[Ninety-Six]

John Brown, on 08 March 2019 - 07:35 PM, said:

If I may ask, which secrets did you find? I could point you in the right direction. Then again if you already moved onto the next level, yeah it's a moot point. And I agree with you about points-of-no-return in general.

I actually did keep my save in the level.

In spoilers because they're actually spoilers:

Spoiler

I got the secret behind the blue panel in the pool room.

I got the secret shrinker in the gallery.

I got the secret Justin Bailey Samus room.

I got the Mario room.

I got the Atomic health in the vent by Oscar.

I got the shrinker in the sewers where the Octabrain was.

And I got the vent-in-a-vent secret past the Storage Yard.

[John Brown]

I believe the one you are missing is accessed from...

Spoiler

jumping from the top of the fire truck onto one of the windows nearby.

If that isn't it, I'll play through the level again in the morning and see where the last one is.

[Forge]

John Brown, on 08 March 2019 - 09:07 PM, said:

I believe the one you are missing is accessed from...

that's the one he didn't list.
it doesn't show up when using the overlay map, & it's hard to find in mapster - because it's in a ror position.
Walking through the 1st floor underneath it clears the fog-of-war - makes it look like that spot has already been explored.

[MrFlibble]

Trooper Dan, on 06 March 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

I think that would be a wasted effort. Chances are, the process will be improved in the future (AI upscales are a relatively new thing) and then all of the clean up work will have gone to waste.

It would make much more sense to clean up the original low-res sprites (as Jimmy suggested in a different thread). Then any upscales made from them would show the improvements every time.

My logic here is this:

1. I do believe that AI upscaling will probably not surpass human artists in the foreseeable future. There are many details in the low-res video game graphics that are kinda "there" but they have to be basically guessed by human perception from a handful of pixels. The straightforward type of AI upscaling we've dealt with so far can only enlarge these small pixels but is rather limited in the way of adding or enhancing this detail.

An AI network may have a semantic level that allows to replicate the guessing process of human perception, and I think high-profile networks that boast a "hallucination" feature can do something similar but this is mainly designed for photographs featuring real-life objects, whereas video games are full of imaginary objects that have no real-file counterparts. It may be very difficult to get a correct "guess" even if the network has a semantic level of image identification involved in the upscaling process.

2. AI upscaling/Single-Image Super Resolution (SISR) tools are currently developed primarily for photographic images, which are in my opinion fundamentally different from low-res video game graphics:

• when a photograph is scaled down using any conventional sampling method, there's an objective loss of data due to lower resolution; conversely, low-resolution video game graphics are not actually characterised by loss of image data --- rather, the amount of data in the image is limited by the low resolution. In fact, high quality graphics assets have as much detail as possible within these limits, which is achieved by the artist's hand
  
  
• low-res video game graphics, even when derived from higher-resolution originals (scanned hand-drawn art, 3D models or digitised photographs), is usually (post-)processed so that the resulting image fits the target resolution. Details are enhanced, noise is removed. This is completely unlike a straightforwardly downsampled photograph which is the primary subject matter of ESRGAN and similar tools. We know for a fact that the sprites in Duke3D and other Build games were edited after having been scaled down from angles of Chuck Jones' original models
  
  
• there's a difference in scale. Most photographic images, be it portraits or landscapes, have both large features and small details. E.g. if you scale down a portrait you will still see the face, if you scale down a landscape you'll still discern major features like houses, trees etc. Small details will be in many cases reduced to incoherent pixels or disappear completely. Conversely, low-res video game art has both large features and small details that are theoretically intact, unless we deal with images produced by down sampling without post-processing
  
  
• if we're talking about art in VGA mode games, the art there was supposed to be viewed in a roughly 2x the original size on the screen, and that, too affected how the art was drawn and/or edited. There's no similarity to scaled down photographs in this respect, which are supposed to be always viewed in their original resolution
  
  
• finally an important thing to remember is that video game art from the era we're interested in is limited to an indexed palette, which inevitably entails sharper contrasts and generally different colour arrangement (people who better understand this topic may correct me or provide more proper terms) than in a true-colour photograph

3. As said above, the creation of video game art involves port-processing and hand editing. I'm fairly certain that sebabdukeboss20' new monsters that were created from models received at lest some degree of manual refining after the animation frames were produced from high-res models, right? The same is true for the original monster sprites in Duke3D, Shadow Warrior, etc. This post-processing is necessary to adapt each image to its current resolution.

