[Zaxx]

Don't worry, according to Fred Schreiber DNF 2001 is 85-90% finished and he made Bombshell so he knows what he's talking about.

Anyay I have to admit that I feel for Geroge, back when he basically live tweeted his stroke I was fucking horrified. So yeah, fuck him for messing up DNF but I wish him well for the future and no Duke game should be made without his involvement (just don't make him the project lead please).

[Zaxx]

Some people are just wild, man:

[OpenMaw]

Zaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 09:56 PM, said:

Some people are just wild, man:

He's right, though. George is being deceptive, here. To say there was nothing to polish, is wrong. To say it was "just some prototypes" is wrong. Charlie already went over what was and wasn't "fake" in the 2001 trailer. We have hours of footage waiting in the wings that shows there was sizable content.

George simply doesn't want to admit, that he fucked up. He fucked up. He let the ball get out of his hands. He fucked up. They could have stopped iterating at any point and just finished from where they were. He chose not to do that until he had no choice, by which time it was too late.

[necroslut]

Commando Nukem, on 01 January 2020 - 10:18 PM, said:

He's right, though. George is being deceptive, here. To say there was nothing to polish, is wrong. To say it was "just some prototypes" is wrong. Charlie already went over what was and wasn't "fake" in the 2001 trailer. We have hours of footage waiting in the wings that shows there was sizable content.

George simply doesn't want to admit, that he fucked up. He fucked up. He let the ball get out of his hands. He fucked up. They could have stopped iterating at any point and just finished from where they were. He chose not to do that until he had no choice, by which time it was too late.

To some extent it comes down to definitions, though. In one sense there's "nothing to polish" if the underlaying game isn't basically "done". And I suppose you could call what's been shown, maybe not "some prototypes", but "a lot of prototypes".

[OpenMaw]

necroslut, on 01 January 2020 - 10:25 PM, said:

To some extent it comes down to definitions, though. In one sense there's "nothing to polish" if the underlaying game isn't basically "done". And I suppose you could call what's been shown, maybe not "some prototypes", but "a lot of prototypes".

I mean that's fair, sure. However, games are always being polished as you're making them. You design, refine, refine again. Tweak, tune, sand off the rough edges... Then when you get to that final stretch it's all polish until you can "go gold."

Perspectives are interesting things and can affect how we see content, but that's just the thing. What I saw was not "just some prototypes" Having fully completed levels, or damn-near fully completed levels, stretches of game. An entire arsenal, a number of enemies, fully functional mechanics, loads of puzzles, secrets, what appeared to be a very solid concept for the progression of the events in the campaign... That's not just "some prototypes." That's a game well into development. Whether the 90% figure is accurate is wholly up for debate, but to say that it was "prototypes" is... Just wrong.

Would you say Lameduke is a prototype? I wouldn't. I think it's too developed. You could easily pause at that point and start polishing that up to get it to the finish line. I'm not saying it would be great or even good. What would it need to be finished, though? Fix and implement the bedrock health/armor/ammo systems that are lacking. Fix the glitches in the engine, the physics. Cut down and refine some level layouts, improve the texture assets, refine the enemies with better art and fully functional AI, and expand the roster with bosses. I'm saying Lameduke is less evolved than DNF in the 2001 builds. I'm talking in terms of focus, design, and mechanics. DNF01 is very clearly a playable game.

If George actually believes his tweets there, then it can only mean he was fully ready to deceive everyone to the max. 3D Realms dropped bank to have David Arkenstone compose the Duke Nukem theme with an actual orchestral arrangement. Above and beyond. Spent the coin to make that 2001 E3 event a time for 3D Realms to "Crash E3" with a Duke cosplay, strippers, huge display. Handing out swag.. On and on. All on, at that time, "some prototypes."

To me, prototype means you're testing out an idea to see if it works, yeah? The early versions of Doom 1 that are just getting the core of the engine and the look of the graphics. Those are prototypes. The internal, never before seen builds of Portal where they were just trying to get the core concept working. Those are prototypes.

