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Randy-Gearbox Please give us a remastered Duke Nukem Forever using Unreal Engine 4!  "A remaster of the criminally under-rated Duke Nukem Forever"

User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#61

View PostJimmy 4k, on 17 November 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

The only way to get a Duke Nukem game right is to completely ignore story, plot, world building etc. Stop trying to make Duke Nukem dynamic. He kills aliens. Do something more like Doom 2016.


View PostTea Monster, on 17 November 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Humour is a big part of Duke, even if it's just stupid pop/movie references. Without the humour, you just have the Doom Marine.


And with that, you get Duke Nukem 3D.

Okay, seriously, why force the player to go down a certain path? A good Duke Nukem game should have a plot to follow, if the player wants to, but it should also let the player free to do stuff in the game world (killing randomly spawned aliens? Interacting with objects? Looking for secrets?) if they don't want to focus on the plot.

The player should never get the impression that the game is saying "BUT YOU MUST".
Example in Duke Nukem 3D: you like a level, but you killed every alien in it, and you found all secrets. You want to keep doing stuff in that level, BUT YOU MUST hit that button to continue.
Example in Duke Nukem Forever: you want to forcibly remove that guy off your throne, but the whole game world completely stops unless you snap the picture for him. You want to interact with him in the same way you interacted with that Christian Bale expy, BUT YOU MUST perform the only action that will unfreeze the game world.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 17 November 2018 - 04:19 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

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#62

View PostAltered Reality, on 17 November 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

And with that, you get Duke Nukem 3D.

Okay, seriously, why force the player to go down a certain path? A good Duke Nukem game should have a plot to follow, if the player wants to, but it should also let the player free to do stuff in the game world (killing randomly spawned aliens? Interacting with objects? Looking for secrets?) if they don't want to focus on the plot.

The player should never get the impression that the game is saying "BUT YOU MUST".
Example in Duke Nukem 3D: you like a level, but you killed every alien in it, and you found all secrets. You want to keep doing stuff in that level, BUT YOU MUST hit that button to continue.
Example in Duke Nukem Forever: you want to forcibly remove that guy off your throne, but the whole game world completely stops unless you snap the picture for him. You want to interact with him in the same way you interacted with that Christian Bale expy, BUT YOU MUST perform the only action that will unfreeze the game world.

I always thought it would have fit in DNF if you could melee talking NPC's to make them give you the TLDR and let you get on with your day.

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#63

View Postnecroslut, on 17 November 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

I always thought it would have fit in DNF if you could melee talking NPC's to make them give you the TLDR and let you get on with your day.

Indeed, it would have.
It would've worked well for speedrunners, as well as for people like me who want to discover every nook an cranny in a game ("Ooh, look at what happens if you let that guy talk!").

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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There is no darkness, only the absence of light.
There is no cold, only the absence of heat.
There is no faith, only the absence of logic.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#64

View PostTea Monster, on 17 November 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Humour is a big part of Duke, even if it's just stupid pop/movie references. Without the humour, you just have the Doom Marine.


I don't really agree so much. It's more about over the top action. The humour is just a tongue-in-cheek after addition. Necessary for the character for sure and shouldn't be ignored, but not a top priority. Otherwise, any game design proposal will come from the perspective of a comedy or parody and that's just not what Duke is. Which is exactly what DNF got wrong.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 17 November 2018 - 07:36 PM

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#65

View PostTea Monster, on 17 November 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Humour is a big part of Duke, even if it's just stupid pop/movie references. Without the humour, you just have the Doom Marine.

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 17 November 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't really agree so much. It's more about over the top action. The humour is just a tongue-in-cheek after addition. Necessary for the character for sure and shouldn't be ignored, but not a top priority. Otherwise, any game design proposal will come from the perspective of a comedy or parody and that's just not what Duke is. Which is exactly what DNF got wrong.


While humour is important, and the most memorable aspect perhaps, it's not the key. It's the dressing that makes everything work. Just like Total Recall isn't a comedy, neither is Duke Nukem 3D. It has comedic elements, nothing more. What the humour really does is suspend disbelief, it's the occasional reminder that this is a clown world where silly things happen. MusicallyInspired is totally correct. In the case of Duke Nukem 3D the addition of one liners, the central humor of the game, they were LITERALLY an afterthought added to the game when it was basically already complete. It was the finishing touch, but it could have been released as is nonetheless. But this is all besides the point because I never said anything about abandoning the humour. I said to abandon needless exposition. I don't need to know WHY Duke Nukem kills aliens, only that he does.

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#66

The successful games in the franchise were the ones that gave you enough narrative for a setup and context. Duke 3D is the leanest in that regard, if you don't have the manual handy or know to look under Help. It literally is "Damn those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride." That's all you get, and for the most part it's really all you need.

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#67

Unless you played Duke64.

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User is online   Commando Nukem 

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#68

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 17 November 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

Unless you played Duke64.



Right, but that's why I was specifically talking about Duke 3D, because it is literally the leanest in the mainline series for story. Even the side scrollers give you more specific context for the events than Duke 3D does.

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User is offline   Maisth 

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#69

I mainly believe that the storyline in Duke3D worked because it was not shoved right at your face, and also the game does present a clear objective from the very start of the game, kill aliens, along with the completion of the episodes this objective gets much clearer to the point of episode 3 where you gotta fight the mastermind behind the invasion, It's why games like Doom 1 and 2 are such a great example of why focusing on gameplay is better than focusing on the story of the game.

