[OpenMaw]

Kristian Joensen, on 02 January 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

Where there any things in particular you saw that you recognized from the final game?

I mean that's tricky. In terms of the way the two games play the differences are significant. Duke moves faster, he can carry all his gear. It feels like Duke3D and Half-Life had a baby when you talk about level progression and design. You've got the aforementioned pseudo inventory that feels very obviously like it was taken from Deus Ex. The ShadesOS is actually there and gives you stats on badguys as well as acts like part of the main menu interface.

In terms of specific events? There's an elevator section in LK that is similar to the one Duke faces in DNF2011. Though there's no screaming chick and no shrunken shenanigans. You're mostly just navigating the map normally. Trying to escape. There's a lot more to explore. You can go into places that would be off limits in the 2011 version. Swim with the fishes, fuck with things, find secret rooms, and such.


There's no prequel stuff in the 2001 version. You're straight into the casino-hotel, starting in the penthouse, all Hell is already breaking loose pretty much from the start. I suppose back then the "need" for a prequel section wouldn't have been even considered since we were only a few years out from Duke 3D and he was still very fresh in the gaming public lexicon.

I'd say the better question is how things contrast. Lot's of the big beats/concepts are shared, but the way each iteration of the game executes them is very very different.

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on 01 January 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

I just wonder why stuff like that wouldn't be kept in a seperate folder that would be easier to access. I'm no stranger to making a mess in my HDD's though. So I can understand that, too.

Some of the porn was a gameplay feature. *cough*

Commando Nukem, on 01 January 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

For us it's like finding buried treasure, but for someone who actually made some of the stuff we're looking at? Any... Any thoughts?

If you press use on the guy in the bathroom of the stripclub, I spelled faggot wrong.

Kristian Joensen, on 02 January 2020 - 05:29 AM, said:

Somehow I get the feeling that George and Randy are talking about something different than Fred.

God this topic can be exhausting. Yes. 100% what you are saying.

George's recent tweets are trivial evasion. Video wasn't a mistake, we did a good job. We had a nice game that could have been released with some focus. /shrug /sigh

[Mr. Tibbs]

Charlie, just trying to rejog my memory. Did you leave 3DR before Brian Cozzens, Keith Schuler, Scott Alden, etc, or was there an organized collective walkout like back in 1997? Was there anything specific that lead to that decision, or was it just the accumulation of 8ish years of production frustrations?

[OpenMaw]

OccludeOlga, on 02 January 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

Some of the porn was a gameplay feature. *cough*

Like the porno mags in the final game boost your ego?

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on 02 January 2020 - 08:55 PM, said:

Like the porno mags in the final game boost your ego?

At one point you could customize your "SOS Backdrop" from a list of provided images.

Mr. Tibbs, on 02 January 2020 - 08:39 PM, said:

Charlie, just trying to rejog my memory. Did you leave 3DR before Brian Cozzens, Keith Schuler, Scott Alden, etc, or was there an organized collective walkout like back in 1997? Was there anything specific that lead to that decision, or was it just the accumulation of 8ish years of production frustrations?

The closest thing to a walkout in all the years of DNF development was the 2006 defection to Gearbox where about 1/3rd of the DNF team became the founding members of the Aliens: Colonial Marines team (yet did not ship A:CM). I mention it that way because Alden wasn't part of that departure. There were a few months of heavy departures, with the biggest chunk heading to Gearbox in 2006.

EDIT: Honestly, the DNF -> A:CM departure team had more to do with the success of Borderlands than anything else. Ruben, Keith, Cozzens, Cole... all godsends to that game. I left GBX to work on Modern Warfare 2 Spec Ops during the time the rest of the ex-DNF folks were making Borderlands a classic.

[Noddy]

Is the footage posted legit? I posted it in several FB groups, and some people said it's a cleverly disguised WAD, while others said you can see that the casino is from Rainbow Six Vegas. I don't care if it's true or not, but I would like to know if it's legit?
Even if it isn't, I'm happy that someone put the effort to create this.

[PokeThePower]

Every clip/shot posted the past few days is legit.

[KareBear]

Charlie I have a few questions about 2001 era DNF for you,if you don't mind.