I'm going to go with what we've heard here on these very forums, because it matches what my eyeballs saw in the footage. I mean, like I said before, with games development, things are always in various stages and states up until you hit that last chunk of dev time where you just start locking things and saying "Okay, we're pushing forward with these core mechanics, this progression of events, these guns, these monsters, and we're cutting all these things here." As we know, George never let the team get there.


The prototypes would have been the Quake 1 stuff, the early Quake 2 stuff, and the initial unseen development with Unreal 1 where the team was learning the tools and coming up with the the tenements of the game they were making.

[necroslut]

Commando Nukem, on 01 January 2020 - 11:11 PM, said:

Perspectives are interesting things and can affect how we see content, but that's just the thing. What I saw was not "just some prototypes" Having fully completed levels, or damn-near fully completed levels, stretches of game. An entire arsenal, a number of enemies, fully functional mechanics, loads of puzzles, secrets, what appeared to be a very solid concept for the progression of the events in the campaign... That's not just "some prototypes." That's a game well into development. Whether the 90% figure is accurate is wholly up for debate, but to say that it was "prototypes" is... Just wrong.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just trying to give some benefit of the doubt. George would know better than most people how far the game actually would have gotten, even though he's "underexagerrating". There's apparently a lot of people out there (not necessarily on these forums) that are now under the impression that DNF'01 was basically done, and they just shelved it and sat on it for no good reason, and that obviously wasn't the case.

[Zaxx]

I think that trying to quantify the state of the game by saying that there's hours of content, a large weapon arsenal, gameplay mechanics and functionality etc. is just a bad approach. Anyone remember the Half-Life 2 beta? Even better: anyone here played the Half-Life 2 beta? There is a lot of stuff in there: a lot of maps, lots of snippets that were cut along with a bunch of different weapons, the story is different etc. The thing is though that what's there is just not very good, coherency is nowhere to be found, it has a wholly different feel to it than the finished game and long story short there is just no game there. Sure, there's hours of stuff but there is no game... and that's a beta from the early 2000s, imagine how a pre-alpha must have looked like.

[OpenMaw]

necroslut, on 01 January 2020 - 11:42 PM, said:

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just trying to give some benefit of the doubt. George would know better than most people how far the game actually would have gotten, even though he's "underexagerrating". There's apparently a lot of people out there (not necessarily on these forums) that are now under the impression that DNF'01 was basically done, and they just shelved it and sat on it for no good reason, and that obviously wasn't the case.

Agreed, and i'd say the primary reason for that failing is Frederik's fault.

[necroslut]

Commando Nukem, on 02 January 2020 - 12:11 AM, said:

Agreed, and i'd say the primary reason for that failing is Frederik's fault.

Largely, but people also apparently don't understand percentages, and fail to comprehend the difference between 90% and 99.99%.
Though, playing devil's advocate, if we ever get to see some of that stuff released, Fred drumming up demand (outside of these boards) would probably be a factor.

[Kristian Joensen]

Somehow I get the feeling that George and Randy are talking about something different than Fred. I suspect that maybe George and Randy are talking about the specific build behind the the E3 2001 trailer while Fred is talking about whatever build he was showing off in the live stream. I think he mentioned October 2002 previously. A combination of different perspectives and talking about different things could well explain a huge difference of opinion about how complete the game was.

Edit:

I mean think about it, what is "The 2001 build" that George is referring to? Surely there was much more than one build during 2001 and of course continuing into 2002.

[Kerr Avon]

If George is telling the truth about the '2001 build' being just bits and bobs that are largely unconnected, then what was his company doing when they should have been working? Even allowing for the engine change, you'd expect parts of the on-going project to (back then) exist as playable parts of a game, even if some of those parts would later be dropped or altered so much as to be unrecognisable later.

Zaxx, on 01 January 2020 - 08:30 PM, said:

Anyay I have to admit that I feel for Geroge, back when he basically live tweeted his stroke I was fucking horrified. So yeah, fuck him for messing up DNF but I wish him well for the future and no Duke game should be made without his involvement (just don't make him the project lead please).