In my opinion, DNF failed mainly for the storyline, I thought that the gameplay and level design were good, but since the story was shoved right at your face and the game had all this drama going on about the president and what not, and not to forget the serious delays between some stages to explain the storyline was a big hit to the game.

Which I believe is why many people who came from Duke3D were expecting more of the same but with updated visuals and upgrades to the gameplay, and not a cheesy leeroy jenkins joke lmao.

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This post has been edited by Maisth: 18 November 2018 - 05:31 AM

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#70

View PostMaisth, on 18 November 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

I mainly believe that the storyline in Duke3D worked because it was not shoved right at your face, and also the game does present a clear objective from the very start of the game, kill aliens, along with the completion of the episodes this objective gets much clearer to the point of episode 3 where you gotta fight the mastermind behind the invasion, It's why games like Doom 1 and 2 are such a great example of why focusing on gameplay is better than focusing on the story of the game.

In my opinion, DNF failed mainly for the storyline, I thought that the gameplay and level design were good, but since the story was shoved right at your face and the game had all this drama going on about the president and what not, and not to forget the serious delays between some stages to explain the storyline was a big hit to the game.

Which I believe is why many people who came from Duke3D were expecting more of the same but with updated visuals and upgrades to the gameplay, and not a cheesy leeroy jenkins joke lmao.


I can think of maybe two areas in DNF that are actually "well" designed levels.

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#71

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 17 November 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

Unless you played Duke64.


Unless I misremember Duke 64 has exactly the same story as Duke 3D, it's just presented differently. Duke 3D does have a fair bit of "story" and "world building", just that most of it is told through scripted scenes (environmental, not talking walking characters), environmental storytelling and the occasional one-liner. The same thing that Half-Life (1) did a few years later, mostly.

View PostMaisth, on 18 November 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

I mainly believe that the storyline in Duke3D worked because it was not shoved right at your face, and also the game does present a clear objective from the very start of the game, kill aliens, along with the completion of the episodes this objective gets much clearer to the point of episode 3 where you gotta fight the mastermind behind the invasion, It's why games like Doom 1 and 2 are such a great example of why focusing on gameplay is better than focusing on the story of the game.

Indeed, and it's a method of storytelling that fit very well with Duke 3D's "open" gameplay. Entrance, exit, how you get there is largely up to you. It's the old-school way of game storytelling where the story is used to serve up the gameplay and "experience", rather than the gameplay being used to "involve" in the story.

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This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 November 2018 - 11:25 AM

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#72

View Postnecroslut, on 18 November 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

Unless I misremember Duke 64 has exactly the same story as Duke 3D, it's just presented differently. Duke 3D does have a fair bit of "story" and "world building", just that most of it is told through scripted scenes (environmental, not talking walking characters), environmental storytelling and the occasional one-liner. The same thing that Half-Life (1) did a few years later, mostly.


Duke64 has a short introduction story told in screenshot slideshow form that recaps the ending of Duke Nukem II. Duke Nukem 3D just plops you in the level.

(1:26)


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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 18 November 2018 - 12:59 PM

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#73

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 18 November 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Duke64 has a short introduction story told in screenshot slideshow form that recaps the ending of Duke Nukem II. Duke Nukem 3D just plops you in the level.

Yes, I know. Apart from the very short single-paragraph recaps of Duke 1+2 (which are kinda superflous IMO) it's essentially the same as the background story from the help screen (or manual) in the PC version. As I said - same story, somewhat different presentation.

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#74

Yes. I never said they were different. I said Duke Nukem 64 gives you more of a story before starting you off. Commando Nukem said "It literally is "Damn those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride." That's all you get, and for the most part it's really all you need." and I was just pointing out that you get a little more than that in the N64 port. That's all.

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#75

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 18 November 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Yes. I never said they were different. I said Duke Nukem 64 gives you more of a story before starting you off. Commando Nukem said "It literally is "Damn those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride." That's all you get, and for the most part it's really all you need." and I was just pointing out that you get a little more than that in the N64 port. That's all.


Which is fine and all, but I was specifically talking about Duke 3D as a case of it's own. Duke Nukem 3D is the leanest in this regard. Duke 64 to me is a separate case because it was also playing to a different audience, along with a slightly altered presentation. Duke 64 is has a much brighter pulpy vibe than Duke 3D due to the changes like setting the LA city stuff during the day, Duke's more up-beat "smirkish" performance versus his more angry "gritted" tone. So I consider them distinct alternatives to each other. Otherwise I would have just lumped them all together. Duke 64 has a more conventional opening. Just enough to bring new comers up to speed.

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#76

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 18 November 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Yes. I never said they were different. I said Duke Nukem 64 gives you more of a story before starting you off. Commando Nukem said "It literally is "Damn those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride." That's all you get, and for the most part it's really all you need." and I was just pointing out that you get a little more than that in the N64 port. That's all.

Yeah. but other than like two lines about DN1+2 (which isn't even this game's plot), all of that is in the original game if you read the info screen like you're supposed to. Eurocom made accompanying pictures, but that's pretty much it.
It's a bit more than "those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride", but only slightly. It's also "this is your ride, this is you, this is LA" then they shoot it down. Which is enough, as the rest of the story is presented during the game for the player to piece together if they care to.

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#77

Yep. Agreed.

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