[Nuke.YKT]

I've posted this on Discord earlier today and thought to share this here as well.
https://i.imgur.com/tgtXGuL.png
Basically Rednukem is getting DN64 support.

[Mark]

From the duke4 forums in an alternate dimension. https://forums.duke4...dpost__p__31417

https://forums.duke4...dpost__p__31341

[11bush]

I started working on a new M-60, still need to add color, but I'm pretty happy so far.

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[11bush]

Finished coloring the M-60

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[11bush]

Sorry to blow up the post, but here is the finished product.

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[11bush]

Your ass is grass, and I've got the weed whacker!

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[ck3D]

Finally done with the layout of the second map in my episode. Attaching a 2D screenshot of the full thing, I don't think it spoils much but feel free to avoid getting a close look if you prefer. First time in my life actually struggling with the wall limit (and not just fearing it), and I never knew Mapster (at least my version of it) could start acting so weird even when one only nears the maximum amount, before they actually hit it. In my case, towards the end the editor wouldn't even let me join some neighboring sectors together to earn some walls back, repeatedly trying to do so yielded some funny results:

- 2D mode insta crash;

- 2D mode automatic insertion of a glitched sprite over one of the nearby vertexes (always) upon the apparently successful joining, randomly green, purple or white with crazy tags and I guess C-stat attributes (I had never seen sprites looking like that in 2D mode before, they looked like dotted lines), I remember getting a lot of them displayed as Masterswitches in 2D mode but in retrospect, maybe it's just that I had the Masterswitch in my Tab key cache and the program would copy that. Moving the vertex then deleting the sprite in 2D mode seemed to either potentially corrupt the map by making the editor super unstable and prone to crash during saves (which nuked three of my back-ups, thankfully I'm always making copies), or just fix the situation like nothing ever happened. Entering 3D mode and coming close to the area containing the glitched sprite would just crash the editor, so I could never actually see the sprite in-game;

- 3D mode random texture swaps: upon joining two specific sectors the map wouldn't exactly crash, but some of the textures in those sectors would get swapped with another at random (e.g.. specific car textures turning into specific Pig Cop still frames, IIRC retaining alignment and palette; I'm assuming the obtained tile is random as the map has no enemies yet and thus has never seen a Pig Cop logged anywhere). Behavior seemed similar to how one gets the textures from the parent sector by default whenever they build a new one till they change them in the new one, except here the walls were already present and textured yet would still get 'reset' that way somehow.

I'm assuming those behaviors are due to some kind of overflow and the walls resetting themselves thing has to do with the editor struggling with the quantity of resources left during whatever calculation it has to make to join two sectors in the most dire conditions, anyway I didn't expect to see so much wonky stuff but in the end I wrapped the level up with only 10 walls left (I reckon something like 16 would have been a safer zone, but past that point the editor wouldn't even let me go back), and thankfully I had planned things correctly so that the very last additions to the map I could always build out of sprites, which I did. Honestly it was kinda fun.

So right now it's pretty much in the same state as the first map, aka. finished with just the gameplay to throw in and some last minute sprite-based cosmetic additions and changes. I'm a bit bummed that the cars cast no shadows, but the general lighting, atmosphere and scale of the level should justify that look.

Probably going to take a small break for a week or two before starting the third map (hopefully a smaller one than those two), although today I also started my part in CBP2020, not sure where it's going but I'm in experimentation mode and so far it's looking funky.

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[brullov]

I wish HUB feature was also present in Duke 3D as in Ion Fury. Is it possible to include it into Eduke32?

[Jimmy]

That's an ancient feature for EDuke32. AMC TC uses it too.

[Merlijn]

Looking good ck3d! I can tell from the screenshot that the scale is going to be pretty big.

I'm still making solid progress with my map, so I decided to show a bit more.
This shows the fallen building in it's context with the map. You can also see hints of alien infestation and alien growth taking over human structures.
This theme will show up more in this level, indicating you're getting closer to the source.

[ck3D]

Damn that scenery with the diagonal building and the bits of alien infestation looks awesome. Loving the variety in terrain height/style, the clean spritework and the style in texture selection.