How big of a role "Grey" aliens were to play in 2001 era DNF,were they intended to be enemies or just passive npcs?

Paul Richards drew quiet a few concepts for them.

https://imgur.com/a/oxAZGf9

Seeing Greys in documentaries used to scare me a little as a kid so when I saw this screenshot in a magazine the thought of killing them in an fps with a chainsaw appealed to me.

http://legacy.duke4....shots/old/2.jpg

Since they most likely were intended to only feature heavily in the final Area 51 part of the game I guess it's possible they were not implemented at all and that screenshot was just a mock up.

It seems to me the pregnators from the released version of DNF were to successors to the Roaches/Snatchers from the 2001 era since they also hatch from eggs,can latch on the players face requiring button mashing to remove and I suspect they are perhaps based on the same code.

is that correct?

Speaking of code being reused,perhaps the Railgun in the released game is based on the 2001 era laser sniper rifle?

There are concepts for the Railgun in the DNF Guide Book I have but I think they were drawn by an artist who was hired after you left.

Can you recall what these lightning-based creatures Paul posted concepts of were called or if they were ever implemented into the game?

http://autodestructd...hives-pt-1.html

Was the Mega-Octabrain ever implemented?

I assume it was supposed to be a boss similar to the Octa King from the released version of DNF.

http://www.autodestr...gaoctabrain.jpg

Was there ever any intention to have Bombshell be a playable character?

Like there appeared to be for the released game before the 2009 layoffs.

https://dukenukem.fa...iki/Levels_(DNF)

Were the DN3D Assault Troopers ever implemented as some people think this image posed on the official DNF blog implies?

http://www.dukenukem...izTrooper02.jpg

[Aristotle Gumball]

The fact that this build seems to have gone for a weird meld of DN3D and Deus Ex is it's biggest draw for me. DX 1 is my favorite game pretty much. I also think there'd be enough interest from modders to finish/further develop whatever there is, so the concern that we'd be getting some unplayable janky bullshit is entirely unwarranted.

[necroslut]

thricecursed, on 03 January 2020 - 09:40 AM, said:

The fact that this build seems to have gone for a weird meld of DN3D and Deus Ex is it's biggest draw for me. DX 1 is my favorite game pretty much.

Is it really so weird, though? Duke 3D already pushed for a more complex, interactive type of FPS.
I thought this was why we were hyped for it – the next step in FPS evolution.

[Aristotle Gumball]

It's the good kind of weird. I expected DNF to be revolutionary too, because DN3D definitely was. The retro shooter stuff is fine, but I think Duke deserves better.

[PokeThePower]

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

How big of a role "Grey" aliens were to play in 2001 era DNF,were they intended to be enemies or just passive npcs?

Sadly almost no meaningful role through all of development. They had a lot of potential cool factor but never went much further than what you've already seen.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

It seems to me the pregnators from the released version of DNF were to successors to the Roaches/Snatchers from the 2001 era since they also hatch from eggs,can latch on the players face requiring button mashing to remove and I suspect they are perhaps based on the same code.

is that correct?

Eh, not really. Just natural evolution of idea that aliens are stealing our chicks. At one point the Pregnator was also a gun. You had to stroke it to shoot it.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

Speaking of code being reused,perhaps the Railgun in the released game is based on the 2001 era laser sniper rifle?

Not that I know of. There's no good reason for the final Railgun to be based on the 2001 blueprint.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

Can you recall what these lightning-based creatures Paul posted concepts of were called or if they were ever implemented into the game?

http://autodestructd...hives-pt-1.html

Those sketches look like the sort of stuff that was being played around with while I was recovering from my car accident... right around the time the dynamic lighting was first going in and there was a big effort to maximize the tech. There were a LOT of creatures that were tried out while I was out. I don't recognize those though, so they might not actually be DNF, or were part of the gigantic pile of sketches he made that most of the team never saw, or I've simply forgotten after almost 20 years haha. Paul was a machine when it came to churning out concepts.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

Was the Mega-Octabrain ever implemented?

No.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

Was there ever any intention to have Bombshell be a playable character?

Not really, no. The idea had come up many times of course but never very far.

