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SIGIL  "Split from "John Romero and Adrian Carmack's new FPS""

User is offline   fgsfds 

  • 182

#61

Yeah, I know. I'm not complaining about Duke statue, it was neat.
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User is offline   NightFright 

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#62

If the statue is supposed to resemble the sprite, it would HAVE to be painted. Doesn't mean it will be, but I would be surprised if it wasn't. Anyway, the music is actually more important to me than anything else in that package (besides the maps themselves, ofc).


This post has been edited by NightFright: 11 December 2018 - 08:10 AM

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User is offline   cybdmn 

  • 14

#63

 fgsfds, on 11 December 2018 - 04:07 AM, said:

Really shitty move to ask people to sink 166 bucks and not showing the statue. Will it even be painted?



Maybe it's not finalized as of now. I would think that it kind of the doom pewter figurines by Reaper, given the fact that the Sigil website says "A pewter statue of John Romero’s head on a spike." and that the beast box is inspired by the id Anthology, which contains an Cyberdemon pewter figurine by Reaper.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 410

#64

 Jimmy 4k, on 11 December 2018 - 01:24 AM, said:

Fuck the naysayers. Romero might be a fucking dork, but he knows level design. This looks good.

Agree with you there, trooper but keep something in mind: if you watched the stream then it will be obvious that this episode is targeted at the hardcore Doom fans. The level design seems excellent but if you want to relive Knee-Deep in the Dead you'll be disappointed because SIGIL looks to be extremely difficult just like Thy Flesh Consumed was.

Quote

Also fuck anyone who complains about the $40 box.

No complaining about the box here, trooper. I just want a digital release because personally I don't care much about physical releases these days... and I don't want to pay 40 bucks for a soundtrack basically (the only thing that interests me apart from the levels that I'll get for free anyway).
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User is offline   VGA 

  • 14

#65

 NightFright, on 11 December 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

Infoflow update (from Doomworld forums):
- Romero stated that if Sigil retail sells well, he will "absolutely" make another map pack for Doom II after that
- Any port besides vanilla (i.e. Chocolate Doom, PrBoom+, GZDoom etc) should be able to run Sigil since maps will be limit-removing

Chocolate Doom can play limit-removing maps?

@Zaxx
They are monetizing the limited physical boxes, you are not their audience obviously.

This post has been edited by VGA: 11 December 2018 - 03:16 PM

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

  • Trooper
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#66

View PostZaxx, on 11 December 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Agree with you there, trooper but keep something in mind: if you watched the stream then it will be obvious that this episode is targeted at the hardcore Doom fans. The level design seems excellent but if you want to relive Knee-Deep in the Dead you'll be disappointed because SIGIL looks to be extremely difficult just like Thy Flesh Consumed was.

TFC isn't that hard. LMAO

View PostZaxx, on 11 December 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

No complaining about the box here, trooper. I just want a digital release because personally I don't care much about physical releases these days... and I don't want to pay 40 bucks for a soundtrack basically (the only thing that interests me apart from the levels that I'll get for free anyway).

Then just pirate it and stop whining.

Coke costs a lot of money you know. - oasiz
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#67

View PostJimmy 4k, on 11 December 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

TFC isn't that hard. LMAO

Yes, it is if you compare it to the rest of the content that was made by id Software. You'd be surprised to see how little of the playerbase actually finished that episode.
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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#68

Well I've beaten it on Ultra Violence numerous times. Fuckin' git gud m8

Coke costs a lot of money you know. - oasiz
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 410

#69

View PostJimmy 4k, on 11 December 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

Well I've beaten it on Ultra Violence numerous times. Fuckin' git gud m8

I wasn't talking about myself.
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User is offline   axl 

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#70

View PostZaxx, on 11 December 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

The level design seems excellent but if you want to relive Knee-Deep in the Dead you'll be disappointed because SIGIL looks to be extremely difficult just like Thy Flesh Consumed was.


Thy Flesh Consumed is not extremely difficult... It's just that the first 3 episodes are just way too easy... Even on UV one can easily blaze through the entire original episodes without any problems... Moreover, it's not that Doom casuals are gonna play Sigil anyway... It will be played by people who've been playing Doom for years now...
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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

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#71

My problem with TFC is less it's high difficulty and more its schizophrenic difficulty curve. Neither Hell Beneath nor Perfect Hatred have any business being the first two levels.


If Sigil's really hard, that's fine by me; I just hope the levels are organized in a way that isn't pulling them out of a hat.
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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#72

Yeah man, I don't know what the fuck Zaxx is talking about. Sigil, especially the box sets, is/are for insane obsessive hardcore Doom players.

Coke costs a lot of money you know. - oasiz
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 410

#73

View Postaxl, on 11 December 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

Thy Flesh Consumed is not extremely difficult... It's just that the first 3 episodes are just way too easy...

