[folkefiendar]

William Gee, on May 14 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

Isn't the fact that the court documents are now posted on the net breaching confidentiality, so they case is now null?

They are public documents obtainable via the new york supreme court.

[Delicieuxz]

folkefiendar, on May 14 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

Here's the court documents filed by take 2:


First 3 are the most important. Looks like all Duke related materials (they direct apogee in this, so could it effect the trilogy in an indirect way?) are in lockdown. I wouldn't expect anymore leaks of duke info/screens/gameplay/game design docs unless someone at 3drealms has BALLS OF STEEL (one could only hope). Gonna be tied up in the new york supreme court for a while so don't expect any duke any time soon.

Those papers make it completely clear that Take-Two want DNF one way or the other. 3dR have to make a case to the judge why they should not be ordered to refrain from altering the game as it is while the lawsuit proceeds, as well as handing a copy of it over to T2.

It looks like Weider is right. If Take-Two are successful with their petition, 3dR will be legally unable to continue to develop DNF before the suit is completed - at which time they may have to hand the whole project over to T2. Terrible situation, and who knows how close 3dR may have been towards finding a solution to their funds problem.

[Raziel]

I was under the impression that Take Two never actually gave any money to fund the game?

Anyway, this is really bad... if Apogee gets sued, TT might be happy because they get their money they didn't get through DNF, but what do you think happens to the game then??? Right now, George still hasen't said the game won't come out, so I've been under the assumption that he still had a plan to complete it.

Can't you guys see? Take-Two just heavily screwed us over and proved they only care about their own profits, not the destiny of the game. I'm sorry, but the court isn't going to rule "complete the game", it will rule, "loss of revenue of 1 billion $" -> heavy fine for a company already struggling to pay for the development.

Also, if the rumours are correct and 3DR approached TT, then isn't it TT's fault that DNF got canned in the first place? Why in the hell is everyone suddenly taking their side?

[staffcarguy]

William Gee, on May 14 2009, 10:58 PM, said:

Isn't the fact that the court documents are now posted on the net breaching confidentiality, so they case is now null?

i doubt it. this doesn't exactly disclose everything it just discloses the court orders. case details like example gb bashed the owner of take 2's head in with a wrench pipe that sort of info would have to be confident. but court orders and such are public knowledge mostly.

+ upon readings this in TMP3 it says copies have to be delivered to a law firm as well. that means someone actually is going to get a copy of dnf one way or another lol

[Redcard]

Raziel, on May 14 2009, 08:03 PM, said:

I was under the impression that Take Two never actually gave any money to fund the game?

Apparently that's not the case.

Apparently damages are in the "millions."

And T2 had to pay SOMETHING for the distribution rights, and I suspect there was another something for the deal in 2007. By law, they HAVE to pay for or transfer something for it to be a valid contract.

[folkefiendar]

Raziel, on May 14 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

I was under the impression that Take Two never actually gave any money to fund the game?

Nobody is certain as to the terms of the original contract that Take Two took over, and the new renegotiated contract that came in 2007 outside of probably 5 dudes and a couple lawyers. For all we know they could have given George and co. one of their temp's first born and half a mule. Or it could be millions of dollars. We'll find out soon enough when more is filed.

[Kathy]

Well, that's just getting better and better. I think, no one suspected this to happen.

At least, conspiracy theories will go away. Publicity stunt? Yeah, right.

Quote

Can't you guys see? Take-Two just heavily screwed us over and proved they only care about their own profits, not the destiny of the game. I'm sorry, but the court isn't going to rule "complete the game", it will rule, "loss of revenue of 1 billion $" -> heavy fine for a company already struggling to pay for the development.

Stop it. Stop about this whole "T2 screwed us". 3dRealms's management screwed up. They were not able to create the game and also were not able to handle the company financialy. That's a failure in both departments. Industry veterans my ass.

Take-Two just want their money back. And yes, they are corporation, they do care about money foremost.

[Rafael]

Lotan, on May 14 2009, 08:09 PM, said:

Well, that's just getting better and better. I think, no one suspected this to happen.

At least, conspiracy theories will go away. Publicity stunt my ass.

Agreed!

[Thndr]

If the rumor that 3DR approached TT for financing and provided adequate amount of material to give beyond a reasonable doubt that the project is nearing completion, and TT refused, isn't that negligence on the contract by the part of TT and they essentially forced them to shut down due to lack of funding (Therefor by proxy forcing them to violate contract)?