Did George work on Duke Nukem: Zero Hour? If not, then he's clearly far from indispensable for a good Duke Nukem game.

Lazy Dog, on 01 January 2020 - 08:28 PM, said:

Wat.

Doom i get it, TNC maybe, but the rest? Borderlands, COD????

The PSN site isn't what you'd call properly organised. The main "store front" menu system doesn't even discriminate between first person shooters and top down 2D shooters, you get both types of game, along with other shooters (third person, VR light-gun style games, etc) in the same long list. Far from ideal.

[necroslut]

Kerr Avon, on 02 January 2020 - 06:39 AM, said:

Did George work on Duke Nukem: Zero Hour? If not, then he's clearly far from indispensable for a good Duke Nukem game.

Oh come on, I like Zero Hour but frankly it can't hold a candle to Duke 3D, neither in terms of quality nor ambition.

[Kerr Avon]

necroslut, on 02 January 2020 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh come on, I like Zero Hour but frankly it can't hold a candle to Duke 3D, neither in terms of quality nor ambition.

Duke Nukem: Zero Hour is still a great game, just not a classic. It had the gameplay, the atmosphere, the humour, the levels were fun to explore, and it got the personality, words and attitude of Duke down very well. It certainly didn't have DN3D's originality, as by then the real world style locations, action-movie atmosphere and style, wide variety of weapons, etc, that DN3D had pioneered had become more common in games, so in that sense DN:ZH was mostly going unoriginal, but it used the ideas very well, even down to portraying historic events (albeit inaccurately, but then it's not trying to educate anyone, just entertain).

Maybe George, if he'd been involved, could have brought more innovation to the game, but given DNF's utter lack of anything even remotely original, I don't think so.

[gemeaux333]

The 2001 build was not 90% finished, but more like 9%, it was not a prototype, it was a tech demo, 2 hours of gameplay at best !

[hiczok]

I am fine with 2001 build being just few scenes/rooms. I do not really care and still want whatever there is. The 2001 trailer is my life lol

[necroslut]

Kristian Joensen, on 02 January 2020 - 05:29 AM, said:

Somehow I get the feeling that George and Randy are talking about something different than Fred. I suspect that maybe George and Randy are talking about the specific build behind the the E3 2001 trailer while Fred is talking about whatever build he was showing off in the live stream. I think he mentioned October 2002 previously. A combination of different perspectives and talking about different things could well explain a huge difference of opinion about how complete the game was.

Edit:

I mean think about it, what is "The 2001 build" that George is referring to? Surely there was much more than one build during 2001 and of course continuing into 2002.

I think you're right here, and with "2001 build" George actually means the E3 2001 build and not "anything done before 2006 or so".

[OpenMaw]

gemeaux333, on 02 January 2020 - 09:43 AM, said:

The 2001 build was not 90% finished, but more like 9%, it was not a prototype, it was a tech demo, 2 hours of gameplay at best !

You have nothing to base that on.[

hiczok, on 02 January 2020 - 09:45 AM, said:

I am fine with 2001 build being just few scenes/rooms. I do not really care and still want whatever there is. The 2001 trailer is my life lol

It wasn't, though.

I agree though. Even if it was, the public still deserves to see it for all that it is.

necroslut, on 02 January 2020 - 10:49 AM, said:

I think you're right here, and with "2001 build" George actually means the E3 2001 build and not "anything done before 2006 or so".

The problem with that is we know it wasn't. George knows it wasn;t. The "2001 build" would be whatever they were working on at that time. I don't get this idea that they had a special build just for the trailer. They didn't They would have simply captured the best they had on offer and widdled that down to a couple minutes for the trailer. They didn't show off the 2001 stuff like id did with Doom 3, or Valve HL2. That's the only reason you'd need a purpose-made build of the game, is if you were going to show it off in real time and needed to have very specific things working. That isn't what the 01 trailer represents. Charlie has already told us what was and wasn't legitamite gameplay in the trailer. Most of it was. Most of that was playable for extended periods in the stream event that Fred did.