KareBear, on 03 January 2020 - 09:25 AM, said:

Were the DN3D Assault Troopers ever implemented as some people think this image posed on the official DNF blog implies?

http://www.dukenukem...izTrooper02.jpg

Yes there was a period of time where the Assault Troopers were nearly identical to the Duke 3D ones in terms of style and behavior.

[Mark]

I was too lazy to pose him like the original pic.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[Ninety-Six]

Never realized how big their heads were until I saw that model.

[Mark]

I thinks its bone not brains.

[PokeThePower]

Tekedon, on 26 December 2019 - 11:39 AM, said:

Did not realise. Wow, very impressive skybox for 2001, with the moving traffic and everything. Looks like it might be real.

Step 1: Go to top of Paris, Las Vegas.
Step 2: Take digital photos.
Step 3: Be clever with, yet utterly simple use of, digital photos.

Getting the Vegas skyline to translate so well with 2001 level technology was one of the most fun things we pulled off.

[OpenMaw]

OccludeOlga, on 03 January 2020 - 11:02 AM, said:

Step 1: Go to top of Paris, Las Vegas.
Step 2: Take digital photos.
Step 3: Be clever with, yet utterly simple use of, digital photos.

Getting the Vegas skyline to translate so well with 2001 level technology was one of the most fun things we pulled off.

One of those really cool features the Unreal came with was the 3D skyboxes which allowed the placement of props and such in the skybox. Some Half-Life modders tried to plug that into Spirit of Half-Life but it seldom worked correctly.

Were the cars on the street below a moving texture or were they low poly models? I'd be surprised if it was the latter given how many hundreds of polygons that would be.

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on 03 January 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

One of those really cool features the Unreal came with was the 3D skyboxes which allowed the placement of props and such in the skybox.

Thats not how the 2001 Vegas skyline was done. It was built "out there" and took up the entire real space of the Vegas strip more or less.

Commando Nukem, on 03 January 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

Were the cars on the street below a moving texture or were they low poly models? I'd be surprised if it was the latter given how many hundreds of polygons that would be.

Panning texture with slightly different rates per lane so it felt a bit more natural.

The Bellagio is just a giant flat masked photo on a 2D surface. Same for the rest of the casinos. The ground texture that connected all the casinos together took a lot of work to get right, but really helped sell the illusion. You can tell the fountain is "really out there" because it rotates awkwardly due to being a screen facing particle system.

[OpenMaw]

Huh! That's really impressive. Actually I guess it makes sense given that the fidelity is so high.

I don't know if anyone ever shared it with you, but there are still bits of the 01 build to be found in the final game. An old, halfway gone texture that is Duke's autobiography, some of the old bits and pieces that were used for the food dispenser, and a very low res, what looks like a reflection map, of the old Vegas skyline.

Was the whole game built that way then? With a 1:1 scale with reality in mind?

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on 03 January 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone ever shared it with you, but there are still bits of the 01 build to be found in the final game.

There's a lot more than that from back then still in the final game, especially when it comes to textures. Some of them were updated for final tech but otherwise were still the same as they were back then.

Commando Nukem, on 03 January 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

Was the whole game built that way then? With a 1:1 scale with reality in mind?

More or less.

[dukefan4evah02]

As someone who is basically expecting nothing in terms of a DNF 2001(er, October 2002) build release, seeing these little tidbits periodically is certainly a spectacle to behold...but the quite the annoyance, to boot. It seems as though Fred S. has unequivocally carried on the 3DR legacy...of incompetencies, broken promises, overzealous ambitions, and unrealistic hype. I actually appreciate hearing him gush about the 1999-2002 era build and describing the epic nature of what 3DR had around the turn of the millennium.

But hosting a livestream on discord, and instructing nobody to record it? Are you freaking kidding me?? And now whining about the screenshot/gameplay leaks tarnishing the chances of us ever getting to play it??? Either he's more naive than Broussard or he(thinks he?) knows exactly what he's doing. I'm going with the latter, albeit still holding true to the craptastic business planning of 3DR's yesteryears.

Perhaps "knowing" somebody is going to be leaking this media whilst showing off to his select audience is his ingenious method of creating a buzz...yet maintaining plausible deniability. I don't put it past him one bit if it turned out he was the leaker, from my past experiences with him(don't care to elaborate).

