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SIGIL  "Split from "John Romero and Adrian Carmack's new FPS""

User is online   NightFright 

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#91

They should have done it like in Quake where each episode had its distinct design and designer. But we don't know yet what Romero will do in Sigil. Maybe it's a collection, maybe it's an episode. As far as I am concerned, I'd wish for some kind of continuity between levels this time.


This post has been edited by NightFright: 13 December 2018 - 05:04 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#92

 Nancsi, on 13 December 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

Actually the whole game other than the first 3 episodes of Doom, and Plutonia Experiment (and later, NRFTL) feels like a map collection. Episode 4 is the definition of map collection, and so are TNT and Master Levels. That's the problem when too many are involved with an episode/megawad. Doom 2 is a tricky one, I love the way the first 7 levels were done, but after that it fell apart as a cohesive work. At least in E2 and E3 Sandy did his questionable style coherently, in D2 it was so random. Romero's very similar styled map (Map11, 17 and 26) are in three different parts of the game for example. The last 4 maps somehow managed to get its act together again, and they felt like more cohesive with the infernal theme.



I was never a fan of Doom 2 for this reason, the new enemies were cool, but it wasn't really a new game. I guess they made it because the original Doom didn't sell well enough? There was some business reason they did it like that AFAIK. But you can tell they really cared about making Doom a cohesive experience, and D2 is just "lets go nuts".

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 13 December 2018 - 05:57 AM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#93

Doom 64 is basically a true Doom II. It's completely different, takes place after Doom 1, has entirely different mechanics, a new weapon, all new graphics, new maps, new textures, etc. Doom II could be a massive mod.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 13 December 2018 - 06:12 AM

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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

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#94

One of the biggest issues for me is the texture set. There's just not enough variety for the three themes/chapters. The space port, city, and Hell ares do not feel quite distinct enough. The first two are samey, and the second one does not feel like much of a city.

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#95

 Commando Nukem, on 13 December 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

One of the biggest issues for me is the texture set. There's just not enough variety for the three themes/chapters. The space port, city, and Hell ares do not feel quite distinct enough. The first two are samey, and the second one does not feel like much of a city.


Yep, I concur. I actually never played Doom to completion (any version) until last year. I guess that's like speaking heresy here, but what can I say? When I was growing up, the Build and Quake engine games were all the rage. My friend had Doom 2 and it felt antiquated compared to those. No jumping AFAIK, no looking up and down, the samey textures, etc. I finally gave Ultimate Doom a shot last year and loved it. Just the fact that it came out a year after Wolfenstein 3D and had all the elements we'd come to know from shooters. And you actually felt a real sense of "place" because the chapters all felt different.

Edit: Meant Ultimate Doom, not Final doom.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 13 December 2018 - 07:53 AM

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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#96

 Commando Nukem, on 13 December 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

One of the biggest issues for me is the texture set. There's just not enough variety for the three themes/chapters. The space port, city, and Hell ares do not feel quite distinct enough. The first two are samey, and the second one does not feel like much of a city.


Doom's texture set works best for canyon/medieval stuff and hell. I think vanilla textures worked brilliantly in NRFTL, except maybe in the first level, which was a techbase, but like all techbases in Doom, it doesn't have the feel. In that respect, Duke's texture set is nice complement as it works best for cities and bases, while it's less impressive for nature/canyon/medieval/infernal stuff. Duke enemies always felt a bit out of place in those areas, just like the demons of Doom felt awkward in cities.
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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

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#97

Well With Doom it worked fine because you had three distinct and focused templates that the maps were designed and textured to fit very specifically, and it was a little narrower. Moonbase. Moonbase with Hellish corruption. Hell.

Doom II desperately needed some city textures/flats/sprites. Maybe not to the level of Duke 3D, of course, but just something more evocative of a city. They were incredibly abstractive with the design in Doom II.