Or would the fact that TT offered to fund them in exchange for the IP and them refusing that make it so that there was no trickery on TT's part? (the $30mil rumor, of course.)

Edit:
Also, What is the specific detail that made it a breach of contract? It couldn't have been the game being cancelled, as there has yet to be news on that (Still hopefuly myself >_>)

---------------

Those questions aside, it seems to be the standard sleazeball move by the former music execs running TT now. Esentially forcing someone to comply with them. Unless 3DR gets awesome lawyers to find a loophole (which probably got closed up in 2006/7's TT/3DR talk or whatever), or someone offers to buy the production rights, it seems that 3DR/ApogeeSoftware will become assets of TT (and maybe even the Duke Nukem IP as well)


And Duke Nukem becoming the property of take two will result in the milking of a cash cow. Horrible games raping the franchise and maybe even shovelware. Not a fate you'd want for a great series.

[Ramen4ever]

EviL AnGeL, on May 14 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

Not being funny but could they handle it any worse than 3DR? I think right now Duke is better off given to anybody who could at least then try and do the IP some justice.

I was thinking though that If T2 paid 12 million for the rights and another undisclosed deal in 2007 (say 10 million for the sake of argument) plus the 5 million they were rumored to ask for this year then that's 27 million. Considering how well DNF would sell it doesn't seem like an awful lot to lay out compared to the potential rewards.

I know they probably got sick of the bullshit but taking all that into account and because the game really did seem close, from a purely business and financial point of view it seems like a really dumb move.

That's a different handling. I don't care about development cycles. Just because take 2 can squeeze a shitpiece out every 6 months doesn't mean it would be good. Though one could argue that getting a game is better than not getting a game. And while that would be true for me with DNF.. provided that its the DNF 3dr and George was working on. I don't think I could be pressed to give a flying fuck about any of Take 2's versions of the Duke Nukem Franchise. I'd obviously check it out before making judgment but it would take some serious awesomeness to convince me.

[Raziel]

Lotan, on May 14 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

Stop it. Stop about this whole "T2 screwed us". 3dRealms's management screwed up. They were not able to create the game and also were not able to handle the company financialy. That's a failure in both departments. Industry veterans my ass.

You're missing my point, yes, I agree 3DR screwed up badly... but right now, what TT is doing will pretty much prevent any chance of the game seeing the light of day. What's going to happen is simple, TT gets a copy of the game they can keep (but not do anything with) for themselves and Apogee gets sued beyond repair.

In that document I don't see anything about TT being allowed to release the game as is or getting someone else to complete it, I only see them demanding a copy for safekeeping. I'm not a lawyer though (not evil enough) so I could be reading it wrong, plus the bits that are scratched out makes it hard to read some parts.

I still strongly believe George had a plan to save it, if I'm right and there was a plan, then TT clearly just messed things up. Admittedly, if my suspicions are correct (and I won't discuss them publicly), then he was planning to screw over TT quite badly. I guess Take-Two were thinking along the same lines I was and decided to reverse the situation.

[staffcarguy]

Raziel, on May 14 2009, 11:27 PM, said:

"I'm not a lawyer though (not evil enough)"

hell i'd be willing to sell my soul and go through law school to work for one of these law firms just to get my hands on a copy of the game and call it "case research".

serious note. this does not suprise me though it is possible that take two just wants there money i am willing to give both companies the benefit of the doubt but that's almost unrealistic considering were discussing mega million companies here whos number 1 concern is money and doesn't care who they have to walk over or shit on to get more of it.

Edit: the 2nd part of this post has been edited due to the high amounts of stupidity contained in it.

[Reaper_Man]

If you don't know what the documents mean, please don't spread heresy by trying to interpret them.

What they say is that 3DR needs to give Take Two a copy of the assets, to ensure that nothing is changed between the court order and whatever the verdict is. That's all.

[BxB402]

msleeper, on May 14 2009, 10:38 PM, said:

If you don't know what the documents mean, please don't spread heresy by trying to interpret them.

What they say is that 3DR needs to give Take Two a copy of the assets, to ensure that nothing is changed between the court order and whatever the verdict is. That's all.

and T2 doesn't seem to know exactly how much is finished. Which is why i said how this will go could be changed depending on percentage of completion...especially what we will eventually see gamewise.