Now why should this be different if we're going in the opposite direction of scaling sprites up? The fundamental change is the same as with scaling down: the image is converted to a different resolution which allows a different level of detail. I may be wrong but I don't believe that any AI network alone will be able to accomlish this task of adjusting the image to the proper resolution as a human artist, at least in the foreseeable future.

[Ninety-Six]

Forge, on 08 March 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:

that's the one he didn't list.
it doesn't show up when using the overlay map, & it's hard to find in mapster - because it's in a ror position.
Walking through the 1st floor underneath it clears the fog-of-war - makes it look like that spot has already been explored.

I had a feeling it was gonna be something like that. But there was so much ROR shenanigans in that map (particularly that first outdoor area) it was really hard to keep track of where I was and where I wasn't (especially I had a lot of trouble remembering how to even navigate that area to get from one zone to another, especially once the barriers go up).

I will even fully admit that

Spoiler

I discovered the Samus secret

purely by accident, as in I only found it because I forgot how to get from one end of the area to the other side and just walked into it thinking it was the way forward.



None of this is to say I hated the map by any stretch, just for the record.

[Phredreeke]

Trooper Dan, on 06 March 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

I think that would be a wasted effort. Chances are, the process will be improved in the future (AI upscales are a relatively new thing) and then all of the clean up work will have gone to waste.

It would make much more sense to clean up the original low-res sprites (as Jimmy suggested in a different thread). Then any upscales made from them would show the improvements every time.

One advantage to doing the edits post-upscale is that you see the result right away.

It's also not necessarily true that the edits couldn't be carried over to a new upscale. If the edits are done at a separate layer and kept separately they could be overlaid on a future upscale (this is how I suggest edits be done to enemies with palswaps, provided the edited area isn't affected by the palswap).

[necroslut]

Not sure if this has been reported, but the urinating pigcops turn into oversized pigcops when they "wake up" - I was running the upscaled version so that probably has something to do with it. (v2.10.3)

[John Brown]

Honestly, "purely by accident" is the best way to find secrets, way better than boring old wall-humping.

[Marya]

Ninety-Six, on 08 March 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

If there was somewhere to go I would have used it.

if you use the overhead map and go into no clip you can see where you are going if you go out of the boundaries of the map.... though for multi level areas it's a bit more difficult....

[Danukem]

Phredreeke, on 09 March 2019 - 04:18 AM, said:

One advantage to doing the edits post-upscale is that you see the result right away.

It's also not necessarily true that the edits couldn't be carried over to a new upscale. If the edits are done at a separate layer and kept separately they could be overlaid on a future upscale (this is how I suggest edits be done to enemies with palswaps, provided the edited area isn't affected by the palswap).

I hadn't thought of that. You should definitely do that then.

necroslut, on 09 March 2019 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not sure if this has been reported, but the urinating pigcops turn into oversized pigcops when they "wake up" - I was running the upscaled version so that probably has something to do with it. (v2.10.3)

Yes, that's an upscale bug. I will fix it. It's one actor changing its picnum into another, and because there is no spawning involved my code doesn't catch it.

[Darkus]

Finished the vacation episode. I did not have any big issues, just two things:

- In the Wavemistress map, I got trapped a couple of time in a Mirror when I was going through a air duct. I'm sure it's because of two overlapped sectors.

- I wanted to play balloon with the girls, but each time I hit them with the balloon, they are fleeing away. Apparently, they don't want to play with me

[Danukem]

Darkus, on 09 March 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

- In the Wavemistress map, I got trapped a couple of time in a Mirror when I was going through a air duct. I'm sure it's because of two overlapped sectors.