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#98

I guess stuff like Brutal Doom's level enhancement script will solve the problems with visual variety though and the mod has the option for the original gameplay so you know, it's not a biggie.
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User is offline   axl 

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#99

 Nancsi, on 13 December 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

Actually the whole game other than the first 3 episodes of Doom, and Plutonia Experiment (and later, NRFTL) feels like a map collection. Episode 4 is the definition of map collection, and so are TNT and Master Levels. That's the problem when too many are involved with an episode/megawad. Doom 2 is a tricky one, I love the way the first 7 levels were done, but after that it fell apart as a cohesive work. At least in E2 and E3 Sandy did his questionable style coherently, in D2 it was so random. Romero's very similar styled map (Map11, 17 and 26) are in three different parts of the game for example. The last 4 maps somehow managed to get its act together again, and they felt like more cohesive with the infernal theme.


I agree completely. One of the strengths of Doom 1 is that each episode has its own theme. This is the same with Plutonia and NRFTL (episodes in Duke Nukem 3D, Blood and Quake also have these distinct themes).

Doom 2 on the other hand feels like a mess. The first levels are quite nice... but then it just seems to fall apart. The fact that most levels all have the same colors (brown, grey dark, ...) also makes the level design feel boring. The only exceptions being the Romero levels (Tenements, O of Destruction, Industrial Zone, ...).

I really hope that SIGIL becomes very popular so that Romero decides to make a mappack for Doom 2...

This post has been edited by axl: 13 December 2018 - 11:04 AM

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User is online   BlitZ 

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#100

 NightFright, on 12 December 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

Romero also once said that for Doom II's 25th anniversary, he wanted to make a revised edition with improved versions of the maps. I guess that won't happen since Bethesda won't let him.

Romero could possibly be using interest in SIGIL as leverage with Bethesda for a 25th Anniversary release of Doom 2. Bethesda loves to re-release shit so I wouldn't put it off the table.

 thricecursed, on 13 December 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

I was never a fan of Doom 2 for this reason, the new enemies were cool, but it wasn't really a new game. I guess they made it because the original Doom didn't sell well enough? There was some business reason they did it like that AFAIK. But you can tell they really cared about making Doom a cohesive experience, and D2 is just "lets go nuts".

It's shocking to me just how much people don't understand Doom 2. I started to realize this when people were puzzled as to why Romero chose to do a map pack for Doom, instead of Doom 2.

Doom is a perfect game because it's tightened up as much as possible, it's basically the perfect game. It's an action packed version of Chess with blood and guts and rock music and guns. Doom 2 is an incredibly unbalanced game because it's clear id's intentions with the game were to make it as hard and as frustrating as possible. All of the new levels and enemies are expressly made to be difficult, not to be fun. The only enemies that actually fit in with the original roster are the Hell Knight and the Heavy Weapons Dude (who may pack a punch with the chaingun but a well placed shotgun blast easily takes him out.) The rest of the enemies are overpowered, and the Megasphere and the Super Shotgun were added as a way to balance that out. A well placed SSG blast is basically the same amount of damage as an RPG. Doom 2 would be unplayable without the Super Shotgun.

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This post has been edited by Jimmy 4k: 13 December 2018 - 04:42 PM

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User is offline   ReaperAA 

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#101

 Jimmy 4k, on 13 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

It's shocking to me just how much people don't understand Doom 2.


Indeed it is shocking to me how some people(like u) don't understand Doom 2. New the monsters are more powerful because it is SUPPOSED to be harder than Doom 1. Doom 1 only has either hitscan enemies or simple projectlie enemies whereas the new monsters of Doom 2 added much more variety to the monster roster for example:
1) Monsters that fire in a spread (mancubus)
2) Monsters that fire in a straight line/ suppression fire (arachnotron)
3) Monsters that fire homing prejectiles (revenants)
4) Monsters that spawn/revive monsters (pain elemental, Archviles)


Also Doom 2 is not imbalanced. YES it is hard but that's because some people found Doom 1 too easy, even on UV (Nightmare difficulty was added in Doom 1 as a joke response to such people). And besides u get the SSG to deal with enemies faster.