If it's 80 or even 90% finished....it's entirely possible to drop the lawsuit and make them finish it up ASAP instead of both parties wasting time with lawyers and crap. They would both get MUCH more money out of it by releasing the game.

[Ramen4ever]

What do you think are the most possible outcomes of this lawsuit, msleeper?

[Delicieuxz]

BxB402, on May 14 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

If it's 80 or even 90% finished....it's entirely possible to drop the lawsuit and make them finish it up ASAP instead of both parties wasting time with lawyers and crap. They would both get MUCH more money out of it by releasing the game.

Unless, of course, Take-Two are after the Duke Nukem IP.

[BxB402]

Delicieuxz, on May 14 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Unless, of course, Take-Two are after the Duke Nukem IP.

True. I just don't understand how exactly they would have the right to even ask for the IP when all they had stake in was one game.

I just hope they can settle out of court for 3DR to provide a finished product and they can all get their money back they all spent and go their seperate ways. *Optimism*

[Trooper Dan]

From what I can tell, it's in 3DR's interests to claim the game was almost finished, while it's in T2's interests to claim that the game was not anywhere close to being finished. This should be entertaining.

[Delicieuxz]

BxB402, on May 14 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

True. I just don't understand how exactly they would have the right to even ask for the IP when all they had stake in was one game.

The legal papers say they are seeking "equitable relief." That means they want compensation for their invested $12 million. That compensation could be the Duke Nukem IP (or not), since 3dR obviously doesn't have any millions to finish development with..

[megamustaine]

I really don't get why people say T2 will milk the cash cow. Please give me one good example? Look how long it has taken them to try and capitalize on the MP franchise. Although I'm definitely hoping against T2's wishes at this point, the cash cow statement doesn't fly with me.

[BxB402]

DeeperThought, on May 14 2009, 11:00 PM, said:

From what I can tell, it's in 3DR's interests to claim the game was almost finished, while it's in T2's interests to claim that the game was not anywhere close to being finished. This should be entertaining.

Neither can say anything. T2 is asking for all materials to be confinscated for the case. So whatever percentage it was complete will be knowlege for the court. There will be no He said/she said BS on that point. but (broken record) the actual percentage complete will be a deciding factor in how this case goes.

[Raziel]

BxB402, on May 14 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

If it's 80 or even 90% finished....it's entirely possible to drop the lawsuit and make them finish it up ASAP instead of both parties wasting time with lawyers and crap. They would both get MUCH more money out of it by releasing the game.

There is less than 10% to go on the game, if you take the creation and date of last edit on the leaked documents and do the math, it is estimated to be around 94% complete, assuming of course they worked at a constant rate. To back that up, Broussard did recently state that they have about 71 tasks remaining out of 800-900 when they started. So I would say yes, the game is basically done.

To be perfectly honest with you, I would say the game would probably be in a releasable state if the employees got together for about a week just to tie up any loose ends of things they just started working on before the company went under. In the games industry you usually do the breadth of the project first and just do tweaking and adding polish towards the end. 3DR seemed to follow the same approach as it has been stated (for the previous iteration) that they are just polishing the game and making more things interactive.

What this means is that TT could get the game now and just have the employees remove anything they just started adding to the game since the last milestone, then release it as is. What it means for us as gamers is that you might walk up to a computer terminal you expect to be able to interact with, but it simply won't do anything. This of course won't break the game, but it is stuff 3DR would have wanted working in the final version of the game. Other than that the game should be perfectly playable all the way through to the end. There will probably also be a few more outstanding bugs that are minor enough that most players probably wouldn't notice it. Of course, George stated they 'closed a milestone' recently which suggests that all features that they just added to the game should be complete... so if TT gets that version and not the one they started developing on again, then it should all be stable and releasable.

Take care.

[BxB402]

Delicieuxz, on May 14 2009, 11:01 PM, said:

The legal papers say they are seeking "equitable relief." That means they want compensation for their invested $12 million. That compensation could be the Duke Nukem IP (or not), since 3dR obviously doesn't have any millions to finish development with..

The Duke IP has to be worth WAY more than 12 mil, though. Especially with the Duke Trilogy and Duke3D on XBL. Unless the judge is a complete jackass.

[Ramen4ever]

DeeperThought, on May 14 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

From what I can tell, it's in 3DR's interests to claim the game was almost finished, while it's in T2's interests to claim that the game was not anywhere close to being finished. This should be entertaining.

