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Take-Two Sues 3D Realms  "^"

User is offline   Techbot 

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#61

View Postmegamustaine, on May 15 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

Yes actually, I think the Duke character and universe fit quite well within the T2 company. What is a real Duke game anyways? More Duke games have been put out than 3DR has been developer on. Duke is not a hard character to get a grasp on. Obviously I hope 3DR retains the rights and releases DNF but it wouldn't be a bad thing if Take 2 got development rights on it.


This is one of the most interesting things I've noticed since this whole '3DR closing down' thing came about - a lot of people are acting like 3DR is the only dev on the planet who could do Duke any justice. In actual fact, I think there are stacks of devs who could do the franchise proud and I don't see why one of Take-Two's dev studios couldn't be one of them. It's sad that 3DR are more or less out of the picture now, but that doesn't change the fact that Duke hasn't exactly thrived under their control.

- Paul
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User is offline   Babe 

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#62

When is the court hearing coming up, which date ?
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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

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#63

View PostTechbot, on May 14 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

This is one of the most interesting things I've noticed since this whole '3DR closing down' thing came about - a lot of people are acting like 3DR is the only dev on the planet who could do Duke any justice. In actual fact, I think there are stacks of devs who could do the franchise proud and I don't see why one of Take-Two's dev studios couldn't be one of them. It's sad that 3DR are more or less out of the picture now, but that doesn't change the fact that Duke hasn't exactly thrived under their control.

- Paul


Yes he did. They were coming up with concepts, or having people come to them with concepts and passing it around like candy. From 1991 to 2005 Duke was on PC, GBC, GBA. Playstation, Sega Saturn N64, and Mobile phones. He almost made it to PS2. Duke 1-2-3D, TTK, LOTB, Zero Hour, Manhatten Project, Bikini Project, Mobile, Mobile 3D, Duke Color, Duke Advanced, Total Meltdown, 64, Saturn.... Duke did just fine as an IP under 3DR, they did just about everything possible with the character, and they werent afraid to try new things. Duke Nukem Forever is simply the victim of 3DR wanting to do RIGHT by their fan base and give them something that was not only as good as 3D, but actually a major improvement and leap ahead.

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User is offline   BxB402 

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#64

View PostTechbot, on May 14 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

This is one of the most interesting things I've noticed since this whole '3DR closing down' thing came about - a lot of people are acting like 3DR is the only dev on the planet who could do Duke any justice. In actual fact, I think there are stacks of devs who could do the franchise proud and I don't see why one of Take-Two's dev studios couldn't be one of them. It's sad that 3DR are more or less out of the picture now, but that doesn't change the fact that Duke hasn't exactly thrived under their control.

- Paul



I kind of see it as if Someone other than Kevin Smith tried to write and direct a Clerks or Jay and Silent Bob movie. Sure...it could be done decently and the chars could be the same...but the spirit of it would be lost because only Kevin Smith really knows what it's about and what can make it good. Same with 3DR and Duke.

Think of it like this. Would you be happy if someone other than Bethesda developed an Elder Scrolls game? Someone other than ID did Doom4 or somone other than Valve did a Half-Life game?

Unless the original makers that made thos egames great had at least some say in what was done...it would never be faithful to the IP as we could hope.
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User is offline   dalbrech 

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#65

Looks as though my guess the Broussard was not making a statement on the advice of his lawyers might have been right on the money.
It's a clear breach of contract suit. I can't say I am surprised.
I have no love for Take 2, but also feel that 3dRealms screwed up so badly that they might well have left themselves wide open for court action.
Take 2 might not have put any money directly into the game, but the paid 12 Million for the rights to publish, and they , quiet understandaly want to try to get their money back,or at least send a message that you can squirm out of a contract with them quite that easy.
It's too early to take sides, or proclaim one side as the good guys or one side as the bad guys. At least we will get a better picture of how close the game was to conpletion. If it is not much above 60%, then what little respect I have for Broussard as a project manager..and it's not much at this point.goes out the window.
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User is offline   zchri9 

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#66

Seriously what the fuck :P
This is ridiculous.
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User is offline   Kennerado 

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#67

Wow, well they do have a good case I guess.
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User is offline   Techbot 

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#68

View PostCommando Nukem, on May 15 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

Yes he did. They were coming up with concepts, or having people come to them with concepts and passing it around like candy. From 1991 to 2005 Duke was on PC, GBC, GBA. Playstation, Sega Saturn N64, and Mobile phones. He almost made it to PS2. Duke 1-2-3D, TTK, LOTB, Zero Hour, Manhatten Project, Bikini Project, Mobile, Mobile 3D, Duke Color, Duke Advanced, Total Meltdown, 64, Saturn.... Duke did just fine as an IP under 3DR, they did just about everything possible with the character, and they werent afraid to try new things. Duke Nukem Forever is simply the victim of 3DR wanting to do RIGHT by their fan base and give them something that was not only as good as 3D, but actually a major improvement and leap ahead.