Now speaking about level design. Here I agree that Doom 2 levels are not asthetically pleasing and the devs could have done a better job. But thankfully there is a mod called "HontE Remastered" for GZdoom that gives the levels a visual uplift using zdoom-isms.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#102

 Jimmy 4k, on 13 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

Romero could possibly be using interest in SIGIL as leverage with Bethesda for a 25th Anniversary release of Doom 2. Bethesda loves to re-release shit so I wouldn't put it off the table.


It's shocking to me just how much people don't understand Doom 2. I started to realize this when people were puzzled as to why Romero chose to do a map pack for Doom, instead of Doom 2.

Doom is a perfect game because it's tightened up as much as possible, it's basically the perfect game. It's an action packed version of Chess with blood and guts and rock music and guns. Doom 2 is an incredibly unbalanced game because it's clear id's intentions with the game were to make it as hard and as frustrating as possible. All of the new levels and enemies are expressly made to be difficult, not to be fun. The only enemies that actually fit in with the original roster are the Hell Knight and the Heavy Weapons Dude (who may pack a punch with the chaingun but a well placed shotgun blast easily takes him out.) The rest of the enemies are overpowered, and the Megasphere and the Super Shotgun were added as a way to balance that out. A well placed SSG blast is basically the same amount of damage as an RPG. Doom 2 would be unplayable without the Super Shotgun.


Hell Knight is definitely missing from original Doom. I hate to see Barons everywhere with his high HP.

I also don't mind Mancubi and Arachnotrons. They have their own shooting stengths, and they are not unfair at all. Also, Arachnotrons are relatives to the SM, which made the boss belong to this game more than in UDoom.

Chaingunners are terrible, but they are good additons as they are in the class with the other two former human types.

Pain elemental serves as a void between Cacos and Lost Souls. They are tricky and sometimes unfair, but you know, we have a relative to Cacos, and LS makes more sense placed on maps with PE in company.

Now, Revenants and Archviles should go to hell. I hate them with passion.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 14 December 2018 - 01:21 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#103

 Jimmy 4k, on 13 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

Doom is a perfect game because it's tightened up as much as possible, it's basically the perfect game. It's an action packed version of Chess with blood and guts and rock music and guns. Doom 2 is an incredibly unbalanced game because it's clear id's intentions with the game were to make it as hard and as frustrating as possible. All of the new levels and enemies are expressly made to be difficult, not to be fun. The only enemies that actually fit in with the original roster are the Hell Knight and the Heavy Weapons Dude (who may pack a punch with the chaingun but a well placed shotgun blast easily takes him out.) The rest of the enemies are overpowered, and the Megasphere and the Super Shotgun were added as a way to balance that out. A well placed SSG blast is basically the same amount of damage as an RPG. Doom 2 would be unplayable without the Super Shotgun.

But trooper, that's exactly why Doom 1 needs the bullshit level design of Perfect Hatred and the like to pose a challenge: the design is a bit too clean, too easy to understand and with that the mechanical challenge is too easy to overcome. Doom 2 solves this problem by introducing enemies that demand a slightly more skilled execution of the Doom 1 mechanics, that's literally all it does. As a result Doom 2 is more challenging on a mechanical basis, that game can whoop your ass simply with its enemy configurations instead of relying on overly complex, puzzle-like level design. It's tougher than the first game for sure but that's the beauty of it: the challenge is just right and no matter how many times you've played through all the maps there will always be a bit of struggle in a new playthrough. To me that's what keeps the game interesting and that's why Doom 2 is my go to Doom game.
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User is online   Ninety-Six 

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#104

(except the parts where your autoaim won't shoot a chaingunner jut out of range but he can pelt you until you die)
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User is offline   ReaperAA 

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#105

Agreed with Zaxx, doom 1 is only challenging when the level design is cramped and bullshit like Perfect Hatred. If the player has space to move then things become too easy. But with the beastiary of doom 2, things get challenging and open space does not mean safe haven
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User is online   NightFright 

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#106

 Jimmy 4k, on 13 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

[...] Doom 2 is an incredibly unbalanced game because it's clear id's intentions with the game were to make it as hard and as frustrating as possible. [...]