But maybe I can't complain. Whatever is happening(er, however it might be happening), it's keeping DNF '01 as trending as an unfinished build from near two decades ago could be...which, henceforth, allows for the highest probability of an eventual lea- uh, release.

Regardless, the floodgates appear to be opening. It's kinda like DNF in 2007 all over again. A tiny thumbnail on a gamasutra job listing, a short teaser trailer, off-screen snippets on Jace Hall...the progression of hotly sought after media making their rounds is almost eerily reminiscent of the insufferable hype for, well, DNF. Except this time it's the "real" DNF.

[Futuretime23]

OccludeOlga, on 03 January 2020 - 12:24 PM, said:

There's a lot more than that from back then still in the final game, especially when it comes to textures. Some of them were updated for final tech but otherwise were still the same as they were back then.


More or less.

I remember digging into DNF and finding these SOS upgrades, some of which seem to have their code repurposed for different purposes, namely HeatVision became Duke Vision (ViewMode goes unused, seemingly) and ZoomMode instead of a binocular like thing became a generic zoom in you do with right click (by default). But there's a few that seem to have not been used at all, like the Radar and in particular the EMP_Pulse. I noticed also a shitton of shieldedactor references inside numerous entities in final DNF.
Were enemies meant to have some sort of electric shield that you could disable with the EMP, or was it meant for something else? I'm curious about the EMP because it apparently was even meant to affect machineries like ATMs (there's even an unused sound effect for it rebooting)

(As a sidenote, I appreciate all the DNF info you posted, it's always interesting to hear about what DNF was like and what development of it was like as well )

[dukefan4evah02]

Hearing wieder speak of his firsthand DNF/3DR experiences are both fascinating and hilarious. He really prevents these forums from turning full-on Ghost Town...after all these years he has yet to Desert us. Hopefully someday we'll get to absorb his Lake Mead and sink our teeth into his Slick Willy. His late 90s UnrealEd level designs shouldn't suck like a Hoover(Damn!).

[PokeThePower]

Futuretime23, on 03 January 2020 - 03:53 PM, said:

I remember digging into DNF and finding these SOS upgrades, some of which seem to have their code repurposed for different purposes, namely HeatVision became Duke Vision (ViewMode goes unused, seemingly) and ZoomMode instead of a binocular like thing became a generic zoom in you do with right click (by default). But there's a few that seem to have not been used at all, like the Radar and in particular the EMP_Pulse.

There were a handful of view modes, yeah. Thermal dated from the roach era where you could see them inside of people. It's probably still implemented, though unused, but every single interactive item had a "heat" value as well which allowed items to become visible in Heat Vision for various puzzles. Never really fleshed out but had some promise. You could turn things on and watch them heat up, then turn off and watch them cool down, etc.

I don't have DNF installed currently, but I'm kinda curious if the cheat codes work at all if you enable the console? dncashman (and pretty much all the OG Duke 3D cheats) were re-implemented. More amusingly, dnaha would switch your view mode into a white background and blue pencil drawing rendering style that Pollard implemented for fun... and it would play "Take On Me"... hahah. I'm certain the music was deleted but not sure if the rendering mode survived.

Futuretime23, on 03 January 2020 - 03:53 PM, said:

I noticed also a shitton of shieldedactor references inside numerous entities in final DNF.
Were enemies meant to have some sort of electric shield that you could disable with the EMP, or was it meant for something else? I'm curious about the EMP because it apparently was even meant to affect machineries like ATMs (there's even an unused sound effect for it rebooting)

Everything had the potential to be affected by EMPs, yes. For all its quirks, the system for setting up "dnDecorations" was incredibly powerful. We didn't have access to something like UE4 blueprint or CoD Script, but a combination of UnrealScript, native C++ code, and Kyle Davis making infinite arrays within arrays of structures stable gave an obscene amount of scripting power to designers without needing to write code, and for little effort. I wrote a lot of code, but almost all of it was geared toward giving the other level designers tools to do whatever the hell they wanted. Being affected by an EMP was just another behavior among them all. What ultimately shipped is a very stripped down usage of the system (completely understandable btw).