Yeah that map is large, that's the in-game automap fully zoomed out and it just barely fits the screen height-wise, what one can't tell on the screenshot is that those two side streets are uphill too, the construction at the center is quite monumental, and the outskirts of the map are littered with constructions that are visible from any distance so standing at one end of the map and looking towards the other end towering over the scenery from heights, you really feel like you're part of a big city but without losing the Duke 3D feel, at least that's the effect I get and the one I was going for. I'm also happy that this level I find respects the traditional idea that a Duke 3D map should have a central theme, it's the case to quite an extent here so the progression feels classic yet the scale is many times bigger than, say, a level from episode 1 or 3 under every dimension I could envision and achieve. I'm estimating this one should take a solid hour of playthrough going in blind. First map is about 45 mins, I'm not trying to have every map that thick, but I'm inspired enough that so far they keep degenerating into monsters so what will happen will happen is all I can say for certain for the rest. Honestly, now I'm at the point where I'm almost tempted to extend that second map with a secret map given that I ran out of resources to implement the entirety of what I had in mind for it.

[brullov]

MARTYR, on 22 May 2020 - 08:28 AM, said:

That's an ancient feature for EDuke32. AMC TC uses it too.

Oh, I did not know about that. How do I use it?

[oasiz]

brullov, on 23 May 2020 - 01:32 AM, said:

Oh, I did not know about that. How do I use it?

You need to utilize this in CON, the infrastructure is there.
Many think that Fury has it's own tweaks to build but no, every effect you see in fury can just as well be done in duke as long as you write the CON for it.

This does make me think that there should be some add-on for duke that does zero game play changes and implements a bunch of new effects/etc.. that could be utilized by mappers.
There have been various mods over the years but not really anything that acts as a baseline, giving fully vanilla experience but i.e. new trigger system / SEs to work with.

It's a bit of a shame to see the wheel re-invented time and time again.

[Doom64hunter]

brullov, on 23 May 2020 - 01:32 AM, said:

Oh, I did not know about that. How do I use it?

https://wiki.eduke32...ki/Savemapstate
https://wiki.eduke32...ki/Loadmapstate

These are the commands you'll need.

[Sangman]

Merlijn, on 22 May 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

Looking good ck3d! I can tell from the screenshot that the scale is going to be pretty big.

I'm still making solid progress with my map, so I decided to show a bit more.
This shows the fallen building in it's context with the map. You can also see hints of alien infestation and alien growth taking over human structures.
This theme will show up more in this level, indicating you're getting closer to the source.

duke0089.png

How did you do that sloped building in the background? I can't seem to wrap my head around how you were able to rotate the texture in that way.

[ck3D]

Sangman, on 23 May 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

How did you do that sloped building in the background? I can't seem to wrap my head around how you were able to rotate the texture in that way.

I don't think he did 'rotate' it, there's a diagonal version of that texture (two, actually, IIRC) in the original .art (see: Freeway) which I'm assuming is what he's using.

[Merlijn]

Yes the side of the building uses the rotated building texture from Freeway, and the texture underneath it is the regular one.
Then there's also an actual rooftop, not visible from this angle but it's there to mess with your head even more. ;)

Thanks for your feedback ck3d, glad you like it! Your map sounds really interesting, having a diagonal/uphill layout is pretty unique for Duke.
EDIT: also, an hour of gameplay? wow!

[Sangman]

ck3D, on 23 May 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

I don't think he did 'rotate' it, there's a diagonal version of that texture (two, actually, IIRC) in the original .art (see: Freeway) which I'm assuming is what he's using.

Oh right. Been a while since I looked at vanilla textures ;)

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 23 May 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

Thanks for your feedback ck3d, glad you like it! Your map sounds really interesting, having a diagonal/uphill layout is pretty unique for Duke.
EDIT: also, an hour of gameplay? wow!

Yeah the map has a lot of terrain to cover on not just the horizontal but also the vertical axis, there's quite a lot of SOS action going on with multiple layers of level in parts that don't really translate over to 2D mode. Also the scale will allow the implementation of some quite epic firefights, which I reckon alone should take the player quite some time, as well as some puzzles, scripted sequences and various exploration tasks to make sure the player covers most of the available ground.

One thing I haven't mentioned so far is I'm trying to stay close to the ratio of secret places per map the original maps used here, too. So as my maps for this get bigger, the number of secrets in them grows exponentially too. I haven't tagged them all in both maps yet, but I'm comfortable estimating that they have between 15 and 20 each (I might retcon some of those areas into non-secret sections though), I kinda want to create a little universe the exploration fans would yearn to move into to if that makes sense (going by my own recollections of playing Duke 64 as a kid and trying to get everywhere in sight with the Jetpack on God mode).

[pmw]

Merlijn, on 22 May 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

Looking good ck3d! I can tell from the screenshot that the scale is going to be pretty big.

I'm still making solid progress with my map, so I decided to show a bit more.
This shows the fallen building in it's context with the map. You can also see hints of alien infestation and alien growth taking over human structures.
This theme will show up more in this level, indicating you're getting closer to the source.

duke0089.png

I like this one. Are you using TROR or doing tricks with the original engine? Any ETA for the map?