Yeah but I'd consider TFC harder than most of what Doom 2 has to offer and I think that's part of why I consider it the weakest official episode ever made. Cause you know, Doom has a really good flow and the first game is easy enough that not saving mid level is absolutely the way to play. If you play TFC on UV like that - which you should btw. because that's how it was intended to be played - you'll find that even Romero's maps can feel extremely unfair because a lot of the episode is basically puzzle solving where you have to figure out what to do to make things happen. It plays like an arcade game that wants to swallow all your coins sometimes and while that's enjoyable if you want that sort of thing I don't think it's a good representation of Doom's gameplay.

And really when it comes to Romero's level design and the foundation for FPS level design in general people mostly mean Knee-Deep in the Dead. Elements of that episode's level design is what you'll see return if you play megawads made by the community and that's why I think that people who are like "wow, a new Romero episode, can't wait to play it!" is kinda betting on the wrong horse here. Let's be frank, the community has made map packs that surpass Romero's level design by a country mile because they were made by people who've been mapping for Doom and only for Doom for ages. You can see that Romero is aware of this fact if you play Tech Gone Bad because that map clearly shows that he stepped up his game by using more modern tools and engine features but it's still not quite that original flow you love and want. It's more hardcore and more complex but it's hard to be creative if you make maps for a game a generation of mappers grew up with.

So I'm on the opinion that SIGIL will be a bit too little too late and kind of a wasted effort because of this and also because Doom is just not really a hardcore FPS by post-Quake standards. It doesn't have that movement, it doesn't have those hitboxes, it doesn't have that strict weapon precision etc. and to me that creates a bit of a mismatch between the level design and the gameplay. Long story short Romero is interested in the hardcore shooter since Daikatana and this map pack just as the KS pitch for Blackroom shows that interest again. So I'd much rather see Blackroom instead of this.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 11 December 2018 - 11:13 PM

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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

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#74

But Romero also made e1m4b after TGG, which in my opinion was a far superior level and had a much better flow. Considering that's his second effort as opposed to his first, I'm optimistic.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#75

View PostNinety-Six, on 11 December 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

But Romero also made e1m4b after TGG, which in my opinion was a far superior level and had a much better flow. Considering that's his second effort as opposed to his first, I'm optimistic.

Yeah, we'll see, so far I can only judge based on the level that was shown on the stream.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#76

As far as my expectations go, these maps will probably offer something that is very rare even in the rich catalog of user made Doom maps.

That something is what I would call a vintage Doom experience with all the respect to the classic style, classic texturing, classic way of putting monsters in the maps, classic, familiar architecture, BUT (and that is a huge BUT) with new ideas injected to them, new, memorable locations to made the levels look fresh.

If you think about it, 99% of the maps are either style imitations (ie. No End in Sight or DTWID series) or maps with grandiose scale, many new, funky colored textures (Ancient Aliens, Shadow of the Nightmare Realm etc), and usually with extremely large number of monsters. And there are those TNT/Master Levels type of megawads with multiple authors (from the Memento Moris to the likes of BTSX), they usually end up being just map packs, without cohesive progression from A to B.

Not that these wads are bad, in fact, there are some amazing work in them, for example Map 6 and 7 from Valiant are some of my favourite levels ever made, but you know that: they are not vintage Doom experience. And I state my unpopular opinion that the levels of DTWID 1 and 2 also didn't feel vintage too. They had Romero and Petersen wannabe maps, the whole stuff felt like when an X Factor singer do a great job at singing someone else's song. Fernando Marquez' Duke episodes are like this as well.

The magic of NRFTL was it's absolute vintage experience (it actually felt like a sequel to KDITD), with the familiar architecture that is not a style imitation, no cakewalk (think about the infamous Vivisection) but also not slaughterish, or extremely difficult. I expect something similar from Sigil, especially after watching the trailer. Also I love E1M4b and E1M8b as both are typical classic style levels with new ideas. These maps would have been rejected from DTWID, because they don't imitate the original levels as convincingly as others on the pack.

IMHO Duke mapping also feels like this. While there are some masterpieces in the game's history, I can't think of anything (other than maybe the last few levels of LRWB Episode 2) like Golden Carnage for example, a totally new idea, yet, you are feeling in 1996 again when playing it. Allen Blum, like Romero is a master of his job, and knows a secret how to make something vintage without being imitation.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 12 December 2018 - 12:08 AM

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User is offline   NightFright 

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#77

View PostVGA, on 11 December 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

Chocolate Doom can play limit-removing maps?

AFAIK it can if you set it up to do so, I am not sure if it's the default setting. I usually use GZDoom as my standard port.