[Kristian Joensen]

"The problem with that is we know it wasn't. George knows it wasn;t. The "2001 build" would be whatever they were working on at that time"

Yes, but the trailer would have footage from one of the most recent builds from around E3 2001. I think that was in May. If the build that Fred showed was from October 2002, it could certainly be more complete than whatever they had by May 2001.

[Altered Reality]

What a goddamn liar and coward.

A liar, because he insists the pre-real-time-lighting version was "A video and prototype segments", when we have proof it wasn't.
A coward, because when I pointed out people were already convinced in 2002 DNF was doomed and 3DRealms' reaction was to ban them from the forum... his reaction was to block me.

[necroslut]

Commando Nukem, on 02 January 2020 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem with that is we know it wasn't. George knows it wasn;t. The "2001 build" would be whatever they were working on at that time. I don't get this idea that they had a special build just for the trailer. They didn't They would have simply captured the best they had on offer and widdled that down to a couple minutes for the trailer. They didn't show off the 2001 stuff like id did with Doom 3, or Valve HL2. That's the only reason you'd need a purpose-made build of the game, is if you were going to show it off in real time and needed to have very specific things working. That isn't what the 01 trailer represents. Charlie has already told us what was and wasn't legitamite gameplay in the trailer. Most of it was. Most of that was playable for extended periods in the stream event that Fred did.

Kristian Joensen, on 02 January 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

"The problem with that is we know it wasn't. George knows it wasn;t. The "2001 build" would be whatever they were working on at that time"Yes, but the trailer would have footage from one of the most recent builds from around E3 2001. I think that was in May. If the build that Fred showed was from October 2002, it could certainly be more complete than whatever they had by May 2001.

This is what I meant. Not that there was a specific E3 build, but that the "2001 build" means 2001 and not 2002 or 2003, even though it's the same "era".

[Zaxx]

Kerr Avon, on 02 January 2020 - 08:04 AM, said:

Maybe George, if he'd been involved, could have brought more innovation to the game, but given DNF's utter lack of anything even remotely original, I don't think so.

Hey, we got a shitty level with no gameplay where you had to walk around collecting vibrators and shit, that was original.

[OpenMaw]

necroslut, on 02 January 2020 - 11:43 AM, said:

This is what I meant. Not that there was a specific E3 build, but that the "2001 build" means 2001 and not 2002 or 2003, even though it's the same "era".

I just have to repeat myself then and say that Charlie has told us what was and wasn't playable in the 2001 trailer, and that it was much more than just what the trailer showed. So the prototypes line still doesn't fit. Not to my thinking.

Zaxx, on 02 January 2020 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hey, we got a shitty level with no gameplay where you had to walk around collecting vibrators and shit, that was original.

Indeed.

On the subject of Time to Kill, Zero Hour, and Manhattan Project I know at least Scott Miller was popping his head in to check on the games and keep QA going. I'm pretty sure George was also keeping up on Time to Kill and Zero Hour himself, giving feedback and so on.

[necroslut]

Commando Nukem, on 02 January 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

I just have to repeat myself then and say that Charlie has told us what was and wasn't playable in the 2001 trailer, and that it was much more than just what the trailer showed. So the prototypes line still doesn't fit. Not to my thinking.

I know that. But IIRC (and I might not), he also said that a lot of the stuff at that time was "disconnected", many things were spread out over various test (or prototype) levels rather than a coherent whole. I don't have any quotes though, and it was a while ago, so I wouldn't swear on it.
Of course, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been brought together – DNF'11 appeared to have been in that same disconnected state until Triptych basically. But going by what you and others have said about the stream (that I haven't seen), it doesn't seem to have been true anymore at the point that build was made.

Quote

Indeed.