[Merlijn]

pmw, on 23 May 2020 - 02:31 PM, said:

I like this one. Are you using TROR or doing tricks with the original engine? Any ETA for the map?

Thanks! No TROR involved, just using sectors and spritework to create the illusion of actual 3D space.

I don't know when the map will be finished, I'm making good progress but there are no deadlines. ;)
I'm currently at 1378 sectors and 10351 walls. Map should be done by July/August.

[William Gee]

WOW that's beautiful Merlijn!

[ck3D]

Worked on my section for CBP 2020 today and already built 1100 walls out of the 2000 allocated per person. Having something simple to go nuts with is really fun in addition to being good general practice, plus I'm kind of happy with the levels of funk the results are showing so far. I'm glad the format is what it is too, so I'm not tempted to develop the 'level' into something too ambitious and can tackle map 3 of my project soon (in the meantime I'm still mentally planning it out, so focusing on something different right now is perfect flow). On the other hand, now I'm tempted to expand the concept I'm using into something bigger sometime. Would love to post screenshots but it's not just my map and I suspect it shouldn't drop in too long anyway so no real need for spoilers (also really looking forward to discovering everybody else's contributions).

[Mark]

I was browsing my posts in this thread from way back in 2010-2012. I found this pic. Back then I posted a bunch of these while working on my projects. This was from an early version of the Blood bonus map in my Graveyard TC.

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[Mister Sinister]

[Sanek]

A quick update on where I am with my map right now.
Unfortunately, I made zero progress over the last 30 days. It doesn't mean that I didn't do anything - I made several versions of what I wanted but it just doesn't work so I deleted all of it.
What I wanted to make is a jungle-themed map that also have a city, camp and cave sections. Jungle serves as a hub area. I quicky realised that with layout like this the map is just too big for it's own good, so I changed the layout a little bit. Now there's a city as a hub area, with jungle on the edges of it. For the last 2 weeks I desperately tried to make it like this, since I made that trees area that I showed you. There's lots of issues with the height of buildings and trees and rocks, so I just gave up in the end and was forced to delete the trees section that I tried to "save" all this time.

Now I came up with a better idea. Instead of a city, it's more like a village/suburbia now, with rocks around it (maybe some trees if I'll have enough space for it) and every building is like 2-3 story high. I'm looking at Red series as the example of village maps done right.
I hope things'll go much faster know, when I know what to do. It's a part of a mapping process I guess - after all, I suppose you all had situations like this, when you don't like the area and delete it (please don't tell me you do everything with a first try!).

@Mister Sinister Looks very Doom-y to me! :)

[ck3D]

I actually do mostly map first try, but that's because I don't touch the editor before envisioning the complete universe of the map in my head - I actually refrain myself from touching it until the scope of ideas develops to that stage, otherwise I know I'll end up in the same low points I used to be in as a kid when you're just staring at the grid and trying to improvise the level at random with nothing to say. Theme switch sounds pretty drastic, here it sounds like you had an idea of the type of terrain/style you wanted to design, but not so much of the whole story that you wanted the level to tell. So in a way, because you didn't wait for ideas to gather, they're doing it now and it seems like you have to rearrange what you've already made to the rhythm at which they come.

The only time I can remember deleting then rebuilding something recently was a dozen of cars in one map I've made. I had built one early on (prior to the level finding its specific style) that I had copy-pasted everywhere with palette alterations, then while wrapping up the level they just kept bugging me because they stuck out like sore thumbs. So I had to kick myself in the ass and go ahead and delete every single old car, make a new one that worked better and then make altered copies of that one again. Some of them were under different layers of SOS in 2D mode too. One of those situations that really isn't too bad, but the lazy and paranoid part of one's self always feels like postponing if not straight up overlooking (bad trait).

Occasionally I'll delete attempts at effects that go wrong or just revert back to an earlier version of the map before I implemented them, but the basic concept of a level (regardless of the theme, which is essentially just a costume) and its barebones 2D layout are already part of the plans before I fire up the editor, otherwise it'd be like trying to use a drill in the desert.

[Sanek]

Do you really have every piece of the map in your head before you start mapping? I believe we already discussed it before, when I said that I have the general idea of a map and it's key areas, but have trouble with everything in-between. In case of my WIP map, I know where everything should be but when I actually start doing something, everything goes not as planned. It's like you imagined that you'll make work of art but it looks more like kid's drawings in reality. I can see the player going down the street, looking at various buildings and cliffs in the distance, but i just can't visualise it in the editor. I guess I should really follow your tip and memorise the whole map in my head before making anything. I wanted to make a Red-like map which means it'll take a lot of time, but what i have done so far looks more like Winterfall. Perhaps I'll make the map smaller than intented yet keep the layout intact to keep things easier to plan!