Yeah, the vacation episode was built with a lot of SOS, and there are numerous glitches with it. Unfortunately, we can't fix that.

Darkus, on 09 March 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

- I wanted to play balloon with the girls, but each time I hit them with the balloon, they are fleeing away. Apparently, they don't want to play with me

That's because it's technically a projectile. I could add a hack so they don't run away, but I don't think they will be playing with the beachball any time soon.

[Darkus]

Trooper Dan, on 09 March 2019 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yeah, the vacation episode was built with a lot of SOS, and there are numerous glitches with it. Unfortunately, we can't fix that.

I still think it's possible for the mirrors case, by reducing the sector which is on the other side, it was necessary to avoid HOM effect in DOS version, but it's fixed in EDuke32.

[Forge]

Darkus, on 09 March 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

- In the Wavemistress map, I got trapped a couple of time in a Mirror when I was going through a air duct. I'm sure it's because of two overlapped sectors.

What mirror?
You got trapped in dead space outside the perimeter of the ship. Basically in what would be the ocean surface below the stern deck.

I know exactly which ventilation shaft you're referring to and exactly where to crouch to cause the player to clip. That section of ventilation shaft actually goes outside the boundaries of the ship walls.
That cannot be fixed conventionally.
I would have to introduce tror, or redesign the whole aft deck to make it large enough to cover the section of vent duct protruding into space.


The maps that do have mirrors can be adjusted if there are issues with them
(such as the mirror sector in the first map of the episode - which causes clipping issues with a ceiling door and a bed in a certain room)

[Ninety-Six]

John Brown, on 08 March 2019 - 09:07 PM, said:

I believe the one you are missing is accessed from...

Spoiler

jumping from the top of the fire truck onto one of the windows nearby.

If that isn't it, I'll play through the level again in the morning and see where the last one is.

Forge, on 08 March 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:

that's the one he didn't list.
it doesn't show up when using the overlay map, & it's hard to find in mapster - because it's in a ror position.
Walking through the 1st floor underneath it clears the fog-of-war - makes it look like that spot has already been explored.

I found it, and it's no wonder I couldn't. Not only is it ROR shenanigans, but it's a secret that closes after you use the yellow key and the building it's in is destroyed.

That's...oof.

[Darkus]

Forge, on 09 March 2019 - 09:42 PM, said:

What mirror?
You got trapped in dead space outside the perimeter of the ship. Basically in what would be the ocean surface below the stern deck

Argh, my bad. It was in the secret level 'a full house' and not the wavemistress , searched for hours in the wrong map...

In both the toilets, the air duct in passing directly behind the mirrors, that where the sectors overlap.

[Ninety-Six]

Alright, so that

Spoiler

remix of Red 2

is probably one of the most flat-out fun maps I've played in a while. Not that any of the maps were bad at all, but this level of catharsis and carnage is quite atypical for a Duke map and it was extremely refreshing. Made finding all the secrets until I found it completely worth it.

Spoiler

It makes me want to go through the whole Red series again. It's been a while... Damn I wish that got finished.

[Forge]

Darkus, on 10 March 2019 - 05:38 AM, said:

Argh, my bad. It was in the secret level 'a full house'
In both the toilets, the air duct in passing directly behind the mirrors, that where the sectors overlap.

those can be fixed to a certain extent.
I can make the mirror sectors small enough so that the player won't clip out of the vent shaft, but one of the mirrors is right under a bit of the restaurant and I can't do much about that.

[Marya]

So I think this has been answered ,but i'm gonna ask anyway is there any possibility we can get the life's a beach weapon swaps in the AA version?

[Phredreeke]

I don't think you can replace the graphics for just a single episode (hence the enemies being the same as well?)

[Forge]

The intent was to integrate Caribbean into AA, not the other way around.