View PostBxB402, on May 15 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

I kind of see it as if Someone other than Kevin Smith tried to write and direct a Clerks or Jay and Silent Bob movie. Sure...it could be done decently and the chars could be the same...but the spirit of it would be lost because only Kevin Smith really knows what it's about and what can make it good. Same with 3DR and Duke.

Think of it like this. Would you be happy if someone other than Bethesda developed an Elder Scrolls game? Someone other than ID did Doom4 or somone other than Valve did a Half-Life game?

Unless the original makers that made thos egames great had at least some say in what was done...it would never be faithful to the IP as we could hope.


Ok, I think I've not been clear here. When I've been suggesting that Duke would be fine under other devs, I've been thinking more in the sense that Prey was fine under Human Head - i.e. other developers are perfectly capable of building the game so long as they have the creative forces from 3DR overseeing the project. I'm still operating under the assumption that even if DNF does get handed over to another dev to finish, 3DR (as the owners of the IP) will continue to oversee the project creatively.

As for the Duke franchise thriving under 3DR, I think you're right in the sense that they've kept Duke in motion with plenty of games, but on the other hand they've also allowed him to become arguably the biggest industry joke in the history of gaming. I'm sure they had the best of intentions all the while, but unfortunately it doesn't undo the damage.

- Paul
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User is offline   megamustaine 

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#69

Even if 3DR lost the IP and T2 got it, I think Duke would be fine. Duke fits within the T2 mold of games, and I think T2 would be smart enough to understand what makes Duke work.
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User is offline   MrAdidaKing 

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#70

View PostRedcard, on May 14 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

If anyone got screwed over, it's Take 2. That's what the purpose of them filing a breach of contract is.

You can't say "I'll do this for X amount of money" and then not do "this" without a consequence.

As for George selling the property, it's likely that he'll have to give a few million bucks back , and if 3dr goes into bankruptcy, than a judge will sell its assets and determines who gets what.





I see this being the outcome. They want the rights to that game. I feel like GB owes them that. I hope T2 gets the rights. If they do, DN4 will see the light of day,
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User is offline   Techbot 

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#71

View Postmegamustaine, on May 15 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

Even if 3DR lost the IP and T2 got it, I think Duke would be fine. Duke fits within the T2 mold of games, and I think T2 would be smart enough to understand what makes Duke work.


I think you're right. The guys at 3DR are awesome, no question, but the gaming industry has gotta be teeming with equally smart, savvy, talented professionals.

- Paul
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#72

Take Two may not be so "off-key" from Duke as you may think. They did produce Serious Sam II, after all. That's good enough for me.

But I doubt Broussard would be working with them to develop the game -- assuming he loses the case, of course. I'm not going to think about what he'll do if he wins.
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User is offline   BxB402 

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#73

View PostThe Bounty Haunter, on May 15 2009, 01:00 AM, said:

Take Two may not be so "off-key" from Duke as you may think. They did produce Serious Sam II, after all. That's good enough for me.

But I doubt Broussard would be working with them to develop the game -- assuming he loses the case, of course. I'm not going to think about what he'll do if he wins.

Seems to me the only thing that could come of George winning this suit would be the imminent release of DNF, completed by 3DR. What else would keep this case from being a win for T2?
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User is offline   Nihilanth 

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#74

Didn't see that coming. O_O

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#75

Possibly completed by them. If not 3DR, then probably Apogee or Human Head.

But I would definitely trust Take-Two with the franchise.

People, you're forgetting that the game has a script, has set gameplay mechanics and set features and such. Take-Two would just take it from there to finish the game, assuming they win the IP and the game. You all are also forgetting the dozens of Duke Nukem games released for PSX and Nintendo 64 and those developers -- those who survived, anyway.
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User is offline   ThePinkus 

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#76

I want more Zero Hour games.

If I have to sacrifice DNF for 5 Zero Hour like games, then I would do it.
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User is offline   Micki! 

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#77

FUCK..!

A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'
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User is offline   Dennis 

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#78

Sue them, let them bleed.

Hope that they lose the ip, and that someone else could finish the game.