It's kinda sad that I never mastered the planning aspect of mapping for all these years. Despite some obvious design progress I still make maps like I did 10 years ago, when I just doing what turns out and only tentatively follow map's "legend".

[ck3D]

Sanek, on 03 June 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

Do you really have every piece of the map in your head before you start mapping? I believe we already discussed it before, when I said that I have the general idea of a map and it's key areas, but have trouble with everything in-between. In case of my WIP map, I know where everything should be but when I actually start doing something, everything goes not as planned. It's like you imagined that you'll make work of art but it looks more like kid's drawings in reality. I can see the player going down the street, looking at various buildings and cliffs in the distance, but i just can't visualise it in the editor. I guess I should really follow your tip and memorise the whole map in my head before making anything. I wanted to make a Red-like map which means it'll take a lot of time, but what i have done so far looks more like Winterfall. Perhaps I'll make the map smaller than intented yet keep the layout intact to keep things easier to plan!

It's kinda sad that I never mastered the planning aspect of mapping for all these years. Despite some obvious design progress I still make maps like I did 10 years ago, when I just doing what turns out and only tentatively follow map's "legend".

I usually have the basic idea for the layout, which is the general shape of the level in 2D mode but also in 3D mode (considering the vertical axis - I know how flat or steep I want the gameplay area to be), as well as the general progression (which parts of the layout should be accessed in which order, in a way that complements the structure of the blueprint with interconnections or at least some logic, e.g.. to avoid unnecessary backtracking and other undesired gameplay elements).

Sometimes I do get ideas for individual design elements for a specific level, but I don't start actually drawing them before I have gathered enough of those theme-related ideas to know how, where and when they should be placed and should perform in the map. That includes all the strategic locations, all the more or less strongly sub-themed, recognizable hot spots, the enclosed vs. open spaces depending on what scenario I feel like should come into play, the main puzzles and probably more fundamentals on that level.

What I do improvise is the look of everything, playing with textures, lighting/shading, trimming, palettes and all is fun but past a certain point those considerations are essentially cosmetic, obviously they're crucial to immersion and atmosphere but they shouldn't get in the way of the structure of a good barebones level. Different themes by definition follow different codes but form follows function, for instance one should make a space map because they feel like making big open areas and interesting sector effects, not because they want to use a different set of tiles than they're used to when the design style they're going for with the layout is more typical of the one of a city map with smaller-sized corridors, blockier dead-ends and micro nooks and crannies for instance.

Maybe you're tempted to follow what other people have done before exactly because of that lack of scope - you want to make maps but you don't know how to handle your inspiration being naturally hit or miss (just as much as the next guy's), so you keep insisting even though you're running dry (so for the lack of anything new you either repeat yourself, or what you've seen somewhere else). But sometimes one gets better at something by marking a pause from all the noise and that's when original ideas start coming from within.

I totally know what you mean by envisioning something grand in your head then being unable to reproduce it, I've been there before, even sometimes catching dreams about the stuff I would have liked to build - what my levels should have ideally looked like as I envisioned them, vs. the poor reality of what they actually looked like that I'd then face upon waking up. But that's not a matter of absolute ability, just of a mix of technique and perspective. The more free you'll break from 'bored' mapping all the while letting original ideas come from both everything around you and within, the further you'll naturally bridge that gap.

[ck3D]

Can't edit so double posting, but re-reading this:

Sanek, on 03 June 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

In case of my WIP map, I know where everything should be but when I actually start doing something, everything goes not as planned. It's like you imagined that you'll make work of art but it looks more like kid's drawings in reality. I can see the player going down the street, looking at various buildings and cliffs in the distance, but i just can't visualise it in the editor.

Maybe you should analyze what the differences are between your vision and your results when in such situations. I know it can be pretty hard to pinpoint and intellectualize, as the representation can be pretty abstract. But here for instance with your example of a street scenery, in reality there is literally no reason why it should look different from how you're picturing it - it's just a matter of actually putting in the work, trying and understanding new things - both theoretically and practically - that can help make or break a map, and never settling for anything mediocre according to your own standards.

Maybe you're too focused on the idea of producing at all costs, when you would find more freedom and comfort in just enjoying the ride and letting the inspiration come to you (without making a move until it's really knocking on your door with a detailed warrant).