break the rule, and I'll be honest on my first playthrough of Duke 64 back in the 90s? I didn't even notice the Rabit Transit area in Gun Crazy. I guess I just never looked that way.

I wasn't really talking about the Rabit Transit connection, but more about stuff like the added street areas in E1L1.

 The Watchtower, on 15 October 2020 - 11:52 PM, said:

Back on topic, I think if Randy wants something good, he might consider an EDuke32 based port with some important bugfixes that are still left in the game. I mean how about fixing the glitched sector effectors like the drill, the escalator, the second reactor or even the room over room (that updated to TROR). How about those little minor things like respawns corresponding to palettes (even in World Tour episode, mappers still used pal 21 liztroop respawns), the iconic bug of reconcars not respawning (in E1L2 for example), or the famous shrinker error against bosses. And an updated new enemies to EDuke32, especially that awful Cyclops recolor. Even if they want their own thing and don't want to pay royalties, these bugfixes should be done, along with the other stuff (ie. the infamous sound interruption error) from World Tour. This would be as good as a new episode to be honest. Also the port, whatever they use, should be perfectly moddable. I'm not a fan of Megaton at all, but it was much more moddable port than the World Tour one.

I still want that "definitive edition" of Duke 3D, and it would obviously need to be based on EDuke32. Both Megaton and World Tour were major missed opportunities as far as I am concerned. It would also be cool to get an official v1.6, including .con bugfixes. Really, it should have been done back when Megaton was first released.

[jkas789]

 necroslut, on 16 October 2020 - 07:49 PM, said:

I still want that "definitive edition" of Duke 3D, and it would obviously need to be based on EDuke32. Both Megaton and World Tour were major missed opportunities as far as I am concerned. It would also be cool to get an official v1.6, including .con bugfixes. Really, it should have been done back when Megaton was first released.

I also want this. However I can't see Gearbox doing it. The only way we will get that is if it comes from the community.

[Jimmy]

Kind of a random thought but some people have mentioned Romero in this thread, so I have been studying up on Sandy Petersen a bit lately. He's kind of like the unsung hero of classic Doom. It got me to thinking what a Duke 3D level made by Sandy would be like, or even what his opinion on the game is. I know Romero liked it but I've never seen comments from Sandy. Anyway, he has a really interesting YouTube channel and here's a good video on his game design.

[OpenMaw]

Sandy's levels weren't as pretty, but he was always experimenting. In certain respects I can see that actually fitting Duke very well.

[Jimmy]

I think that may have been more of limitations of the editor than anything else.

[NNC]

I think E2M6 (The Halls of the Damned) is the most horrific map in the game. An intuitive one that is. I also love The Chasm (another one that is reportedly based on Sandy's nightmares) and the underrated Monster Condo (I guess it was also a nightmare). The Spirit Would could have been great too, but the unvisible shhotable switch kinda ruined it. Too bad Sandy had his stinkers too. I hate most of episode 3 (and especially that terrible hand map), and the city levels of Doom 2 as well. I guess Sandy would have been more consistent and highly regarded, if he was focusing on finishing levels properly, instead of rushing with them. Romero was partly at fault at this, when Doom 2 was made, he cared about his cars more than the game design.

[duke3d.exe]

 The Watchtower, on 17 October 2020 - 02:41 PM, said:

I think E2M6 (The Halls of the Damned) is the most horrific map in the game. An intuitive one that is. I also love The Chasm (another one that is reportedly based on Sandy's nightmares) and the underrated Monster Condo (I guess it was also a nightmare). The Spirit Would could have been great too, but the unvisible shhotable switch kinda ruined it. Too bad Sandy had his stinkers too. I hate most of episode 3 (and especially that terrible hand map), and the city levels of Doom 2 as well. I guess Sandy would have been more consistent and highly regarded, if he was focusing on finishing levels properly, instead of rushing with them. Romero was partly at fault at this, when Doom 2 was made, he cared about his cars more than the game design.

MAP29 was epic. When I was a kid i was scared to play it, it was too big to finish. I saw all these monsters in the distance shooting and it felt like hell.

[NNC]

Nothing....

[Lunick]

 The Watchtower, on 30 January 2021 - 12:12 AM, said:

Nothing....

Just as an FYI, the 20th Anniversary Edition wasn't teased until September of 2016. If Gearbox has anything up their sleeves, it'll be announced later in the year rather than today