Pretty much this, actually. There are no words to describe how annoying Revenants, Archviles and Mancubi are in D2. Of these three, the Mancubus is probably still the most acceptable one since he moves very slowly and his projectiles are KIND OF easy to dodge (if he there aren't too many of them). However, all these enemies tend to appear in packs, which is exploited till the breaking point in various slaughter pwads out there. I have no idea how people willingly go through the ordeal to face hordes of these horribly overpowered enemies. I mean sure, BFG zerging is always possible, but is that really fun? For me it's not. Often this gameplay ruins otherwise perfectly designed maps or even whole wads for me, a real pity. On the other hand... may just as well play with boost mods like Nevander's Swift Slaughter which are supposed to ease the symptoms of such insanity.

Side note regarding the Super Shotgun: Sure, this thing is slow AF, but I'm one of those guys who keeps using it most of the time in any D2-related project if it's available. Just too powerful to ignore, even though it's shitty if not used on short range targets.

Anyway, my hope is Romero will implement proper lower difficulty settings so that "average" players like myself can also enjoy. Since SIGIL is meant for D1, all issues regarding D2 will be avoided, though.


This post has been edited by NightFright: 14 December 2018 - 03:46 AM

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User is offline   HulkNukem 

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#107

 thricecursed, on 13 December 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

I was never a fan of Doom 2 for this reason, the new enemies were cool, but it wasn't really a new game. I guess they made it because the original Doom didn't sell well enough? There was some business reason they did it like that AFAIK. But you can tell they really cared about making Doom a cohesive experience, and D2 is just "lets go nuts".


Doom 1 sold extremely well, are you kidding? It was selling more than Windows 95 was!
The reason they did Doom 2 was because Carmack was still writing the Quake 1 engine and they couldn't start making anything for it so they decided to just make a new Doom (which Romero went on record saying they weren't super thrilled and were itching to move onto Quake which might be why Doom 2 feels less cohesive) to profit from.

This post has been edited by HulkNukem: 14 December 2018 - 06:26 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#108

 HulkNukem, on 14 December 2018 - 06:24 AM, said:

Doom 1 sold extremely well, are you kidding? It was selling more than Windows 95 was!
The reason they did Doom 2 was because Carmack was still writing the Quake 1 engine and they couldn't start making anything for it so they decided to just make a new Doom (which Romero went on record saying they weren't super thrilled and were itching to move onto Quake which might be why Doom 2 feels less cohesive) to profit from.


Yeah, I thought it was Doom 2 that sold better than Windows 95, my bad. So that's the reason - interesting!
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User is offline   VGA 

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#109

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_II

Quote

Unlike Doom, which was initially only available through shareware and mail order, Doom II was a commercial release sold in stores.


Doom sold like hot cupcakes with the shareware model and they wanted to do a retail release. So they released Doom 2 and raked in the money. And then they re-released the original Doom with an extra episode as The Ultimate Doom, yet another retail release which sold a LOT.
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#110

 Ninety-Six, on 14 December 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

(except the parts where your autoaim won't shoot a chaingunner jut out of range but he can pelt you until you die)

Here's a solution: just disable autoaim in GZDoom.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#111

 NightFright, on 14 December 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

Pretty much this, actually. There are no words to describe how annoying Revenants, Archviles and Mancubi are in D2.

So just because those enemies can be tough to deal with saying that Doom 2 is unbalanced is warranted? Nope, a lack of balance would indicate that those enemies, the super shotgun or any kind of additional gameplay mechanic doesn't work as part of the overall design. The reality is quite the opposite: you are well equipped to deal with the stuff Doom 2 throws at you. And it's really not the game's fault that a lot of megawads have trap rooms full of mancubi, that shit is the result of hardcore doomers hitting the skill ceiling of the game.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 14 December 2018 - 09:03 AM

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User is offline   axl 

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#112

I have no problem with the tougher enemies in Doom 2. Like i said the first one was a bit too easy. Moreover you get the supershotgun so the resistance should increase. We're talking about demons who are taking over the world. It shouldn't be a cakewalk! My only issue with Doom 2 is the ugly, abstract level design with its ugly textures. It's also supposed to take place on earth, yet nothing really resembles this ...
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#113

Hey, Earth was destroyed by demons, only abstract shapes remain!
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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#114

 Zaxx, on 14 December 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

Hey, Earth was destroyed by demons, only abstract shapes remain!