This post has been edited by NightFright: 12 December 2018 - 01:17 AM

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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

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#78

View PostJimmy 4k, on 11 December 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

TFC isn't that hard. LMAO


I don't know. Last time I played it was in cooperative with a friend. We played on Nightmare for the whole of the game, and it was the only episode of the four to actually give us a hard time.

View PostZaxx, on 11 December 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

I wasn't talking about myself.


Of course not. you're literally the greatest.



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User is offline   ReaperAA 

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#79

To be honest, TFC is actually easy, once u get past first 2 levels. Infact its actually easier than the later levels of Doom 2. I hope SIGIL is atleast on the level of TFC, if not harder.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#80

View PostCommando Nukem, on 12 December 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

Of course not. you're literally the greatest.

No, that's Rapha.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#81

View PostReaperAA, on 12 December 2018 - 03:01 AM, said:

To be honest, TFC is actually easy, once u get past first 2 levels. Infact its actually easier than the later levels of Doom 2.

Yeah, it's true that it eases up as it goes along, when I say TFC is hard I mean Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred mostly.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#82

View PostReaperAA, on 12 December 2018 - 03:01 AM, said:

To be honest, TFC is actually easy, once u get past first 2 levels. Infact its actually easier than the later levels of Doom 2. I hope SIGIL is atleast on the level of TFC, if not harder.


The first map is not too bad, if you don't play it on UV difficulty as it has +100 medikit HP. I think it was a simple mistake (or misjudgement) from McGee to not tag those medikits for the hard difficulty.

Romero's two maps however are intentionally hard, particularly the start area in E4M2. E4M6's problem is it's way too trial and error for pistolstart, you need secrets to get more massive weapons, and the map is tricky with lava below as well.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#83

View PostNancsi, on 12 December 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

Romero's two maps however are intentionally hard, particularly the start area in E4M2. E4M6's problem is it's way too trial and error for pistolstart, you need secrets to get more massive weapons, and the map is tricky with lava below as well.

That last part is what worries me about SIGIL too: even the map Romero showed had a lot of narrow pathways sorrounded by lava and partially that's why it took him one hour to complete it. I dunno if I have the patience for that stuff these days.
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User is offline   Lazy Dog 

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#84

is this Doom 25th anniversary world tour?
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#85

Well, it didn't remove the original releases of Doom from any digital platforms. So, no.

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User is offline   NightFright 

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#86

If you want something with Doom that feels like WT, check out "The Alfonzone", one of the Cacoward Runner Ups this year. Much better done than WT, though. And more levels (50+).

I am already glad if Sigil had some kind of coherence, and since it's all done by one person, I am carefully optimistic regarding that.
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User is offline   HulkNukem 

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#87

View PostZaxx, on 12 December 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

That last part is what worries me about SIGIL too: even the map Romero showed had a lot of narrow pathways sorrounded by lava and partially that's why it took him one hour to complete it. I dunno if I have the patience for that stuff these days.


Romero also seemed to intentionally play slower and also refused to save/load and instead always restarted with a pistol. I'm not saying these are going to be piss easy maps, but I'm sure they will be easier than they seemed in the stream (also yes, I ended up putting the stream on while I did some work)
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User is offline   VGA 

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#88

I will be disappointed if they don't have any new art. I want a new title screen, intermission gfx and MIDI renditions of the songs B)

We won't get that but I'm just saying. They sell a whole artbook and none of it (or almost none) will be in the maps?
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User is offline   NightFright 

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#89

Romero also once said that for Doom II's 25th anniversary, he wanted to make a revised edition with improved versions of the maps. I guess that won't happen since Bethesda won't let him.

But well, if he creates D2 levelpack in the spirit of "Romero's Master Levels", it'd be almost the same. In the end, large portions of D2 felt like a map collection, too.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#90

View PostNightFright, on 12 December 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

Romero also once said that for Doom II's 25th anniversary, he wanted to make a revised edition with improved versions of the maps. I guess that won't happen since Bethesda won't let him.

But well, if he creates D2 levelpack in the spirit of "Romero's Master Levels", it'd be almost the same. In the end, large portions of D2 felt like a map collection, too.


Actually the whole game other than the first 3 episodes of Doom, and Plutonia Experiment (and later, NRFTL) feels like a map collection. Episode 4 is the definition of map collection, and so are TNT and Master Levels. That's the problem when too many are involved with an episode/megawad. Doom 2 is a tricky one, I love the way the first 7 levels were done, but after that it fell apart as a cohesive work. At least in E2 and E3 Sandy did his questionable style coherently, in D2 it was so random. Romero's very similar styled map (Map11, 17 and 26) are in three different parts of the game for example. The last 4 maps somehow managed to get its act together again, and they felt like more cohesive with the infernal theme.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 13 December 2018 - 12:24 AM

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