[Danukem]

Marya, on 10 March 2019 - 01:25 PM, said:

So I think this has been answered ,but i'm gonna ask anyway is there any possibility we can get the life's a beach weapon swaps in the AA version?

No. And that was one of my preconditions for being willing to have the Caribbean episode added to AA in the first place.

Think about it. The only Caribbean weapon art is for Duke's original weapons. What about Shelly's weapons? What about when Duke's weapons get upgraded? There would be a lot of inconsistency, unless there were special Caribbean versions made for everything. Also, keep in mind that the Caribbean weapon tiles simply replaced the originals at the root level. For AA, they would need to replace only for that particular episode, which makes it more work. Similar problems apply to the Caribbean versions of enemies. This is why I was opposed to adding Caribbean at first. Once I realized that others on the team were ok with just converting the maps but not the weapons and enemies, it became a viable option.

[minime637]

I have a nother question this one about d.c. can we get special security forces that are pig men that was crate did by Mech Morphix that is the same as president security forces trying to be lore friendly here???

[sebabdukeboss20]

minime637, on 10 March 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

I have a nother question this one about d.c. can we get special security forces that are pig men that was crate did by Mech Morphix that is the same as president security forces trying to be lore friendly here???

Are you auto translating? I can't understand most of what you're saying.

[Forge]

sebabdukeboss20, on 10 March 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

Are you auto translating? I can't understand most of what you're saying.

he's asking if you're going to import some pig enemy from either critical mass or manhattan project.

[minime637]

no I have bad spelling problem it was create and what I said is in short is President guards that are pigs like pig cop.

[Phredreeke]

I think he means secret service pig cops (wasn't there something like that in an old pre-release screenshot of Duke in DC?)

[Marya]

Trooper Dan, on 10 March 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

No. And that was one of my preconditions for being willing to have the Caribbean episode added to AA in the first place.

Think about it. The only Caribbean weapon art is for Duke's original weapons. What about Shelly's weapons? What about when Duke's weapons get upgraded? There would be a lot of inconsistency, unless there were special Caribbean versions made for everything. Also, keep in mind that the Caribbean weapon tiles simply replaced the originals at the root level. For AA, they would need to replace only for that particular episode, which makes it more work. Similar problems apply to the Caribbean versions of enemies. This is why I was opposed to adding Caribbean at first. Once I realized that others on the team were ok with just converting the maps but not the weapons and enemies, it became a viable option.

Armor piercing water pistol XD.. gatling posion dart shooter, yeah i can see the work right there....

[Danukem]

If you've ever fixed a particularly difficult bug in your code, there's a peculiar kind of feeling involved that's hard to describe. It's a satisfying victory, much like defeating a difficult boss after many tries, but also humbling because you know that the "boss" only existed because you fucked up, and it was only hard to beat because you didn't fully understand your own code.

In this case it was a navigation bug exposed by a combination of jump pads and rooftop control zones. In the Control gametype, players enter a control zone, stay in it long enough to capture it, and then if the zone is not being contested, they should go to another zone that needs attending to. I'm testing this in a map where the control zones are all on rooftops, and the only way to access them is via jump pads from street level. My bots would use the jump pads to reach the control zones, but often they would then jump right off of the roofs before the capture was complete. It took me a long time to sort out, and it's fixed, but damn it was annoying. The root of the problem is that my pathing system requires bots to always go from a node with lower value to a node with higher value. But in Control, once you reach the node at the center of the control zone, you are at the highest value possible in relation to your current goal. So, you can only go to a lower value node from there. I knew this, but I assumed that when it failed to find a higher value node, it would reset the process altogether and just search for the highest value node it could. But no, haha, that's not what it did. It defaulted back to the retard code for dumb actors, in which it basically just latches onto a nearby random node, regardless of value. Hence the randomly jumping off of buildings.

[Doom64hunter]

Marya, on 10 March 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

Armor piercing water pistol XD.. gatling posion dart shooter, yeah i can see the work right there....

Just recolor it green (or yellow) and call it an Acid Pistol