The devil contracted Salvador Dali and MC Escher to do the redesigning.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#115

 thricecursed, on 14 December 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

The devil contracted Salvador Dali and MC Escher to do the redesigning.

Well, they were already in Hell so...
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User is online   NightFright 

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#116

I can enjoy D2 on lower difficulty levels still, make no mistake. Monster placement is 90s style, not overdone like in Plutonia or Deus Vult II.

D2's biggest problem is that it was rather a quick cashgrab than a true successor. They got an offer by GT Interactive for a direct retail release and they just couldn't resist. People wanted more Doom, so they added a few enemies, more textures and one weapon, but the main part was to have 32 new levels. I don't say they didn't care about level quality, but it was more about getting it done. While levels got bigger, the engine stayed the same and brought some machines to their limits which could run the first Doom smoothly. So optimization wasn't a priority, either.

Today we laugh about this, ofc, and while Sigil's levels will be quite huge, many community projects have probably already featured much bigger ones many years ago. I am confident regarding Sigil's level quality since I believe Romero really did it for the fans this time, and his skills with modern Doom editors have certainly improved during and after his two "warmup" maps from 2016.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#117

I don't think D2 needed more time in the oven really. Yes, the overly simplistic graphics is a problem combined with the theme the game is going for but when it comes to the gameplay that doesn't hurt it one bit + I have a feeling that if id had more time we wouldn't have seen maps like Dead Simple in the final product. I mean if you look at that map it's obvious that it was done really fast, chances are that's why it's so great and the game is full of these half-baked but brilliant ideas. The first game taught developers that good level design is important, the second game taught them that it's okay to go crazy sometimes. :D

Anyway I guess I'd love if SIGIL was made for Doom 2 instead of the first game because Romero barely has any presence in Doom 2 so to me a new episode fully done by Romero would be really something special.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 14 December 2018 - 11:35 AM

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User is online   NightFright 

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#118

There are still chances we will also get new D2 Romero levels if Sigil sells. I'm not to blame if it doesn't - my Beast Box order has been placed on Dec 10.


This post has been edited by NightFright: 14 December 2018 - 11:58 AM

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User is online   Ninety-Six 

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#119

 Zaxx, on 14 December 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

Here's a solution: just disable autoaim in GZDoom.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm speaking in terms of horizon lock, the way the game was originally designed. Where autoaim is required.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#120

 Zaxx, on 14 December 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

I don't think D2 needed more time in the oven really. Yes, the overly simplistic graphics is a problem combined with the theme the game is going for but when it comes to the gameplay that doesn't hurt it one bit + I have a feeling that if id had more time we wouldn't have seen maps like Dead Simple in the final product. I mean if you look at that map it's obvious that it was done really fast, chances are that's why it's so great and the game is full of these half-baked but brilliant ideas. The first game taught developers that good level design is important, the second game taught them that it's okay to go crazy sometimes. :D

Anyway I guess I'd love if SIGIL was made for Doom 2 instead of the first game because Romero barely has any presence in Doom 2 so to me a new episode fully done by Romero would be really something special.


Dead Simple is one of the best maps in Doom II. Sure, it doesn't have a sense of place, it's short and symmetrical, but the introduction of the mancubi and the arachnotrons are epic, just like the Barons of Hell in E1M8. Or the Battlelord and the Queen in Duke.

The worst maps are those "city" levels like Dowtown or Citadel. Also many pointless fillers are included without any kind of purpose like Map9-10, Map21-22, Map25.
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