On the subject of Time to Kill, Zero Hour, and Manhattan Project I know at least Scott Miller was popping his head in to check on the games and keep QA going. I'm pretty sure George was also keeping up on Time to Kill and Zero Hour himself, giving feedback and so on.

I remember both Scott and George being listed in the credits with a role like that, though that might not mean much.

[Mark]

I'm all for the community getting everything from the project regardless of what state its in. I am curious about something. How many people here know the old Unreal editor well enough to give us a good map or mods? How many are seriously intending to learn it? Granted it might attract a few from outside duke4 but the whole thing might die a quick death after the hype dies down. Like the alpha and beta versions of other Build games.

[OpenMaw]

I don't think anyone has any major intentions in that regard. It's not even a foregone conclusion that DNF 01 could still support the classic Unreal ED. It was just assumed at the time that it would.

For me this is about enjoying the trip down memory lane. Stopping and smelling the unfinished roses. Looking through the assets and seeing what was going on. I'm not really expecting or interested in some kind of a community building themselves up around DNF 01 to build content for it. Though, i'm sure if some people put their minds to it they could probably do really cool stuff. Unreal ED is very versatile.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Commando, just curious, out of the footage you've seen, was there a specific scripted setpiece or moment that caught your attention the most? Did you see any day time sections?

[Zaxx]

Mark, on 02 January 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

I'm all for the community getting everything from the project regardless of what state its in. I am curious about something. How many people here know the old Unreal editor well enough to give us a good map or mods? How many are seriously intending to learn it? Granted it might attract a few from outside duke4 but the whole thing might die a quick death after the hype dies down. Like the alpha and beta versions of other Build games.

Why even think about stuff like this though? The game is clearly not in a state where it could be enjoyed as a videogame per se, just as a curiosity of what could have been but ultimately never was.

The main thing though: we're never getting DNF 2001, like the most we can hope for is that somebody posts that stream somewhere for all to see but the build itself will never pop up online UNLESS somebody leaks it (and nobody's leaking it). Even if the Duke Collection Pitchfrod was talking about 2000 years ago becomes a reality based on his tweets the most you can expect is a stripped down "virtual museum tour" where you'll be able to look at parts of maps and assets.

[OpenMaw]

Mr. Tibbs, on 02 January 2020 - 04:04 PM, said:

Commando, just curious, out of the footage you've seen, was there a specific scripted setpiece or moment that caught your attention the most? Did you see any day time sections?

I didn't get to see any daytime stuff, no. I didn't get to see the Vegas strip either. That was new for me as well.

Everything I saw was interiors, or exterior at night with rain fall. Early to mid game stuff. The Lake Mead stuff, the shanty town, all that I was not shown. Wieder has gone on record as to how much went into those though so coupling what I saw with what I didn't see tells me a lot.

As to specific set pieces. There are two separate scripted events that occur on the way to the military base. That hover car that drives by the EDF soldier in the trailer? In the footage I saw that dude isn't there, but on loading that map, that hover car goes blazing down the road, and smashes into the entrance to the base, BOOM. I'm not sure if the this second event is tied in or if it happens independently, but right after the vehicle explodes there's a flash of lightning that hits the road sign above and lights the whole scene up.

Going down the road, there's another flash of light and suddenly there's a fireball heading towards you. It looks like a stealth bomber was trying to take off from the base only to get blown out of the sky. It crashes off the side of the road in a huge explosion. Then you get ambushed by "mutant" dogs and EDF soldiers in desert camo.

Think of Half-Life 2's chapters. Now imagine you can play Black Mesa East, but only two partial maps of Ravenholm exist, and other chapters aren't there at all. Like, you can see roughly how things are supposed to go, but there are big gaps. Freddy was doing lot's of console loads in the stream. So, you can play a big chunk of a chapter, but then hit an area that is simply not done. That's why I contest the entire line that it was prototypes. There are sections of the game that are damn near ready to ship.

[Kristian Joensen]

Where there any things in particular you saw that you recognized from the final game?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Man, I so, so, so want footage of that stream to leak!