Futuretime23, on 03 January 2020 - 03:53 PM, said:

(As a sidenote, I appreciate all the DNF info you posted, it's always interesting to hear about what DNF was like and what development of it was like as well )

dukefan4evah02, on 03 January 2020 - 04:08 PM, said:

Hearing wieder speak of his firsthand DNF/3DR experiences are both fascinating and hilarious. He really prevents these forums from turning full-on Ghost Town...after all these years he has yet to Desert us. Hopefully someday we'll get to absorb his Lake Mead and sink our teeth into his Slick Willy. His late 90s UnrealEd level designs shouldn't suck like a Hoover(Damn!).

It's one of the most interesting industry stories, not everyone gets to be a part of something like it. I'm glad to be able to share... and do my best to maintain credibility of having been honest as bits and pieces continue to come to light through the decades.

The real Slick Willy... and Lake Mead with the giant water bowl under the Fathership... were great, lost to history, unfinished missions.

[dukefan4evah02]

OccludeOlga, on 03 January 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

It's one of the most interesting industry stories, not everyone gets to be a part of something like it. I'm glad to be able to share... and do my best to maintain credibility of having been honest as bits and pieces continue to come to light through the decades.

Have you ever considered a tell-all memoir? Seriously. You could change names and even purport it as a "purely fictional" or "loosely based on" retrospective for the sake of avoiding lawsuits, etc. I'd personally kill to see a TV movie or miniseries of this whole thing, a la 'The Gamechangers' or the to-be-released 'Masters of DooM'.

Quote

The real Slick Willy... and Lake Mead with the giant water bowl under the Fathership... were great, lost to history, unfinished missions.

It ain't lost. It's just in hiding for now. But maybe not for......ever?

[HulkNukem]

I remember when Giantbomb played Duke 3D to celebrate DNF being resurrected by Gearbox and Broussard called in and talked to them for a bit and one of the things he mentioned was how he got offers to write a book about the development of DNF and he was thinking about doing it.

Too bad there's too much legal shit surrounding the entire thing at this point and interest has waned.

[PokeThePower]

dukefan4evah02, on 03 January 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:

Have you ever considered a tell-all memoir? Seriously.

Not once. Chatter here is fine just fine.

dukefan4evah02, on 03 January 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:

You could change names and even purport it as a "purely fictional" or "loosely based on" retrospective for the sake of avoiding lawsuits, etc. I'd personally kill to see a TV movie or miniseries of this whole thing, a la 'The Gamechangers' or the to-be-released 'Masters of DooM'.

Right around the time Clive Thompson wrote his wired article there was an aggressive effort to get a book similar to Masters of Doom written. I and pretty much all the other DNF developers would only agree to participate if Scott and George did too. They didn't so it didn't happen. They were right to ignore the offer, all the best stories of life there shouldn't be told, and the actual game under development will eventually stand on its own someday.

dukefan4evah02, on 03 January 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:

It ain't lost. It's just in hiding for now. But maybe not for......ever?

They were never finished. I do think if the depot ever winds up in the public, others will be able to make them far better than I ever dreamed.

HulkNukem, on 03 January 2020 - 06:39 PM, said:

I remember when Giantbomb played Duke 3D to celebrate DNF being resurrected by Gearbox and Broussard called in and talked to them for a bit and one of the things he mentioned was how he got offers to write a book about the development of DNF and he was thinking about doing it.

Too bad there's too much legal shit surrounding the entire thing at this point and interest has waned.

I'm 99.99% sure George will never write, or participate in the writing, of a book about DNF.

[Zaxx]

That's too bad, it would be an interesting read, finally the true spiritual successor to Masters of Doom!

[ryche]

It’s always nice to hear from Charlie and his side of the history of DNF. That game’s development is always interesting to read about.

Some day it would be cool if the all/some of the old builds came out but I doubt it’ll happen. The footage from that stream that’s been posted as clips is really fun to see. I tend to rewatch the old 2001 trailer mainly due to its kick ass music but also to fondly think of what could’ve been.

[PokeThePower]

Zaxx, on 03 January 2020 - 06:56 PM, said:

That's too bad, it would be an interesting read, finally the true spiritual successor to Masters of Doom!

Nah. The overall narrative and story didn't have Doom and Quake. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Much better as a dripfeed of minor events over time.