When you put it that way.. yes. http://forums.duke4....tyle_emoticons/default/ted.gif

megamustaine, on May 14 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

I really don't get why people say T2 will milk the cash cow. Please give me one good example? Look how long it has taken them to try and capitalize on the MP franchise. Although I'm definitely hoping against T2's wishes at this point, the cash cow statement doesn't fly with me.

Cash cow as in for the money.. might not become a genuine cash cow. But do you think Take 2 would release a duke game that is on par character wise to the previous games in the Duke franchise? They might not milk it but I wouldn't exactly expect em to make a real duke game either.

It would kind of be like trusting your neighbor with your car to drive your kids.

[Trooper Dan]

BxB402, on May 14 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

Neither can say anything. T2 is asking for all materials to be confinscated for the case. So whatever percentage it was complete will be knowlege for the court. There will be no He said/she said BS on that point.

Oh, but that's where you're wrong. Even with all the materials at hand, the percentage completed is very debatable and somewhat subjective. It depends on what the goals were for the project, how those goals are interpreted, and which standards are being applied. What if a level has completed geometry and texturing but no lighting or gameplay? Is it 50% finished? 75%? The same kinds of questions could be asked about the weapons, enemies, music, etc. What if the design document calls for a certain level that wasn't even started? 3DR could say that they didn't really need the level and were going to change the plan to get rid of it. So does that count against them or not? You see, it's very debatable.

[BxB402]

DeeperThought, on May 14 2009, 11:10 PM, said:

Oh, but that's where you're wrong. Even with all the materials at hand, the percentage completed is very debatable and somewhat subjective. It depends on what the goals were for the project, how those goals are interpreted, and which standards are being applied. What if a level has completed geometry and texturing but no lighting or gameplay? Is it 50% finished? 75%? The same kinds of questions could be asked about the weapons, enemies, music, etc. What if the design document calls for a certain level that wasn't even started? 3DR could say that they didn't really need the level and were going to change the plan to get rid of it. So does that count against them or not? You see, it's very debatable.

True. Hopefully 3DR kept detailed records of completion, what was going to be cut, what needed to be finished, ect. The less they have detailed the harder it will be on them.

[megamustaine]

Ramen4ever, on May 14 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

Cash cow as in for the money.. might not become a genuine cash cow. But do you think Take 2 would release a duke game that is on par character wise to the previous games in the Duke franchise? They might not milk it but I wouldn't exactly expect em to make a real duke game either.

It would kind of be like trusting your neighbor with your car to drive your kids. http://forums.duke4....tyle_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

Yes actually, I think the Duke character and universe fit quite well within the T2 company. What is a real Duke game anyways? More Duke games have been put out than 3DR has been developer on. Duke is not a hard character to get a grasp on. Obviously I hope 3DR retains the rights and releases DNF but it wouldn't be a bad thing if Take 2 got development rights on it.

[staffcarguy]

msleeper, on May 14 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

If you don't know what the documents mean, please don't spread heresy by trying to interpret them.

What they say is that 3DR needs to give Take Two a copy of the assets, to ensure that nothing is changed between the court order and whatever the verdict is. That's all.

that makes a lot more sense then what i said. that never crossed my mind really.

i need to learn to shut my mouth 90% of the things i say are wrong. damn my lack of being able to grasp information. ever since i got here i seem to just be apologizing for saying the stupidest things i could ever say.

but thank you for bringing that out allowing me to better understand this situation.

[Babe]

Oh man, finally a new drama coming up. I did suspect Geroge is upto to something to deny TT publishing rights, and get into another agreement with someone else after restructuring 3DR and get a whole lot of money for the new aggrement. There can be no doubt he was up to something when he dissolve his firm when the game was so complete to finishing. So I think it was right for T2 to go on attack beforehand. Blaming T2 to recoup there money was useless when 3DR was not able to deliver the game for years and rather said T2 should STFU.

Without going into conflict as to who is right or wrong however, all I now want is T2 and Geroge getting into an out of court settlement and Geroge finishing the game in the coming months and releasing it. That way George doesnt end up in the footpath completely broke, and the game comes out too. The game comes out, T2 will make their cash, George will make his cash and we gamers get our game. Win win win situation for all.

[BxB402]

Geroge sounds french. lol