This post has been edited by Dennis: 15 May 2009 - 12:55 AM

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User is offline   High Treason 

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#79

This is not good. :-(

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User is offline   Reaper_Man 

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#80

View PostRamen4ever, on May 14 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

What do you think are the most possible outcomes of this lawsuit, msleeper?


Hard to say, I have almost no knowledge of corporate law much less any statistical data in terms of rulings, my little legal background isn't anything quite that serious. But if everyone wants to put their "totally unfounded theory" hat with me for a second, I can at least make sense of what the pages are, so let's begin. First, and most importantly, everyone really needs to stop humanizing this. Yes we all care about Duke and about the 3DR name, but this is the gritty inhospitable corporate world. All of that name and face and a decade of want and emotion doesn't mean squat when Corporate Entity A says that Corporate Entity B did something wrong and owes them X amount of dollars.

  • Page one is crap, literally a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo. The only fact of interest is that the initial hearing is on June 4th. This is the first chance that 3DR / Apogee will have to get the case dismissed.
  • Page two, three, and the last lines of page one is where the papers say that 3DR is not allowed to sell or distribute any copies of the game, and they have to cease any work on the game (laugh out loud), and deliver a copy of the data to the lawyers of both parties. This is so 3DR can't work on the game between now and the hearing (laugh out loud again) to alter the game in their favor by putting in extra work to make it look like it was further along than it was.
  • Page four and five are crap, they're processing and filing forms.
  • Page six is the lawyer saying that "yes this case is valid and that 3DR breached a contract with Take Two which cost them millions."

A completely positive result would be the legal entity of 3D Realms convincing a judge that they did not break their contract - whatever that may be - with Take Two, and the case would be thrown out after the hearing on June 4th. I think this is very very unlikely; Take Two said publicly that they never were in a financial contract with 3DR, so it was never their responsibility to help fund the game. A completely negative result - and to be quite honest, as much as it hurts to say this - a very likely outcome, is that the court rules in favor of Take Two at the hearing, and it will proceed to a full court case at some point later in time. At this point, nobody has won, but 3DR has lost the first battle.

So assuming it does pass at hearing, and it does go to a full case, then what? Well, we honestly won't know until that happens. I'm not totally certain if Take Two can specify "hey we want this, this and this" if the case goes in their favor at the end of it all. From how I understand it, if the case does go in Take Two's favor, then 3DR will owe Take Two whatever the court rules, and they'll have X amount of time to pay that debt. This puts 3DR in a really really tricky spot, because okay let's play pretend for a second. Take Two wins, and 3DR has 90 days to pay $30 million (made up number!). 3DR just went under a number of months ago at that point, so they probably don't have any money, so what do you do? Sell everything you can, is the likely answer!

Another very likely scenario is that the case will be resolved privately. You've heard that on the news, how a case between 2 companies is dismissed because they settled out of court. Frankly, I think this would be the best scenario. If you're George and you're facing a possibly $30 million bill (made up!), if you can convince Take Two to take some controling interest in your company rather than sell the farm, it's a win-kinda-win situation. Maybe, just maybe, 3DR gets the funding to finish the game, we get to see the "3D Realms" logo when we boot up the game... and then 3DR is enslaved to make X more Duke titles within Y amount of time, and Take Two gets Z percent of profits.

So who knows. I do want to point out that, worst case scenario, 3DR totally loses everything and they owe Take Two however much, that this does not necessarily mean that Take Two will suddenly absorb 3D Realms, or Duke Forever, or the Duke IP. At that point, which will be months down the road, a lot will be uncertain - and frankly, probably never publicly stated.

I do want to say this - The fact that the court is ordering the game files to transfer hands to Take Two has just increased the likelyhood of a leak tenfold, which is frankly pretty bad news for everyone. The people at 3DR poured their hearts, minds, souls and tears into making Duke Nukem Forever. Take Two didn't. That, more than anything, is what I am concerned about. A game leak could destroy everything, and as much as I want to play the game that I've been waiting around since I was 11 years old to be made, I would give up a hundred leaked versions, for a single "maybe" release.

The grim reality is that Take Two played it pretty smart here from a business perspective. I personally don't subscribe to the "5 million request / 30 million counter offer" everyone is aware of. Some of that just doesn't add up. But to at least be conservitive, we know that 3DR went to Take Two early in the year to show off the game. It's safe to bet that Take Two was not impressed, and assuming the 5 mil / 30 mil is a fabrication, it was a matter of time before 3DR was going to tank, and it would be fairly standard procedure for Take Two to pick up the pieces of it's investment.

But really, we don't know. We won't know anything until after June 4th. So please, for the love of god, stop with the conspiracy theories and the publicity stunt BS. People lost their jobs, and now this is going to court. Shit, as they say, just got real.

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This post has been edited by msleeper: 15 May 2009 - 01:09 AM

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User is offline   HorrorshowChi 

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#81

I'm so glad 3DR got sued. I don't see how T2 won't win... That's what 3DR gets for not releasing their game and leading their fans and their investors on for 12+ years. At least we will get some kind of game eventually. The only bad part is the lawsuit will take Forever to resolve.

This post has been edited by HorrorshowChi: 15 May 2009 - 01:01 AM

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User is offline   peoplessi 

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#82

View PostHorrorshowChi, on May 15 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

I'm so glad 3DR got sued. I don't see how T2 won't win... That's what 3DR gets for not releasing their game and leading their fans and their investors on for 12+ years. At least we will get some kind of game eventually. The only bad part is the lawsuit will take Forever to resolve.


I'm so glad that people out-of-nowhere make stupid remarks... oh wait, I'm not. If you know how the deals that are between Take Two and 3D Realms, please elaborate, otherwise you need to shut the fuck up :P
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User is offline   SyntaxN 

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#83

What the...this is getting better and better. Knowing the crazy american law system, i can imagine that some judge will give TT the rights to finish DNF so they can have their money back. Something like that... :P
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User is offline   Reaper_Man 

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#84

View PostSyntaxN, on May 15 2009, 05:42 AM, said:

Knowing the crazy american law system, i can imagine that some judge will give TT the rights to finish DNF so they can have their money back. Something like that... :P


Yeah that's just crazy to think a company that invested million of dollars should get some return. Madness!

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User is offline   storm8ring3r 

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#85

so 100 pages of speculation over at the 3DR forums and 50 pages over here and noone ever mentioned the possibility of T2 suing 3DR. That is not what I call a good record

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User is offline   Kennerado 

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#86

Anyone see Scott Miller's comment on Shack?!

Quote

By: ScottMi11er x Show Full Post
Reply
>>> Did Take Two give 3DR that $12 million for development <<<

No. We didn't get a penny of that money. This, along with so much else, is 100% spin, being eaten up by those who have no clue whatsoever. But, we cannot talk yet. We will, soon...


Hmm!

This post has been edited by Kennerado: 15 May 2009 - 02:51 AM

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User is offline   William Gee 

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#87

I hope 3DRealms eats TT for breakfast. No I hope they rip their head of and shit down their neck.
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User is offline   Raziel 

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#88

That's what I've been trying to tell people... I don't know why people are supporting Take Two, they are twisting the truth down to hell to suit their purposes. They never as far as I'm aware gave anything for the development of DNF, the developers ALWAYS wanted to fully fund it on their own. The 12 million is what TT paid the previous publisher to steal the rights to release DNF without 3DRealms' consent. Furthermore, they talk about an arrangement made with 3D Realms... this is referring to a contract that was forced onto 3D Realms which basically just stated they would give 3D Realms half a million (if memory serves) if they rush the game and get it out before the end of the year. 3D Realms publicly stated they won't rush the game to get it out by then. There was never any agreed date for release or anything, and take two never paid 3D Realms any money for its development. They did give the original publisher money but 3D Realms has nothing to do with that, did not gain anything from it, and just ended up with a bunch of assholes as a publisher. TT paid for the rights out of their own stupidity, they can't blame 3D Realms now even though I agree that perhaps they didn't handle DNF in the best way either...
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User is offline   ReaperMan 

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#89

Wow this is just stupid. First TT didn't give 3DR the money they needed and then they sue 3DR for not finnishing the development of the game? Sounds like TT was after the Duke Nukem IP all along.
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User is offline   storm8ring3r 

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#90

View PostThePinkus, on May 15 2009, 08:24 AM, said:

I want more Zero Hour games.

If I have to sacrifice DNF for 5 Zero Hour like games, then I would do it.


I actually played Zero Hour back in the day for hours on end, and the multiplayer was genius. It was the right up there with goldeneye 007 and perfect dark as far as fps were concerned. It was really a very very very very good game, and this proves the point that not all non 3dr duke games have to suck like Manhattan Project. I personally think that this legal case will act as a catalyst for DNF and that we will finally get it, and that we will like it. It's too important to screw up, and sticking to the duke forumla is really not hard, you can sum it up in a few sentences

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